Interesting Weaponskill Table information

[Shike]

Originally posted by froler-mid
yea, why should thanes have ANYTHING good?!?!?!

Ehum, ask Mythic that question instead and try to get an answer, doubt you will get one though. However, Thanes could use some love, but on the other hand, so could many other classes tbh.

 

[Shike]

On a more serious note, an interesting thing to add would be to measure damagecaps.

lvl30 or 20 and a 85% wep from a merchant, same str and if possible, same delay, same bonus, and enough to cap DPS. I dont know if its possible to find weps with same delay tough. Then go hit 20 lvl1 mobs to ensure the max damage.

 

[SilverHood]

Originally posted by Shike
On a more serious note, an interesting thing to add would be to measure damagecaps.

don't think thanes have dmg caps... dont hit that hard

 

[Flimgoblin]

hrm sounds like that's why thanes grumble they should be on the same WS growth as paladins imho.

Valewalkers would be fotm if they had determination

They don't so they're underplayed.

 

[old.Dorac]

Spooky, I just did this test the other day.

Class           Weaponskill              Hitpoints
-----------------------------------------------------
Warrior         258 (85 Str, 20 Axe)     424 (80 con)
Savage          246 (85 Str, 20 Axe)     424 (80 con)
Berserker       246 (85 Str, 20 Axe)     424 (80 con)
Skald           212 (85 Str, 20 Axe)     351 (80 con)
Thane           201 (85 Str, 20 Axe)     351 (80 con)

Hero            246 (85 Str, 20 Blades)  424 (80 con)
Blademaster     246 (85 Str, 20 Blades)  424 (80 con)
Valewalker      237 (85 Str, 20 Scythe)  351 (80 con)
Champion        212 (85 Str, 20 Blades)  360 (75 Con)
Warden          201 (85 Str, 20 Blunt)   351 (80 con)

Armsman         246 (85 Str, 20 Slash)   424 (80 con)
Mercenary       246 (85 Str, 20 Slash)   424 (80 con)
Paladin         212 (85 Str, 20 Slash)   366 (80 con)
Reaver          212 (85 Str, 20 Slash)   360 (75 Con)	
Friar           212 (85 Dex, 20 Staff)   351 (80 con)
Minstrel        201 (85 Str, 20 Slash)   351 (80 con)



Test made with lvl 20 chars using their training
weapon given at start. To get 85 Dex on a Friar
I used 60 base Dex and their first self buff which
added 25 Dex.

(* Exceptions are Valewalker, Friar and Minstrel
   who used the free lvl 20 weapon *)

 

[old.yaruar]

Originally posted by Litmus
hmm thane on the rouge ws table, makes alot of sence for a tank to be on assassin ws table imo

Well we have the hp's of a rogue too (some might say even less... at lvl 48 I can get to 1600 fully buffed as a dwarf *sigh*)

Ahh the joys of gimphood.....

 

[old.Emma]

Originally posted by old.yaruar
Well we have the hp's of a rogue too (some might say even less... at lvl 48 I can get to 1600 fully buffed as a dwarf *sigh*)

Ahh the joys of gimphood.....

mmm my SB has

1455 unbuffed (hits not capped)

2067 buffed (hits not capped, purp str/con buff, yellow con buff, MotA 3)

 

[Tasans]

My thane has 1439 unbuffed, 1640 something selfbuffed, 1960 something with purple spec and base buffs.

Thats with capped con/hits aug con 2 and tough 1.

 

[Hatjitjai]

funny thing is that a briton paladin wont have 85 str at lvl 35(if +10str added at start up)

 

[Shike]

Originally posted by Hatjitjai
funny thing is that a briton paladin wont have 85 str at lvl 35(if +10str added at start up)

buff mebbe? Stats on some cheapo item? Or something

 

[Hatjitjai]

Originally posted by Shike
buff mebbe? Stats on some cheapo item? Or something

nah he said unbuffed ;p

 

[Shike]

Originally posted by Hatjitjai
nah he said unbuffed ;p

hmm are you referring to Dorac's post? If so, I cant see him mention it there

 

[old.Dorac]

I guess the bloke who did the test Solid posted worked in the same way I did, and made sure the char had 85 str at that specific level.

E.g.:
* Highlander Paladin
* 70+10 at creation
* +5 from levels 5 - 20

 

[Shike]

Originally posted by Flimgoblin
hrm sounds like that's why thanes grumble they should be on the same WS growth as paladins imho.

Valewalkers would be fotm if they had determination

They don't so they're underplayed.

hmm, I do not agree really, If Valewalkers had Determination, they would still not be Fotm, reason is simply this:

Spearo with slam has quite a chunk more HP thanks to pure tankHPtable they are on.

Spearo can slam people and then do good damaging positionals instead of relying on positionals for a stun (way easier to take off that tank from your friendly caster/healer with slam), LWhero has access to LW with annihilaition aswell.

Valewalkers miss a shitload due to buggy coding when it comes to the mechanics around their 2h weapon Scythe.

Valewalkers wear cloth, Hero wear scale, enough said (the 33% absbuff do not make up for the loss in AF)

Hero's do more consistent damage overall and dont suffer from issues such as having a procc added as an effect to the sidechain that is resisted nearly 75% due to being based on the styles lvl when it comes to calculate resists.

Hero's have access to cheap IP, cheap Purge, cheap determination.

Hero's can guard, protect, intercept groupmembers, VW's has neither of these tools

Valewalkers lifetap dont do that much damage when he faces a group with SCd gear and resistbuffs.

Valewalkers break mez and roots sometimes since some added effects are AoE and it cant be turned off. The 3rd style in the sidechain is AoE and just that chain happen to be the best (imo) they got since it has a stun added to the 1st style.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have probably forgotten some stuff to add, but overall, give me one solid good reason to choose VW over a Hero with either LW or Spear with shield 42 ontop of that please. Only thing would be the funfactor, I have played this class a bit and its a fun class in PVE at least I think with a lot of nice features, but they just dont have what it takes for a gankgroup sadly, add to that that the 2 pure tanks outshine them in almost all areas.

edit: A firb in a pink dress with a blue hooded cloak with a giant scythe would be a deadly weapon though, the enemies would be stunned for 20s laughing their ass off.

 

[Flimgoblin]

I guess they'd need to fix resistances too for VW to be fotm no point having a lifetap almost on par with a cloth caster if the cloth caster's nukes are pretty cack in the first place

 

[Shike]

Originally posted by Flimgoblin
I guess they'd need to fix resistances too for VW to be fotm no point having a lifetap almost on par with a cloth caster if the cloth caster's nukes are pretty cack in the first place

The idea and concept behind the VW aint so bad, and maybe they work in Mythics little lala-land... where thanes work as intended ^^

 

[Solid]

Just did the Friar test for DEX and staff.

Staff Weaponskill is on the same table as Paladin/Reaver Weaponskill:

Paladin (Briton): 78 STR, 336 Weaponskill
Friar (Briton): 78 DEX, 336 Weaponskill

Which puts them in group 4.

Toasty did a test with a friar speccing staff a couple opf days ago and found out a friar is on the same weaponskil table as Paladins when speccing Staff.

 

[eynar]

Dunno, but wouldn't it make more sense to let those classes with self-buffs buff themselves before calculating their weaponskill? So thanes & champs for example would be:
85 str + x from self-buff= x weaponskill

After all, those buffs are a part of the class, and therefor Mythic probably took that in mind upon defining weapon spec tables...

 

[Solid]

Eynar end of the day a Self Buff is a fundamentally broken concept unless it cannot be replicated by another class as a realm castable spell.

Both Champs and Thanes can get a better Druid/Shaman buff from their friendly neighborhood Bot at the PK, so really its all redundant.

Ask yourself how often as a Skald in RvR you dont go out with buffbot buffs and then you will see why replicatable self buffs on lower delves is a flawed concept.

 

[Shike]

Originally posted by Solid
Eynar end of the day a Self Buff is a fundamentally broken concept unless it cannot be replicated by another class as a realm castable spell.

Both Champs and Thanes can get a better Druid/Shaman buff from their friendly neighborhood Bot at the PK, so really its all redundant.

Ask yourself how often as a Skald in RvR you dont go out with buffbot buffs and then you will see why replicatable self buffs on lower delves is a flawed concept.

Yes, this is 100% true, I'd rather see that they add something useful to classes with selfbuffs that actually add something that a bot cant replace so easy.

edit: what Eynar said is probably correct, I believe thats how Mythic is reasoning since if you look back a bit, they have added selfbuffs as a classbalancing tool.

 

[eynar]

Originally posted by Solid
Eynar end of the day a Self Buff is a fundamentally broken concept unless it cannot be replicated by another class as a realm castable spell.

Both Champs and Thanes can get a better Druid/Shaman buff from their friendly neighborhood Bot at the PK, so really its all redundant.

Ask yourself how often as a Skald in RvR you dont go out with buffbot buffs and then you will see why replicatable self buffs on lower delves is a flawed concept.

I agree with most of this, although imo you can't make the assumption that everyone is always buffed with the best available buffs to that realm, cuz that simply isn't the case. Or they should implement a new NPC next to gatekeepers, called buffmasters, where you can buy a full set of buffs. (got this from some post on the vnboards)

 

[eynar]

On a sidenote, I never really understood the concept of self-buffs...why not simply alter the class' inherent stat instead of adding another button to push every 15 minutes?

 

[Shike]

Originally posted by eynar
On a sidenote, I never really understood the concept of self-buffs...why not simply alter the class' inherent stat instead of adding another button to push every 15 minutes?

exactly

 

[Solid]

See thats why its a flawed concept, I am positive most Thanes/Champs/Hunters/Rangers would be happy to lsoe their self buffs in exchange for something UNIQUE that cannot be replicated.

Self buffs were a very cheap ineffective attempt at balancing Hybrids/Rogues.

Selfbuffs are ONLY effective at balancing a class versus its counter[arts when its counter[arts are unbuffed.

As soon as say a Warrior recieves a Str/Con buff froma Shaman, the balancing job of the Thanes self buff is made redundant.

If self buffs stacked with regular buffs then that would be a working solution. I wouldnt have a problem with a much lower delve on the self buffs if they actually stacked with shaman buffs, considering they are an inherant ability the Thane has that was recieved in part for losing the Pure melee weaponskill/hp/defence/RA's that warriors have, it makes sense that the buff should never be in a position to be made redundant.

This applies to ALL self buffing classes with 'classic' buffs, eg I dont see why Skald/Paladin DA should not fully stack with castable DA's, I dont see why Hunter/Ranger AF buffs do not go over basic armour AF caps, I dont see why Thanes and Skalds dont get self buffs that are ALWAYS useful.

Sadly as aforementioned, its something Mythic will just never fix cos they are plain too lazy.

One of the major contributing factors is that the majority of players of this game WILL choose to play the more complete, even overpowered classes in effect making the importance of fixing broken/uncompetitive classes an after thought.

 

[-fwapp-]

Originally posted by Solid
Only included figures for class/race combos with 85 Str unbuffed at level 30 and 30 natural weaponspec. Makes for interesting reading imo.

finally, paladins in my /gu have been saying their WS is lower than scouts/reavers etc due to the class itself and not their gimpyness but now thats proof theyre wrong

 

[Solid]

Reason Paladins weaponskill ends up equal or below that of a Champion/Thane/Skald is because they only train Str as a tertiary stat, ie they receive 30 less Strength from levels compared to a Thane or Champion.

The other reason is that many Paladins only spec to 39 weapon, further lowering their POTENTIAL weaponskill.

If they fixed the stupid double speccing requirement for Albion 2H and actually made it to be like Hibernian Large Weaponary instead, you would see Paladins with superb weaponskill and damage output.

It would open up potential specs of:

44 2H
46 Chants
42 Shield
4-11 Parry (depending on autotrain)

or perhaps

50 2H
48 Chants
23 Shield
22 Parry

 

[Damon_D]

And we dont want that..do we solid .. Paladins are a pain in the ass to kill as it is..if they hit like armsmen on top of that .. well auch..

 

[smincy]

Originally posted by Damon Doombring
And we dont want that..do we solid .. Paladins are a pain in the ass to kill as it is..if they hit like armsmen on top of that .. well auch..

but wouldnt we be alot easier to kill if we were running around the place with our 2h weapons out ? (no shield blocking)