ISDN & Barrys Servers ???

[old.dredded]

Hi Guys,
Just a question about barrys servers,
I use ISDN,64k connection,
and im getting my ass kicked ,?????
It seems everytime i get close to a Player,
its just as if my quake3 slows down for a second and im killed??

I also goto another server Clan-(UiQ) OSP-1.0 Server.
The settings have been changed on it to include,>>
NO Timenudge
Maxpackets 40
server rate 8000

The difference this server is compared to a Barrys server is nothing short of amazing.
No Stopping when in a large fire fight,, etc.
Also before the above changes were made, it seemed like a typical Barrys OSP server,Laggy as hell,? Ping going from 50
to 70 or 80 when u try to frag someone or get close to someone.
Now it feels Like q3 117 server.SMOOOOOTH and FAST.
And for the first time i can frag the Broadband Users.

SO, Any chance of Barrys actually doing everyone a favour
and doing the same.??
No timenudge
Maxpackets 40
server rate 8000

Also,? theres a lot of ISDN users in UK, Cus >
Bt sucks_)

CHEERS ))))

 

[old.Gibzz]

Might help if u said what settings you are using as well btw....you might have something a bit skew.

Personally I wouldn't want those changes implemented.

Do a couple of demos, one on a busy server with the new settings and one with the old, so we can see how you lag out might help

 

[throdgrain]

indeed.i use isdn and play on bw servers every so often,but dont have any problems.

 

[old.D0LLySh33p]

I play with myself and only get lag when someone walks into the room. Does that help?

 

[old.dredded]

Errrrrr ..LOOOL

lol GiBBzz
think u had this out with req>>?? on savage forum..
My conn settings ,,are allready good )) Tks )
i connect to barrys with 50 ping ).

But ,,there is a big difference with setting the server to
the settings i have shown?.
For all isdn users its a god send,also Braodband users are better
with these settings as well..seems when someone uses more packets than u,,hes in a better postion to frag u than u are him.?

Dont know why,,probably requiem knows >? but is there a big difference in playing q3, Users have found ping doesnt go up when u try to frag em? even broadband users ))
U wanna test ??
But thanks anyway ))))))

 

[Chameleon]

JD, I sympathise with ya mate. I got rid of ISDN and replaced it with ADSL, for many reasons, but mostly cos ISDN against a broadbander aint much better than 56k imho. I know the effect you are talking about ..... it used to drive me mad ...... and still does against some CM'ers with settings maxed.
The best defence I have found against the CModem 100 maxpackets brigade is cl_maxpackets 30. It's SO different to their high bandwith setting that you jump about on their screen just as much as they do on yours
I dont think there's a server side config that would be fair to all user types ..... we just have to wait for everyone to get on a level playing field, connection wise.

 

[old.Gibzz]

Ping doesnt go up when u have the bandwidth to support the network traffic thats being thrown at u from the server...it could be that your ISDN is being flooded, thats why I was interested what rate settings etc u were using to get an idea.

Also what ISP u use?

 

[Chameleon]

I tweaked my q3 config over 2 years on isdn, and tbh I don't think there's a thing you can do. It will be marginally better if you use an 0845 dialup which supports software compression, rather than some anytime package, but your never gonna compensate for the cable modemers rate 20000, maxpackets 100.

 

[old.Gibzz]

Well, I don't wanna bring up old discussions, but a good ISP and 64k ISDN will support maxpackets 100 or any figure u choose fine.

Rate is the tricky bit, cos really theres not much u can do about it. The server has to send to 20 snaps a sec which varies in size depending on the spam in your view (unless u wanted to lower snaps). Even if the server is capped at 8000 rate and it needs to send more than that for your updates it will still discard stuff. I guess I was a bit confused as to how sv_maxrate 8000 will help yourself, as you should be capped yourself with rate way under that really. Maybe if the server is tight on bandwidth those settings will help a lot tho.

Personally I always used to find the ISP was the key to getting the best out of ISDN, but same goes with that, the best isn't the cheapest unfortunately :/

Btw I also think the latest OSP has some network "improvements", I was just wondering if they were both the same version u were playng on.

 

[old.dredded]

Sorry GiBBzzz buddy )) i know u mean well,
I been playing q3 a long time now, if anything changes to the feel of the game ,i can feel it
ever since 127 update and every update after came out ,something changed on q3, I could never find out what the hell was wrong.

Ive tried every tweek in the book and some others..LOL..
My conn settings i think are very good.
My comps very fast ,,AMD 1466 and geforce2.

When 127 came out,,barrys went with the upgrade and i tried real hard to play on it. JEEZ what a load or crap that update was!.

I couldnt frag on it,my cfg i'd been using and updating constantly
still didnt help on 127 ,so i played 117 only at xs4all.
So i waited ,,129 much better ,and 130 ,and 131 better still.
I got conn scripts u guys wouldnt believe.lol
My cfg is real good, even cought Blokey trying to steal it off my comp..)) hehe(joking), But its better than his.)

Then i joined an new clan,Uiq,we have our own server,Bandwidth is impressive on it )) we run 18 players on it 25000 rate max packets ,it was fine ).
But i know i can frag just about most the players that i play against(normally), except i cant ??? why???

So we changed the server as a test,changed the max rate to 8000
changed Maxpackets to 40
and removed timenudge..
JEEEEEZ what a diffference it makes.
I know u think im talking bull????,, but im not.
There is an amazing difference.
Its not fiction,,its fact!!!!
So whats changed ???
only the server settings.
So what would u conclude with that info?? same as me maybe ??
OR do u think im talking bull,?

Maybe u guys or to run a test just one night huh..get 6 broadband players and 6 isdn ..
change settings the ones that req suggested.
And isdn will do well against em.))
then put your settings back, ask em to play again and then look at kills and stuff after ??
Even i wouldnt have believed it.
So come on u isdn players,, get in here and help out ))

But u wont change nothing cus someone told u so ?.
Sorry GiBBzz ,,wont take up any more of your time,,
But i tell u something for nothing ,, Im right!!!

Hi Cham Buddy ))))
Tks M8 ) all the best )))))


TKs GiBBzz ))

 

[old.Gibzz]

hehe

I never said u were talking bull, thats why I was asking for your network settings, which u still havent said! I just wanted to try and figure out what could be mebbe going on.

"we run 18 players on it 25000" this could be a key to it, I'm not sure, most pubby servers have maxrate at 8000 or 10000, or could just be the combination of settings are too much for the server or summat :/

gl in your quest

 

[old.dredded]

My settings ISDN ))

Hi GiBBzz ))

errrr i use these scripts i made for all my conn settings,
maybe its all crap i dunno)) hehe

but maybe some of its ok ,,and it might help others))
but im open for improvments GiBBzz Buddy_)_)

//Copyright **JUDGE*DREDD** (@) 2002
//Quake 3 Arena CTF

//Connection Rate Script For ISDN
set con_0 "echo ^2CoNNectioN Menu;set netrate vstr con_1
set con_1 "rate 7800;cl_maxpackets 38;snaps 30;com_maxfps 76;echo ^2Normal ]> P=38 /S=30 /FPS=76;set netrate vstr con_2"
set con_2 "rate 7800;cl_maxpackets 40;snaps 30;com_maxfps 80;echo + ]>> P=40 / S=30 /FPS=80;set netrate vstr con_3"
set con_3 "rate 7800;cl_maxpackets 43;snaps 30;com_maxfps 86;echo + ]>>> P=43 / S=30 /FPS=86;set netrate vstr con_4"
set con_4 "rate 7800;cl_maxpackets 46;snaps 30;com_maxfps 92;echo + ]>>>> P=46 / S=30 /FPS=92;set netrate vstr con_5"
set con_5 "rate 8000;cl_maxpackets 50;snaps 30;com_maxfps 100;echo + ]>>>>> P=50 / S=30 /FPS=100;set netrate vstr con_0"
set con_5 "rate 8000;cl_maxpackets 60;snaps 35;com_maxfps 120;echo + ]>>>>>> P=60 / S=30 /FPS=120;set netrate vstr con_0"
set netrate vstr con_0
bind 6 "vstr netrate"
//
//PACKET update on / off
bind 9 "vstr Packet_Update"
set dup "echo ^2Packets-UpDate Menu ; set Packet_Update vstr dupon1"
set dupon1 "cl_packetdup 1 ;rate 7000;echo ^4DuPlicate PacketUpdate ^2ON (1);set Packet_Update vstr dupon2"
set dupon2 "cl_packetdup 2 ;rate 6000;echo ^4DuPlicate PacketUpdate ^2ON (2);set Packet_Update vstr dupon3"
set dupon3 "cl_packetdup 3 ;rate 5000;echo ^4DuPlicate PacketUpdate ^2ON (3);set Packet_Update vstr dupoff "
set dupoff "cl_packetdup 0 ;rate 8000;echo ^4DuPlicate PacketUpdate ^1OFF ^1(0);set Packet_Update vstr dup "
set Packet_Update "vstr dup"
//
//Client/PMOVE Toggle On/Off
bind kp_pgup "vstr p_move"
set p_movemenu "echo ^2PMOVE ^2--> /^2ON/^1OFF;set p_move vstr pmove_0"
set pmove_0 "pmove_fixed 1;echo ^2Pmove ^2ON;set p_move vstr pmove_1"
set pmove_1 "pmove_fixed 0;echo ^2Pmove ^1OFF;set p_move vstr p_movemenu"
set p_move "vstr p_movemenu"
//
//Client /Smoothclients Toggle On/Off
bind kp_pgdn "vstr s_smooth"
set smooth_menu "echo ^2SmooTH-Clients ^2--> /^2ON/^1OFF;set s_smooth vstr smooth_0"
set smooth_0 "cg_smoothClients 1;echo ^2SmoothClients ^2ON;set s_smooth vstr smooth_1"
set smooth_1 "cg_smoothClients 0;echo ^2SmoothClients ^1OFF;set s_smooth vstr smooth_menu"
set s_smooth "vstr smooth_menu"
//
Maybe u might change the settings for broadband GiBBzzz
and use them as well Huh ..LOOooOOL..
,,_) hehe

 

[old.Gibzz]

Hiya again, looks like a pretty good config

Main thing I was thinking along the lines of was the rate factor and the changes in 1.27 and 1.29 onwards....cos the rate 7800 and rate 8000 in the config, I'm wondering may be too high...from the upsetchaps page...

Note that with 1.27 or above and a Stac/Microsoft compressed connection you can no longer use higher rates than normal for your connection type.

In 1.29 and above data packets are compressed server side before being transmitted to the client. Even though rate cap limits will be unchanged the actual amount of data sent in packets for a given rate limit will be greater as upto 5:1 compression is possible. In essence a 8000 rate cap limit could mean that after decompression on the Quake3 client you are actually receiving 12000+ bytes for a rate cap of 8000. Connection tweak tables have been adjusted to reflect changes in 1.27 and 1.29.

All I've really been wondering with some people is whether in previous versions all has been running fine, then Id come along and slap in some network compression.....chances are your own ISDN compression is less effective..if this makes sense, which may mean a setting say over 6500 might flood yourself. I.e I'm wondering if you can still receive the same amount of data, but to cope with the change in networking you actually need to lower your rate to bang on the ISDN line.

Dunno if any of that makes sense hehe . I'm just thinking this may help explain why some people have been getting more lag with 1.27/1.29+

 

[old.Requ!em]

dredded wrote: think u had this out with req>>?? on savage forum..

'Had it out' implies an argument, quite the opposite, we agreed on settings and it was certainly an interesting thread =)

Just to add to the post already made by Gibz.

The information that follows is based on empirical testing, monitoring Quake3 network activity from versions 1.1x to 1.3x.

Quake3 prior to 1.27 never reached the rate cap. Assume the last snaps packet the Quake3 server wanted to send was 250 bytes in size and the client had a rate cap of 8000. If the amount of data sent per second reached 7752 then the Quake3 server would never send the last snaps packet. Why? the client would reach their rate cap (7752 + 250 = 8002). If the last snaps packet the Quake3 server wanted to send was 400 bytes in size then 8000-400 = 7600 maximum sent to client.

ISDN when using a good ISP can sustain ~7500 bytes a second when gaming, it can however recover quickly from very short bursts of bandwidth saturation. Taking into account the 1.1x client rate cap calculation and you'll see why most Quake3 players used 8000 prior to 1.27.

In 1.29+ id compress Quake3 network data before it's forwarded to the OS TCP/IP stack. Assuming the alleged average 40% compression a client rate cap of 8000 actually means the server can now 'fit' ~13256 bytes, not 8000.

Q3 Server -> 13256 compress 40% -> ~8000 -> OS Stack -> Q3 Client -> 8000 Decompress -> 13256

Changes to the network code mean that you're more likely to hit the rate cap limit in Quake3 1.3x. Rate cap on ISDN using Quake3 version 1.3x and above should be ~7500 maximum, there's simply no need to 'push' ISDN anymore.

Since Quake3 1.3x/1.2x point releases, and taking into account the increase in usage of 24/7 flatrate ISPs, the UpsetChaps Quake3 Guide suggests a rate cap of ~7000 for ISDN (7500 maximum when using a very good gaming ISP).

 

[old.Gibzz]

Ta for the info Req as usual....

Me and req don't normally argue, (me and Mantis always argue tho!). We are generally heading in the right direction of discussing all the stuff and trying to come out with whats best for the gamers, we aren't generally opposing. Really its trying to understand it all, this post here is a prime example of that, someone has a problem, people try to understand whats actually happening, Req pops his head in and comes up with the facts no one has known about (prob not even Id hehe) and adds a bit of clarity to the myth of Q3 tweaking and wtf is going on . What I've always been opposed to is what I call "blind" settings, without understanding whats happening its hard to support them.

The odd thing I find is theoretically the extra compression should help most people with lag, seem to get mixed views on that one.

 

[Chameleon]

Req and the ucguides are great stuff and required reading for all imho. However, having used ISDN for 2 years in q3, read all the technical info and tried every setting possible ...... there is nothing you can do against the Cable modemers, even on adsl. You can get the best from your connection, thanks to the guide and other sources, but until you get a CM yourself, expect to get the 'flooding effect' and the pauses in fights with CM'ers which you can do nothing about ..... except die and wait for your connection to settle again ....... as you lie dead on the floor. It's unfortunate, but unavoidable. I can tracert to bw ips, get there in 5 or so hops, with response times of 15ms or so, no packet loss, a connection that feels great in q3, with a flat netgraph in all respects ........ but get within a few yards of a 'maxed out' cable modemer and your'll invariably die while your screen goes bonkers, before you even get enough clarity to fire a shot off.

 

[old.dredded]

WooW this is getting GooD

Hi Req.._))
Sorry ,didnt mean to say u and gibbs had a fight,, >
Wrong choice of words i think>)

But i read all the story on savage, more than once i might add.
Complicated subject for some i think, except req..


Errrrr..i know u know your stuff Req.) and i am very sure u and Gibz know far more than i do, ,,hehe.
But through all your explanations and knowlege u talk about this and that as if u know whats happening, But u cant fix the problem i have or offer any solutions other than the ones i have allready chosen.
Which dont help me at all..lol except maybe goto Cable or Adsl to fix the problem,, And i would love to join the Broadband guys except Bt or NTL dont wanna help me with that problem.
This info i allready got from the Savage forum, but unlike all those that couldnt offer a solution, i tried to find one, PS.I dont give up easy:_).
I had an chance try it out on a server, settings of my choice
i chose some of the advice that req suggested and tried them out.

Req ,i believe suggested that server rates were lowered to 8000 cus of the new 5 to 1 compression, and removed timenudge and lower sv_MaxPackets "40"
It made a difference, it wasnt perfect but it sure was a big change.I didnt have any dial or programs to measure the changes, But i use what i have allways done, i can feel it, i know the change ,it was instant.

But ok ,i allways thought that with the new compression in q3 that if i set my rate to 7500 or 8000 i would in actual fact recieve a much higher connection (your words req, Q3 Client -> 8000 Decompress -> 13256 ) ,so in actual fact i am recieving and getting a lot more data than i had recieved before in previous Non-compression q3 updates. So ?? why am i lagging like crazy,
i should be getting a much higher rate than my quake had before.

What u and Id are saying i thought with the new server side compression is that, isdn and any 56k modem players are now able to play q3 far better than before, so why do i know lag in a close firefight when in q3 117 it was perfect, and the only advantage that a guy with broadband had was a lower ping.
Errrr,,PS ,,lower ping wasnt enough..lol)

Maybe id should think about a command in the cfg to turn it on and off maybe, Maybe we are flooding, dunno, ill try lower rates
lower,but if i find an answer i let u know, but its not my end i know it.
My cfg is fine,really it is ,my q3 could be better..lol
but i cant do a thing about the lag or slowdown when i go into a firefight??
And i dont think u guys can help i guess,but the server with lowered settings were much much better to play against broadband players.

TKS..Guys )))))))

ill try some other things ideas ))

Tks Chamm))))))