Is there any future in crafting ?

[trigali]

I can only talk about Midgard and I'd be interested to know for the other realms, but here's the situation in Mid-land.


Tailoring There are almost as many tailors as there are players, it seems. As a result nobody's interested in paying any sort of price for 99% quality items and Masterpieces go for little or no margins. I have actually retired from crafting because I was losing too much money. I for one would like to see studded armour made by Tailors instead of Armoucrafters. Not to take any business away from them - well, yes it is - but it seems logical as the main component of a studded suit is leather.

The only professions that seem to make any money are weaponcrafters, and maybe, just maybe armourcrafters. Although I don't know how they can actually charge a margin, due to the prohibitive costs of the materials. I'd like to hear from either profession, hear if they are making money.

Fletchers I don't really know as a rule but the Fletchers I do know are not making any money either and the history of BW posts I've seen seem to show there as well, there is more offer than demand

Spellcrafters One thing I know is that all realms seem to be well short of Spellcrafters. The few who make it to a decent level get drowned so quickly under orders that they quickly lose interest, though, as they basically can't keep on playing. Luckily a few stick it out but not enough of them. Given the price it takes to level up, it's a waste as these guys don't even have the luxury of being able to salvage anything

Alchemists I don't know any. Well, the ones I do know must have me on /ignore because I can't get one to return my calls. To be fair to them, given the cost of levelling an alchemist, I don't understand how they expect to recoup their costs selling DoT procs and others for about 100g a pop. It sounds like a drain of time and money and I fail to see how we could get people to be motivated in the drain of learning Alchemy.

All this to say: is the crafting system in Camelot basically flawed ? Too many tailors, not enough Spellcrafters and Alchemists, with realms that are too rich, yet people who are not incentivised to buy their crafted products at decent, profit making costs.

Who will keep crafting ? Who will stop ? Discuss...

 

[mid_Efour]

Well my opinion no body crafts thinking it will make them wealthy surely. I did it beacuse i wanted 800 metal working then was bored one day so just maxed it out. (fletching that is)

I can handle the current state of affairs with selling stuff but i cannot tolerate people asking to sell me stuff below the cost prices. (stufflike MPs especially)

people telling me they WILL only PAY XXXgold for an item that costs 3x that in materials alone.

stupid system really aswell cos once u buy the item u relaisticaly never will have to replace it unless u play 24/7 365 days a year.

 

[Brunore]

Its the same with AC, for a suit of 99% studdied its 1.6p cost.

I have had people say to me that 1.3p is way too much.

Thats cost without any profit.

The same with chain, and thats worse because it can sometimes take a while to get any leather from a tailor and they usually want a small tip on top of making 10 haubs/helm/blahblah for you, and thats fair enough they have to spend time making it all.

So your loss is usually greater with chain.

I have a MP suddied set in my vault, I'm scared to think how much that would sell for, I might just keep it for when I level Nukin to 50.

The only money I make is from salvage.

 

[Gizmoduck]

Well for a start this is only my oppinion(no spellchecker at work ) on crafting:

1. Crafting dont make you rich, time invested+money= poor crafter.

2. NEVER go below costprice. I'll try to get cost*2.5 on 99% and cost*12.5 on MP. If people dont want to pay this, then they can find another crafter. I sometimes have a "sale" if i have to much in vault(99% from MP orders).

The main reason i started crafting was to keep myself and my toons with desent armor and weapon, and O/C keep the happy guildies with the same.

But yes crafting in DAoC really need to be looked at, to many flaws in it(again due to time and cash invested).

Cheerz
Zea

 

[oldtimer]

>is the crafting system in Camelot basically flawed ?

Not really, the problem are the pricing mentality of the grunts that dont craft and the crafters. Like Brunore said, most grunts seems to think 1-2 P are too much for an item, but remember in the pre-spellcrafting day? How usual were the good drops then? It took some effort to collect a good gear then. Just why should the effort be less today for the aspiring grunt? But now the effort should be money farming not camping a drop zone. Considering that you can farm 1P in 4-5 hours in the right places in midgård the current mentality seems to be based on lazyness. And crafters just go along and sell at whatever price the grunt wants to pay (at least down to material cost). That is a horrible situation indeed. Maybe we are being hurt by the lack of control of DF since it was introduced (the magnificent gold mine only albs seems to undertstand the value of).

One way of getting around that situation is to start selling on order with a base price and selling retrys. No preproduction, just the luck of the server.

Another pricing problem is the weird price model spellcrafters and alchemists seems to use today. Up to a few times material costs...? Who came up with that formula? That price does not in any possible way reflect the value of the item after the crafter imbues it. Saying that a Axe +5, Slash resist 7% and some other goodies are worth a mere 100g is plain silly. The user reaps the benefit from those stats in every battle he/she fights for a very long time after the service has been rendered. Shouldnt that be reflected in the price? When you think about it the real value is probably above 1P...The only guys benefiting from the current pricing situation are those that are too lazy to go gold farming and only wants to rvr.

Want to change it? Start talk within the game....that was how guilds got started in the real world once upon a time...and since all effort presently is being made by the crafter, shouldnt they (who have been watching the progress bar from numerous hours) be the ones to decide about this rather than the grunt that just go rvring?

All of these comments only apply for crafting high level items by the way.

 

[old.linnet]

Originally posted by oldtimer
>

One way of getting around that situation is to start selling on order with a base price and selling retrys. No preproduction, just the luck of the server.

Yup, and the thing is, no one is interested in paying more (people often get sticker shock even when you quote them some average prices).

I don't blame anyone for wanting to get the stuff as cheap as possible, or crafters who like crafting and want to help the realm rather than make money. But it does mean that people who want crafted goods are very very dependent on when a crafter is in the mood to do it. If you could make more of a viable profit from crafting, crafters would tend to craft instead of drop hunt, and thus more crafters would be available more regularly.

You win some, you lose some.

(my fave price model, which no one would be willing to pay, is cost of materials + cost of labour. ie. add a per hourly fee to the price of any given consignment.)

Note: while high level overcharges on spellcrafting might be worth a huge amount to the user, just imagine if normal crafters got a profit of 1 plat on the item as well. (I still like the idea of a cost per hour for SC too)

 

[oldtimer]

I think there is a distinction between the regular crafting disciplines and the advanced ones, ie spellcrafting and alchemy. The advanced disciplines are more like providing a service, the old ones deliver a product. A crafted armour piece or weapon do increase dramatically in value when a bit of magic has been applied to it, a much higher value than than you get from the base item. Just look at what happens to your base stats and weaponskill if you take them off for a short while... From that perspective I think a profit margin is more suitable. Still wont solve the pricing of 99% and 100% items as they are luck dependent are less likely when you craft an item.

Cost of labour. A bit production focused but a way out of the loser situation the crafter is firmly placed in today. Hm how do you put a value on the hourly fee? Something similar to what you can pull in by farming diamonds in DF during the same period of time? Should there be a difference between an hour mob farming and an hour crafting due to more required training in crafting? The concept dont take the value of the service into consideration though.

 

[Skrad]

Well, I'm a LGM weaponcrafter. I didn't do it to become amazingly rich, I did it for some added variety in the game and also to help other players out by providing a useful service and as a chance to chat to some other people outside my usual circle. One thing I most certainly did NOT become a LGM smith for though, is to lose money when I craft for others.

I work on a fixed price for orders and most people are happy to accept this. Of course, there will always be the few that say "wow, that's expensive!!!" or varieties of the same with varying degrees of rudeness. Yes, it's expensive. Arcanium is expensive. etc etc. At this stage in the discussion, I tell them that that's my price and it's their choice.

After that, there are generally one of three things that happen:

1) Customer decides that yes, materials are expensive and that I've spent a lot of time skilling up and goes ahead with the purchase.

2) Customer decides not to buy from me (not happened too often)

3) Customer says "but I was offered one for like 200g!!!" or "but <random name> got his for 1 platinum!!!" (where 1 plat is way below material cost even for 20 retries) .


In cases 1 and 2, fair enough

in case 3, well.... depending on the tone of their reply, I'll suggest they go to the crafter that offered them that low price or <ahem> somewhere else



People, show your crafters a bit of respect. Is that really too much to ask for all their effort?

 

[maxgirth]

Originally posted by Gizmoduck


But yes crafting in DAoC really need to be looked at, to many flaws in it(again due to time and cash invested).

Cheerz
Zea

I think craftings biggest flaw is the equation of MP`s 2% ratio,
weaponcrafting like other crafts has a vast spectrum, and using this system as a basis to calculate, may well balance the books, but at the end of the day, a truer picture of how these odds are worked out comes to light, when you have spent as many months chained to the forge crafting as I once did making on average 2 Arcanium MP`s per day for god knows how long.

I`ll use Arcanium and round the figures off to try and explain what I mean, a small shield costing 28 gold base materials plus 7 gold per retry, to a polearm costing 260 and 65 a retry, the odds of hitting an MP between these two items differed immensely, I noticed when crafting that the more costly the item, the less chance of getting an MP, I never made a polearm in under 77 retries, whereas I only ever had one shield that took over 100 retries, also, shields being the only MP`s i`ve ever made back to back, on quite a few occasions.

So in the nutshell, a 1000 items are crafted resulting in 20 MP`s I will gaurantee the majority of them are cheap items, to all you crafters out there who have had that nightmare scenario whilst crafting an MP, I bet it wasn`t the cheapest item you can make.

P.S. I came out of retirement the other day to make a guildie a poleaxe I charged him the cost price of 82 retries, when he picked it up, he also needed a small shield 99% qua, on the 7th or 8th try out popped an MP, a very happy Daren with 2 MP`s just within the 2% ratio.

 

[medowind]

I think housing might revitalise crafting a bit, with more vult space for popular items/gems and a merchant + tools in your garden (if you can afford the weekly rent)

 

[krill-nyd]

For weapons at least part of the pricing problem is the pursuit of mps. If someone funds an mp, unless there is a lot of luck then a fair few 99% will result along the way. Selling these means depressing the price compared to a per retry price. For example, 16.5dps 1-h arc weapons in Midgard have come down to around 300-350g in price. For a 1-h spiked hammer that's the equivalent of at cost price of less than 4 retries to get 99% and at a per retry basis adding on 20% to cost its the equivalent of 3 retries. Such fixed prices thus drive drive what is a more reasonable fixed cost but those prices are only possible because a crafter will just happen to have a lot of 99% resulting from 50+ retries on a masterpiece.

The payoff for a crafter with funds can only be in selling masterpieces at high prices, while selling off 99% at fairly low, but it would be easy to go broke pursuing this path. 100 tries at a 1-h spiked hammer costs 4platinum and could result in no masterpiece, even with one masterpice the selling price is likely to be more like 2-3platinum (at most).

The only general solution to such a problem I can think ofis agreed prices . I'd like to charge fixed prices for 99% at something like the equivalent of 10 retries with 10% added on. But that would close to double current prices and so couldn't be done without general crafter agreement. That having been said, I've made some people some cheap and some expensive weapons (mp and 99%) using the retry basis but I would never charge just cost, always add something on so people see more like the real cost. But as Trigali mentions, maybe weapons are an area where money can be mdae.

 

[maxgirth]

No crafting, no game

I cannot speak for the other two realms, but albions crafters appear to be diminishing rapidly, I get so many pm`s as soon as I log max on, pleading with me to make not mp`s but 99%`s as they have been trying for weeks sometimes, to no avail.

As I see it the game we play has very much become, a game based on crafting, yet the rewards from crafting/salvaging are getting weaker every patch (don`t even get me started on the heavy reduction salvage wise, from SI areas last patch), salvaging being the bread and butter to most of we crafters.

So where does this leave us?, most level 50 players have their fac 102 sc`ed armour and matching level 51 weapons, these people may not have noticed the knock on effect that mythics constant nerfing has produced, bearing in mind items degrade a lot faster than they used to, but, when it`s time to replace what they have, using a minstrel for example, look at how many crafters he/she will need:- fletcher, WC`er, AC`er, tailor, alchemist, spellcrafter, thats 6 people needed to keep 1 player playing.

Caer Diogel is basically the crafting capitol of albion, and how busy it used to be not long after SI arrived, filled to the brim with lgm`s of all trades, now it`s nearly empty bar those still crafting and would be lgm`s skilling up, I crafted my alt some new swords,
he`s had them for 4 levels now, and still no proccs on them, i`ve visited diogel many times but no alchemist available to do level 40 proccs.

Crafters keep this game going, period, without them there will be no game, their rewards from all the time/cash spent to get to their status is starting to mean less each patch, it`s not the players who should respect crafters, but the game designers, and if they do not get their acts together and do something to make crafting worthwhile, all I can see is disaster.

 

[Sharma]

With retried for MP items a crafter can make an absolute bomb of cash with it, so sometimes its worth is doing an MP order

 

[maxgirth]

Originally posted by krill-nyd
For weapons at least part of the pricing problem is the pursuit of mps. If someone funds an mp, unless there is a lot of luck then a fair few 99% will result along the way. Selling these means depressing the price compared to a per retry price. For example, 16.5dps 1-h arc weapons in Midgard have come down to around 300-350g in price. For a 1-h spiked hammer that's the equivalent of at cost price of less than 4 retries to get 99% and at a per retry basis adding on 20% to cost its the equivalent of 3 retries. Such fixed prices thus drive drive what is a more reasonable fixed cost but those prices are only possible because a crafter will just happen to have a lot of 99% resulting from 50+ retries on a masterpiece.

The payoff for a crafter with funds can only be in selling masterpieces at high prices, while selling off 99% at fairly low, but it would be easy to go broke pursuing this path. 100 tries at a 1-h spiked hammer costs 4platinum and could result in no masterpiece, even with one masterpice the selling price is likely to be more like 2-3platinum (at most).

The only general solution to such a problem I can think ofis agreed prices . I'd like to charge fixed prices for 99% at something like the equivalent of 10 retries with 10% added on. But that would close to double current prices and so couldn't be done without general crafter agreement. That having been said, I've made some people some cheap and some expensive weapons (mp and 99%) using the retry basis but I would never charge just cost, always add something on so people see more like the real cost. But as Trigali mentions, maybe weapons are an area where money can be mdae.

Quite a few months ago a fixed priced structure was introduced for mp`s, originating from the usa servers I think, of x15 base material cost, this seemed to work quite well until last patch, I made 6 mp`s after this, and would have lost cash on every one of them using this system, a sabre costing 5.75 plat and a reinforced large shield costing just over 1 plat, to name but 2 examples.

 

[krill-nyd]

You're right maxgirth, any fixed price idea would probably have to exclude mps, unless you fixed the price at something like 200 retries, even then a crafter could go broke on it. I was more concerned with the way 99% prices can drop making a per-retry price for 99% unviable. A couple of times I've advised a customer to go to someone who is selling 99% at say 300g, when I know my price will be something like 250g+50g per retry. And the 300g price only comes about if someone is getting 99% as part of going for an mp.

I'm not advocating a fixed price, I just mentioned it seems the one way to put some balance back into crafter's lives.

And yes, if someone pays for the retries and you make them an mp and end up with 5x99% then a crafter can make some good money that way. But it also unbalances things and creates odd expectations from buyers. If I have spiked hammers 99% from going for an mp and sell them at 300g, then I can't do that if someone wants a cleaver and I don't have those in stock. The cleaver has to be done on a retry basis. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

 

[old.linnet]

People rarely are interested in buying 99% cloth or leather (I mean, we don't have the vault space to store large amounts of gear for very long). If I have an order for MP sleeves, for example, I just don't have the vault space to store 5 or 6 99% sleeves, so selling them off quickly at any price that is higher than the merchant would pay is what you just have to do ;/

More vault space/ player owned merchants will help a lot.l (I am alone in thinking that the price of 99% gear will edge up a bit when housing comes in, because the urgent need to make room and get rid of it is less of a deal.)

 

[maxgirth]

Some very good points from both Krill and Linnet, I think the only real way fixed price structures would work, would be to have all the realms crafters sticking to the same price, by way of forming some kind of union, and all adhering to it, at least the customer would know what to expect, my suggestion for this would be x3 base material cost for 99% quality, which is no more than a days farming in DF.

 

[bulge]

You got two hopes of a union ever being formed matey, Bob Hope and no hope

There will always be someone who won't want to play ball.....

It doesn't help that the basic fundementals of crafting seem seriously flawed. When you gotta make 40 pairs of grey con leggings to get one 99% set, theres something wrong.

As for MP's, well , I decided early on not to go there and I'm very glad I did.

I only ever do orders on a retry basis nowadays. Even 99% orders are starting to make my teeth itch. After spending 90 minutes and lots of cash making 5 pieces of 99% Af102 leather for a customer I was just glad he had a legendary crafter on another realm so he understood the odds.........

I still found it hugely embarassing at 1144 skill though

I only started tailoring to make inserts for an AC'er bud of mine, to make my own leather armour and stuff for my guildies and mates, I guess I'm gonna end up doing just that.

 

[maxgirth]

I have no intention of forming a union Bulge, I was only stating it would be pointless really having a fixed price structure, as it would be undercut by other crafters.

I agree wholeheartedly about the flaws though m8ty, why should the economy be making more profit than the crafters at a whopping great 25%?.

Also to all the peeps who keep moaning at me regarding the lack of weaponcrafters, express your views here, you`ve heard why I retired.

 

[bulge]

Aye, was agreeing with you m8y about the union (wrapped up in a joke that didnt quite work though lol)

Whilst the percentages are so out of wack, doing fixed price stuff is just not viable.

So if any customers are reading this, remember, it cost us lots of cash and lots of time to even be able to make something for you....

C'mon you customers, be nice to your crafters.......

 

[Gizmoduck]

Well i just hope that the crafters of ASlbion(other 2 realms as well) would stand by thier prices(mine beein 2.5 x cost on 99% and alchemy) and not sell stuff just becourse people that others are selling at lower prices.

If ALL(almost all) would just stand by this, then we could actually make a little profit of the time and cash we invested in our craft.

I know that i wont sell stuff that im loosing money on, if people wont pay my prices, then they can find someone else(GL finding a 1000+ alchemist).

Cheers
Zea

 

[tetzuo]

Originally posted by old.linnet
People rarely are interested in buying 99% cloth or leather (I mean, we don't have the vault space to store large amounts of gear for very long). If I have an order for MP sleeves, for example, I just don't have the vault space to store 5 or 6 99% sleeves, so selling them off quickly at any price that is higher than the merchant would pay is what you just have to do ;/

More vault space/ player owned merchants will help a lot.l (I am alone in thinking that the price of 99% gear will edge up a bit when housing comes in, because the urgent need to make room and get rid of it is less of a deal.)

Thats the main problem: when you have an MP order and sell the 99% items too cheap, then all player think thats the normal prize for 99% items and the market for 99% will break down, soon.

I ask in my guild if anyone needs a cheap 99% item and if not, I sell them to a merchant. This is much better to offer them too cheap.

And the loss if of course calculated in the MP´s prize.