Is this taking your religion too far?

[Thadius]

BBC NEWS | England | Shropshire | Mother dies after refusing blood

Quite a sad story, a young woman, only 22, gave birth to twins and then died due to refusing a blood transfusion on the grounds of her religion.

I dont know wether to be angry or sad, angry at the whole ridiculousness of the story or sad at the fact the twins will grow up without a mother, with only photographs and such to remember he by.

Religion, its a funny old game

 

[Solo]

Shes a complete fuckwit.

Is it illegal to refuse medical treatment- I don't think so. But what about if your pregnant and its not just your own decision. Can see some ties with the whole abortion debate with some hints of 'suicide'? If the law has been broken then religion goes out the window.

Since when does the bible talk about blood transfusions or is it just an interpretation.

 

[Thadius]

Shes a complete fuckwit.

Is it illegal to refuse medical treatment- I don't think so. But what about if your pregnant and its not just your own decision. Can see some ties with the whole abortion debate.

Since when does the bible talk about blood transfusions or is it just an interpretation.

Like all religion, its how you interpret the texts.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well, it was her choice and ""The family have told me that a blood transfusion wouldn't have saved Emma." kinda, well, while not making it "completely right" in some peoples eyes, does offer those people some "comfort".

My view, it's their choice.

 

[Thadius]

Well, it was her choice and ""The family have told me that a blood transfusion wouldn't have saved Emma." kinda, well, while not making it "completely right" in some peoples eyes, does offer those people some "comfort".

My view, it's their choice.

But those children are now left without thier mother.

Isnt that neglect though?

And just because one side sees it as "normal", doesnt make it right

 

[Dukat]

Since when does the bible talk about blood transfusions or is it just an interpretation.

Its quite a well known fact that jehovah's witnesses do not allow blood transfusions, not sure exactly where it came from but I've seen countless debates about it.

Its either a very thoughtless act, or its an act that displays a great amount of faith, or maybe both?

She should really be thinking about the children's lives, rather than her own "salvation" or whatever, but then again, does anyone have the right to judge her? its her life and her beliefs, agreed its pretty awful for the children, but should she be forced to live with self perceived damnation ?

I mean she'd hardly be fit to bring up her own children if she believed them to be the cause of her own 'disgrace' or whatever it is she thinks will happen.

Its very sad, and it also makes me angry to hear about it, i personally believe she is selfish, but that doesnt change the fact that she believed differently and was willing to die for her beliefs. I think I respect that to a certain extent.

 

[Solo]

But those children are now left without thier mother.

Isnt that neglect though?

And just because one side sees it as "normal", doesnt make it right

You know they will be brought up and brainwashed that it was the right decision and the only choice.

'Mummy died for you becaused she loved god'

But hey, quiche munchers.

 

[Basic_X]

I wounder what would happen if one of those people got shot, and due to heavy blood loss need blood transfer, and then the family refused because its against their belief. (would probably end in the same way as here, but would make allot of fuss in the media)

 

[Thadius]

You know they will be brought up and brainwashed that it was the right decision and the only choice.

'Mummy died for you becaused she loved god'

Exactly, she is going to become a "martyr" to Witness', though to everone else she is just selfish. I know I would risk facing a Gods wrath to make sure my children ahd a father.

Though I suppose I would have a go at God, moaning about how he was a coward for leaving Jesus on Earth to get killed. Twice

 

[Laddey]

I wounder what would happen if one of those people got shot, and due to heavy blood loss need blood transfer, and then the family refused because its against their belief. (would probably end in the same way as here, but would make allot of fuss in the media)

Who asked you?!


And if it was me, my religion would go straight out of the window to save both my kids.

Isn't it human nature to do anything for your newborn? apparently not by the looks of it.

Even an animal knows that, i guess they're not religious or they tend to have blood transfusions!

 

[old.Tohtori]

But those children are now left without thier mother.

Isnt that neglect though?

And just because one side sees it as "normal", doesnt make it right

Nothing about what humans do is right right, it's just what some feel as right and based on a set of rules set by some form or another.

So, everything's really opinionated and rahter moot as true "arguments"

Anyhoo, about them being left without a mother.

There's thousands of kids out there, without a mother, without a father, given away due to financial issues and such, i'm quite sure those kids will be either A: Fine or even B: Better off.

Heck, they might now grow up t hate the jewish way because it killed their mother and as such, some day might save their kids from the same thing.

Time will tell, but i have no doubt, that these kids won't get(in same sense as daddy+mommy kids do) a perfectly "normal" life.

 

[Jeremiah]

Since when does the bible talk about blood transfusions or is it just an interpretation.

Its an interpreatation from the book of Acts. IMO, its a wrong interpretation, but that is just my opinion. The points about her now leaving her children mother-less are very valid, and this case really highlights the seemingly "crazy" lengths humans will go to protect that what they believe in.

I cant really sit and critisise tho. If I had a choice between my life and my faith, I know what I would choose. It obviously becomes harder when you start factoring in other people, but if our minds can be changed due to the "seriousness" of the situation, how can it be called faith at all - its like saying "I believe X, as long as it doesnt cause Y".

 

[Corran]

personally if i was a doctor i would refuse to treat anyone that was a JW.
Reason? Nothing against their religion but I wouldnt want to treat someone with my hands tied, and I wouldnt want their death on my conscience when knew that could have saved them.

Religion in general is a load of shit in my opinion. Always used as an exuse for things and causes more harm then good. Just look at all the war etc caused by religious belief.

Where is the good in dying and leaving a kid without a mother, when a JW comes knocking at the door preaching about god and wanting you to join their religion they seem to forget to tell you that if you do you need to tell doctors to just let you die. What she done was basically suicide in my opinion. Doctors should of just said she suffering post natal depression and done it :touch:

 

[Aile]

As if wasting sundays in na church wasn't enough

 

[Thadius]

Where is the good in dying and leaving a kid without a mother, when a JW comes knocking at the door preaching about god and wanting you to join their religion they seem to forget to tell you that if you do you need to tell doctors to just let you die. What she done was basically suicide in my opinion. Doctors should of just said she suffering post natal depression and done it :touch:

Good idea, going to cut out the page from the paper and show it to any JW that come to the door and see what they say

 

[Vladamir]

Fair play to her really, stuck to her faith when crunch time came.

 

[Jeremiah]

personally if i was a doctor i would refuse to treat anyone that was a JW.
Reason? Nothing against their religion but I wouldnt want to treat someone with my hands tied, and I wouldnt want their death on my conscience when knew that could have saved them.

Thats a good point. I was reading something else involving JW and Chemotherapy (or how ever it is spelled!). When going through treatment, from what I've read, you need to be given transfusions as the treatment damages your own blood cells. If this was given to a JW, and you knew they would refuse transfusions, and such the treatment had a huge chance of killing them, would you want to be the one in charge of the treatment?

 

[noblok]

Since when does the bible talk about blood transfusions or is it just an interpretation.

It may not directly talk about such things, but there is something to be said for it on biblical grounds. If you look at Genesis, you'll notice that the whole "separate and discern" thing is pretty important ("And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.").

In Leviticus, there is a law against eating blood (Lev 7:27 "If anyone eats blood, that person must be cut off from his people"). This is based on the idea that things are separated and must be separated in order to be discernable (before separation there is only darkness). Mixed things are considered unclean (also a corpse, e.g., because it's somewhere between life and death iirc or the sowing of several types of grain together [to show that 'unclean' doesn't have the strong moral connotation we're inclined to give it]).

edit: This is not to say that it is "unchristian" to accept a bloodtransfusion. I'm just explaining the reasoning.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Thats a good point. I was reading something else involving JW and Chemotherapy (or how ever it is spelled!). When going through treatment, from what I've read, you need to be given transfusions as the treatment damages your own blood cells. If this was given to a JW, and you knew they would refuse transfusions, and such the treatment had a huge chance of killing them, would you want to be the one in charge of the treatment?

Well, the old "First, do no harm" rule of doctors would dictate that you should treat people with chemo, even if future needed medicine wouldn't be accepted by the patient.

Any doctor, knows that they are powerless when it comes to religion, any religion, and in front of patients wishes for that matter, so they must do what they can in the given boundaries.

 

[Thadius]

It may not directly talk about such things, but there is something to be said for it on biblical grounds. If you look at Genesis, you'll notice that the whole "separate and discern" thing is pretty important ("And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.").

In Leviticus, there is a law against eating blood (Lev 7:27 "If anyone eats blood, that person must be cut off from his people"). This is based on the idea that things are separated and must be separated in order to be discernable (before separation there is only darkness). Mixed things are considered unclean (also a corpse, e.g., because it's somewhere between life and death iirc or the sowing of several types of grain together [to show that 'unclean' doesn't have the strong moral connotation we're inclined to give it]).

edit: This is not to say that it is "unchristian" to accept a bloodtransfusion. I'm just explaining the reasoning.

Then why do Catholics drink wine? Doesnt it sybolise Jesus blood?

 

[Lethul]

It's just the natural selection kicking in. In 100 years religion will be extinct and we will sit down and laugh at the heathens who believed in god

 

[noblok]

I assume it's an excercise in the tension between "going up in God/Christ" and at the same time respecting the difference. That's also why I said my previous post wasn't to say that it's unchristian to accept a blood transfusion. It's perfectly possible to respect the difference between different persons and still accept someone else's blood. I know far too little about christianity to go into much detail about this though.

 

[Golena]

At the end of the day it's her descision..

If someone came up with a way of doing a brain replacement, and then told me I might die if they didn't get this dead blokes brain and cut mine out and replace it with their brain i'd probably be somewhat sceptical and possibly take the risk of death.
When does it become stupid and when is it more fuzzy. I guess it's a line that moves for everyone. Personally i'm still not 100% convinced that simply coming up with more and more ways of swapping body bits to keep people alive is necessarily a good thing, and not for religious grounds.

The silly bit is the religious thing here, the i'm not doing it because this book says so.. but then we'll just end up back at the old religious debate that's been done to death already.

 

[Solo]

the old religious debate that's been done to death

Quite fitting!

 

[old.Tohtori]

If someone came up with a way of doing a brain replacement, and then told me I might die if they didn't get this dead blokes brain and cut mine out and replace it with their brain i'd probably be somewhat sceptical and possibly take the risk of death.

I'm in the exact opposite direction.

Not because i "want to liiiive!!!", but because i just find things too cool.

If some scientist came tyo me and said; "we're going to replace your eye with a bionic one, so either you'll loose one eye, or you'll gain an implant worthy of cyberpunk'ish proportions! We're aobut, 70% sure it'll work."

I'd jump at it straight up.

 

[Lamp]

If thats your religion, then thats what you believe in
The vast majority of people don't agree, but thats their choice.

Is it any different to someone refusing chaemotherapy / radiotherapy for cancer, knowing that if they don't take the treatment they're going to die.

Personal choice. Might be selfish. Might be against all advice. But your choice. Whatever the reason.

 

[Golena]

If some scientist came tyo me and said; "we're going to replace your eye with a bionic one, so either you'll loose one eye, or you'll gain an implant worthy of cyberpunk'ish proportions! We're aobut, 70% sure it'll work."

I'd jump at it straight up.

I would be like that.... but i'm way too squeamish!

If I had a blood transfusion the thought of someone else's blood running about inside me would probably make me faint, so i'd end up in a permanent coma until I hit myself enough in the face to ensure that I had got it all back out again.

 

[Cromcruaich]

What god would demand that you die, leaving behind 2 children, for the sake of not having a blood transfusion. Maybe its time god came back down and demanded that Collins-Harper or some (holy) ghost writer did a bit of a revision, you know, cleared the whole thing up for us all.

Unfortunately it was a collection of dicks that wrote the bible, and a collection of dicks who then have spent millenia misinterpreting it. And when you get a load of dicks you get a load of wank.

 

[Cromcruaich]

At the end of the day it's her descision..

If someone came up with a way of doing a brain replacement, and then told me I might die if they didn't get this dead blokes brain and cut mine out and replace it with their brain i'd probably be somewhat sceptical and possibly take the risk of death.
When does it become stupid and when is it more fuzzy.

Youve pretty much answered you own question right there.

 

[Nate]

I always thought the Jehovah's religion was one of the worst thought through in the world, never understood why anyone would want to be one if it meant dieing due to living in some medievil mindset for medicine. This religion should be eradicated, it gives people the option to commit suicide practically.

A lot of people get religious when there close to death, but for the opposite reason.