Israel practicing Eugenics on "non ethnically correct" Jews.

[Scouse]

On Jewish birth rate and it's effect on demographics in the middle east:

While Arab demography is imploding, Israel’s Jewish demography benefits from a tailwind – a 56 percent surge in the number of annual Jewish births between 1995 and 2011...
In 1995, the Jewish births constituted 69% of total births, compared with 76% in 2011. In 1995, there were 2.34 Jewish births per one Arab birth, compared with 3.2 Jewish births per one Arab birth in 2011...
Jewish demography is further bolstered by immigration, an unprecedented flow of returning expatriates...
A proactive aliyah policy would leverage the global economic and political circumstances in the former Soviet states, France, England, Argentina and the U.S. It could produce a wave of 500,000 Jewish immigrants during the next 10 years, catapulting the current 66% Jewish majority – in the combined area of Judea, Samaria and pre-1967 Israel – to an 80% Jewish majority by 2035.

Obvious demographic war is obvious...

 

[rynnor]

You had a pop at the credentials of the reporter - accusing them of having an anti-jewish "spin" - and I pointed out that the reporter was a Jewish Israeli.

/point won

I'm afraid you are adding your own bits in - I never accused them of an anti-jewish spin - I also think its rather revealing that you seem to have a difficulty seperating Jewishness from Israel - its quite possible for Jews to live elsewhere and not like Israel like anyone else.

What I was actually suggesting is that the reporter (or his/her editor) spiced it up a bit to sell papers.

 

[rynnor]

Why would that be?

Oh, yes, to fill the illegal settlements. But it doesn't want to "dilute" the gene pool so whilst it's enabling "jewish" immigration to fulfill it's short-term political land-grab aims it certainly doesn't want them niggers breeding - it'd be nice if that population died out in the long term so the houses could be freed up for pure ethnic jews - so it's filling them full of long-term contraceptives.

Rhetoric from you - how unexpected

Its a nice conspiracy theory <dons tinfoil hat> but dont you think that a people who are still in an uneasy state of war might have an increase in births.

There are tensions with the Ethiopian immigrants I think its more complicated than racial purity.

The original immigrants that Israel brought over were the practicing ethiopean jews - more recently they extended the invitation to those of jewish descent but who had converted (sometimes by force) to christianity/islam. It is these later immigrants (who outnumber the practicing ones) who have faced issues but its something the society will have to work through.

 

[Scouse]

Rhetoric from you - how unexpected

It's certainly not rhetoric. It's an openly-spoken-about policy that has been debated in the UN.

Its a nice conspiracy theory <dons tinfoil hat> but dont you think that a people who are still in an uneasy state of war might have an increase in births.

If that was the case then Arab birth rates wouldn't be crashing whilst jewish birth rate soars.

Look at the figures I've provided - which rebuff your ideas.

Look at the source of the figures - they're a very pro-israeli newspaper. Their "vision", spelled out for all to see, includes this little snippet:

To Remember We Are Israelis: We at Israel Hayom are committed to acting in a spirit which represents our Israeliness, the Zionism and the ideals upon which the State of Israel was founded and built.

The facts speak against you rynnor.


And wanging the term "conspiracy theory" about in an attempt to cast doubt on an argument is weak. I'm going to apply a term to you that I think fits more aptly:

Denialist

 

[rynnor]

And wanging the term "conspiracy theory" about in an attempt to cast doubt on an argument is weak.

I got it from you sadly

 

[rynnor]

If that was the case then Arab birth rates wouldn't be crashing whilst jewish birth rate soars.

The Israeli population is a bit unusual though with a high proportion of breeding age migrant couples who have a sort of frontiersman attitude.

Look at the UK birthrate - it was crashing until we got mass immigration from Europe.

 

[Access Denied]

Look at the UK birthrate - it was crashing until we got mass immigration from Europe.

Which mean there were more homes and jobs. Not anymore.

 

[Job]

I cant speak for israel..never been there..but i havent liked every jewish pperson i have met without exception..theres just a simmering of arrogance in various guises that gets my back up.

 

[Scouse]

UN says all Israeli settlement activity in West Bank is unlawful and must cease immediately

...

 

[Raven]

Something else for them to laugh at.

 

[Scouse]

Something else for them to laugh at.

Aye. Along with their mates...

 

[rynnor]

Aye. Along with their mates...

Obvious thread derail is obvious - cant you post this under A a new thread or B Random or Annoying spam since it has zero to do with this thread.

 

[Scouse]

it has zero to do with this thread.

It does - it's why they can do all sorts of horrible shit with impunity - US support. And I'm saying "look at the sort of people who support Israel".

Israel has just launched an air attack on Syria. The US is speaking out for Israel (who remain silent - which is their policy). The US say that it's because Syria was arming Lebanon with defensive technology (god forbid that Lebanon can defend itself against Israeli airstrikes and regular airspace violations).

It's part of a wider pattern of supported criminality - and therefore relevant.

 

[rynnor]

If you widen up the topic too much it tends to destroy any sort of interesting discussion because people just fit it into wider generalised beliefs which dont leave much to debate because they are more emotional than factual.

 

[Scouse]

I don't disagree with that - but this thread looked like it was dying and was ripe for a widening anyway

 

[DaGaffer]

On Jewish birth rate and it's effect on demographics in the middle east:

Obvious demographic war is obvious...

Interesting analysis, shame its not true. The only significant middle eastern country that isn't outbreeding the Israelis is Iran (which is strange as the population is pretty young). Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq etc. all have higher birthrates. Even the Israeli Arabs have a higher birthrate than the Jewish Israelis as a whole. If the Israelis are trying to conduct a demographic war, they're not doing a very good job of it, and the idea they could impact the demographics of the middle-east as a whole is laughable anyway, as they are outnumbered by a factor of about 75 to 1.

 

[rynnor]

Interesting analysis, shame its not true. The only significant middle eastern country that isn't outbreeding the Israelis is Iran (which is strange as the population is pretty young). Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq etc. all have higher birthrates. Even the Israeli Arabs have a higher birthrate than the Jewish Israelis as a whole. If the Israelis are trying to conduct a demographic war, they're not doing a very good job of it, and the idea they could impact the demographics of the middle-east as a whole is laughable anyway, as they are outnumbered by a factor of about 75 to 1.

Isnt birth rate a bit of a misleading stat anyway because high birth rates tend to go hand in hand with high infant mortality?

You really want stats on survival to adulthood to see real impacts on demographics surely?

One arguement for the drop in birth rate for the ethiopian jews was that they had gone from dirt poor country to a rich country with decent health facilities = less kids dieing at a young age - birth rates tend to drop as affluence increases.

Infant Mortality rates

1 being the best - Israel = 20th - Ethiopia = 171st

 

[DaGaffer]

Isnt birth rate a bit of a misleading stat anyway because high birth rates tend to go hand in hand with high infant mortality?

You really want stats on survival to adulthood to see real impacts on demographics surely?

One arguement for the drop in birth rate for the ethiopian jews was that they had gone from dirt poor country to a rich country with decent health facilities = less kids dieing at a young age - birth rates tend to drop as affluence increases.

Infant Mortality rates

1 being the best - Israel = 20th - Ethiopia = 171st

Yes its a bit misleading (and you can get more granular, Orthodox Jews have the highest birthrates amongst the Israeli Jews, but aren't big on modern hospitals - you're shit out of luck if you decide to get born on a Saturday for instance), but on the other hand, you're not going to get past the fundamental issue that Israeli Jews are very unlikely to make a demographic impact on the Middle East overall.

 

[rynnor]

but on the other hand, you're not going to get past the fundamental issue that Israeli Jews are very unlikely to make a demographic impact on the Middle East overall.

Not by births certainly - cant completely rule out massive immigration but tbh most people dont want to live in a potential warzone.

 

[Scouse]

Israeli Jews are very unlikely to make a demographic impact on the Middle East overall.

They don't need to make a demographic impact on the middle east overall - they just need enough new blood to fill the illegal settlements - not the entire middle east.

Once a people are entrenched in an area you effectively own it - even if the UN says Israel should remove all it's settlers...

 

[rynnor]

They don't need to make a demographic impact on the middle east overall - they just need enough new blood to fill the illegal settlements - not the entire middle east.

Once a people are entrenched in an area you effectively own it - even if the UN says Israel should remove all it's settlers...

The UN is a sham though like its pre-decessor the League of Nations - when Italy invaded Ethiopia using chemical weapons all the bullshit about countries aiding each other against 'unlawful aggressors' was shown to be worthless.

Unless a country considers aiding as directly in its own benefit then they do nothing other than mouth condemnation. Whats the point of UN rulings if they are un-enforceable?

 

[Scouse]

The UN is a sham

:facepalm:


The UN is an enlightened attempt to try to get countries to abide by some measure of law as opposed to them acting effectively like children in a schoolyard.

Yes, of course it requires cooperation for it to work. To extend the analogy - ultimately you can't force adults to do what you want - you require adults to cooperate if things are going to work.

The alternative is a massive brawl and a huge pile of warring shite - which is why the UN exists - to attempt a "better way".


Israel are cunts for weakening it.

 

[rynnor]

:facepalm:


The UN is an enlightened attempt to try to get countries to abide by some measure of law as opposed to them acting effectively like children in a schoolyard.

Yes, of course it requires cooperation for it to work. To extend the analogy - ultimately you can't force adults to do what you want - you require adults to cooperate if things are going to work.

The alternative is a massive brawl and a huge pile of warring shite - which is why the UN exists - to attempt a "better way".


Israel are cunts for weakening it.

<cant tell if joking or real>

The UN is just a way for the unilateral decisions of the powers to look like they are actually the decisions of some sort of group of nations rather than naked self interest.

 

[Scouse]

The UN is just a way for the unilateral decisions of the powers to look like they are actually the decisions of some sort of group of nations rather than naked self interest.

Don't get me wrong. I know it's a long long way from perfect. A long way.

However, if it was as you seem to think - a way for unilateral decisions of powers to rubber stamp their own actions - then the "powers" in question wouldn't be funding the UN to produce the international pressure it puts on them. The US has been ruminating recently about how it'd like to pull out - why? Because it's becoming inconvenient to them.

Their support for israel, coupled with the UN's continued condemnations and accusations that israel is committing war crimes, creates pressure. Real pressure.

Without that there's nothing. NOTHING. No coordinated pressure on any country to act in a more civilised manner.

I.E. We regress back to the schoolyard. We become a bunch of squabbling individuals who form bullying gangs and the smaller people have no voice whatsoever.

The UN gives people a voice. It's given the Palestinians a voice recently - much to US and Israeli chagrin - israel are purposely speeding up their illegal settlement program because of this.

You don't react to nothing. Israel is reacting to real international pressure - pressure brought on them through the United Nations.

 

[rynnor]

Without that there's nothing. NOTHING. No coordinated pressure on any country to act in a more civilised manner.

Theres the court of international public opinion - thats all the UN is at its best tbh.

The powers still have the UN Security council with the power of unilateral veto of the UN doing anything they dont like.

The US just made noises to pressure those on the UN gravy train to vote as it would wish but theres no real prospect of them leaving as it gives a shell of legitimacy over their unilateral decisions.

 

[Scouse]

Theres the court of international public opinion - thats all the UN is at its best tbh

I don't hugely agree - there's more to the UN than that - but there is some truth in what you say. However, without the UN there's not even a court of international public opinion.

There's the schoolyard. And bullies. And no voice at all for the weak.

The powers still have the UN Security council with the power of unilateral veto of the UN doing anything they dont like.

I agree. The veto is a joke. But if that's what it takes to keep the bullies at the table...

The US just made noises to pressure those on the UN gravy train to vote as it would wish but theres no real prospect of them leaving as it gives a shell of legitimacy over their unilateral decisions.

In many ways yes - which is why it's so important they try to get "resolutions" to, say, start bombing Iraq.

Without the UN and the court of international opinion, however, the US would just bomb Iraq without even trying to jump through hoops.


By your own post you agree with me that the UN brings pressure to bear on countries - like the pressure it's putting on scummy scummy israel right now.

Yes, it's not perfect - but it's a much worse world without it.

 

[rynnor]

In many ways yes - which is why it's so important they try to get "resolutions" to, say, start bombing Iraq.

Without the UN and the court of international opinion, however, the US would just bomb Iraq without even trying to jump through hoops.

No - in these modern times of international media/internet etc. a country like the US will always want to present its actions as being somehow legitimate - the UN could disappear tomorrow but countries actions would still be under the microscope.

The UN changes nothing - its just a convenient system to legitimise actions - if it went another would arise because the need to legitimise actions would still exist.

Can you show one real thing that helped people on the ground in a weak country that wasnt in the interests of one of the powers?

 

[Scouse]

the UN could disappear tomorrow but countries actions would still be under the microscope.

Disagree completely. Utterly.

Can you show one real thing that helped people on the ground in a weak country that wasnt in the interests of one of the powers?

Aside from the bazillion other things I'll give you an example that's on-topic: The Palestinians are gaining legitimate recognition through the UN - directly against the interests of the powers.


Oh, and stuff like this making a difference "on the ground" the world over.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Rynnor complains about Scouse taking topic into too wide territory.
Shifts the discussion to the UN sucking.

 

[rynnor]

Rynnor complains about Scouse taking topic into too wide territory.
Shifts the discussion to the UN sucking.

You need to re-read it - Scouse went off to the UN I merely followed him