Infil vs SB

[Indrid]

12 Pages of crap later and still there is no hard evidence of 350+(420+) & 160+(192+) dmg per swing.
Just point less arguing, there again, that's what these forums are about I suppose .

http://www.radio6.no/bagr/

i can see some hits there that is actually 480 mainhand and 290 offhand..

that is a total swing on 770! overpowered? nooooooo ofc not...

 

[Ghaladriel]

lolz Forb xD nas nas xD xD

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

errr, try again, there are screenies posted of damage like that.

Wow - so should we use the exception and 1 hit in a hundred to determine the norm?

Look - screenies above had 30% damage explained away without even thinking. They did this in the US after 1.70 and the bottom line was that base damage was comparable once you'd got to comparable specs and kit damage was comparable.

Its just tired old whiny bs. There is no issue.

 

[Vodkafairy]

Wow - so should we use the exception and 1 hit in a hundred to determine the norm?

Look - screenies above had 30% damage explained away without even thinking. They did this in the US after 1.70 and the bottom line was that base damage was comparable once you'd got to comparable specs and kit damage was comparable.

Its just tired old whiny bs. There is no issue.

its not old whiny bs because any decent infiltrator on this server WILL win almost all fights against same rank/equipped nightshade or shadowblade. end of discussion. you started this entire thing by coming up with bullshit because of a recent test

you just dont understand that because you dont have to fight the decent infils, and you arent one of them yourself do you dont know what its like either

 

[mts]

its not old whiny bs because any decent infiltrator on this server WILL win almost all fights against same rank/equipped nightshade or shadowblade. end of discussion.

you just dont understand that because you dont have to fight the decent infils, and you arent one of them yourself do you dont know what its like either

OHHHHHhhhh

BURN

 

[rvn]

its not old whiny bs because any decent infiltrator on this server WILL win almost all fights against same rank/equipped nightshade or shadowblade. end of discussion. you started this entire thing by coming up with bullshit because of a recent test

you just dont understand that because you dont have to fight the decent infils, and you arent one of them yourself do you dont know what its like either

id say a ns with remedy would have a pretty high chance of killing an inf the same rr, or even higher =P

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

its not old whiny bs because any decent infiltrator on this server WILL win almost all fights against same rank/equipped nightshade or shadowblade. end of discussion. you started this entire thing by coming up with bullshit because of a recent test

you just dont understand that because you dont have to fight the decent infils, and you arent one of them yourself do you dont know what its like either

now that sounds like whiny bs

So - 'proof' consists of a few screenies between friends where the damage disparity is so easy to explain my cat could do it.

Tbh i don't really fear SBs - mainly because (probably wrongly) out of past dislike for them I configured my kit and blew around 50p to be able to handle them. I find very few use heat weapons and most have malice/battler or sun weapons (helloooo - cleric energy resist buff! Wakey wakey!) and whilst these can be annoying (damn arrogance - and malice proc firing every other damn round - or it feels that way) the raw damage of heat lws and shade up means i can usually handle them. They usually have purge and tend to sit waiting for a stun to use it (and i don't have a stun style - but they don't know that). Reroll hunters are also fun

Ns are a different kettle of fish. Ran into a few with viper 3 - and that hurts. With remedy neutralizing my ppoisons and 100/tick poison going off thats half my hits gone. And these little feckers (why is it you're all fixated with keens - have you got some king of munchkin fetish) do use leg weapons. And don't talk to me about rangers....

Anyway - waffling - can't remeber what I meant to say...

 

[Vodkafairy]

id say a ns with remedy would have a pretty high chance of killing an inf the same rr, or even higher =P

well not with albs having relics, especially not if the infil purges, but yeah if the relic status was neutral ns have a little edge (very little id say;p)

 

[Jox]

[19:40] <TiwazBot> Name: Asp <UK Mercs> Race: Saracen Class: Infiltrator Level: 50 RP: 286,011 (RR4L3) Last Week: 25,254 Realm: Albion

LOL! as I said... the kid just left the last bg... no wonder he couldnt answer my questions in a propper manner.

Its like discussing submarine-engines with a cat :/

 

[Vodkafairy]

Ns are a different kettle of fish. Ran into a few with viper 3 - and that hurts. With remedy neutralizing my ppoisons and 100/tick poison going off thats half my hits gone. And these little feckers (why is it you're all fixated with keens - have you got some king of munchkin fetish) do use leg weapons. And don't talk to me about rangers....

erm if the ns uses remedy and you can't purge the viper3 dot, you should run the fuck away. snare them with garrote, rest out the damage (spec hp regen, it IS really nice ) and kill when remedy is down

and why the hell would anyone not make a luri ns, should have given us celt option from the start to avoid the shit we have now. elfs don't have any bonuses over luris

also viper 3 is nasty but you have to sacrafice too many points on it, i am trying it atm but i really don't know if its worth the points, need to rvr a bit more with it to make up my mind

and if you fight so many people with legendaries, then get aom3 or EM. simple really, oh wait, you can't afford it .

 

[Khartoum]

What's up with all the surprised faces about 50+xx melee inf's hitting generally harder than 34+xx melee sb's? The relation between base vs spec value and what happens with your dmg when you have a spec value over 50 has already been explained numerous times by Sanya Thomas and blahblah; 50 spec value grants you the ability of reaching your maximum cap dmg, where as a spec over 50 pushes your lower dmg limit upwards towards your cap, slimming your dmg-span thus making your general dmg output higher.

There is no "LA bug syndrome" on the Infil's, Indriid - it's down to our extra specpoints, and mainly the shifting of the str-relics ;(

 

[Cracked]

What's up with all the surprised faces about 50+xx melee inf's hitting generally harder than 34+xx melee sb's? The relation between base vs spec value and what happens with your dmg when you have a spec value over 50 has already been explained numerous times by Sanya Thomas and blahblah; 50 spec value grants you the ability of reaching your maximum cap dmg, where as a spec over 50 pushes your lower dmg limit upwards towards your cap, slimming your dmg-span thus making your general dmg output higher.

There is no "LA bug syndrome" on the Infil's, Indriid - it's down to our extra specpoints, and mainly the shifting of the str-relics ;(

That's not true, i can asure u there are a huge diffrence and it's not because of 4xx extra points. I will make a few test on my own and get back to you on the subject.

 

[Dorin]

so savages with 3 str relics pre 1.65, zerkers pre 1.62 and all hib casters with decent resist pierce + 3 pow relics were balanced just like the infils. uhu right!...
dragonfang nerf didnt help much thanks to mincur m8s ^^ so dont even mention it.

Funny only a few albs admit the fact that infiltrators are over the top and their dmg output with 3 relics is just ridiculous.

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

LOL! as I said... the kid just left the last bg... no wonder he couldnt answer my questions in a propper manner.

Its like discussing submarine-engines with a cat :/

FYI I took a break and came back with TOA - spent time levelling a necro and bot and farming - plus a couple of other lower level chars on here and pryd. Spent 50p on kit, sc'ing etc. Before I left my infil was solo, unbotted and rr4. Why? I'm a casual; player - I play multiple chars and PvE a lot. I don't stand on bridges in trios - I find that very dull. I scout, i explore (sad to admit it but if there was a roleplay server available I'd probably be on that.....) and i like keep sieges (in which an infil tends not to get a lot of rps).

So yeah - I'm not mr ubahzerg to rr10, bridgecamping rp horny zerger. You will find me solo very often - but more often you will find me ungrouped in the middle of a frontier defence force, or shuttling wood to where its needed. The only target I'm interested in hitting atm is rr5 - beyond that the returns are diminishing and I'm not interested in camping docks or bridges for 500k rps - dull dull dull.

And those figs are a couple of days out of date - its not a lot but you can add 50k to those.

And jox - when you pose a proper question without losing your temper and sulking you'll get a proper answer - and if I need expert advice on how to stealthzerg, stealthzerg and then stealthzerg some more i know where to come to. if you think camping docks, bridges and stealthzerging qualifies you to talk mathematics and mechanics then you are sadly mistaken.

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

Funny only a few albs admit the fact that infiltrators are over the top and their dmg output with 3 relics is just ridiculous.

Funny how despite constant whining for 8 (10 patches) no-one has ever been able to prove that - and when challenged tend to go off in a tirade of attacks.

 

[Khartoum]

Again, go beyond 34 base melee and you will see your average dmg striving up up up towards your cap, and not considering the relics or poison, that really is all there is to it. Simple. Then again, you will lose some very important skillpoints... You decide if it's worth it.

 

[Runolas]

What's up with all the surprised faces about 50+xx melee inf's hitting generally harder than 34+xx melee sb's? The relation between base vs spec value and what happens with your dmg when you have a spec value over 50 has already been explained numerous times by Sanya Thomas and blahblah; 50 spec value grants you the ability of reaching your maximum cap dmg, where as a spec over 50 pushes your lower dmg limit upwards towards your cap, slimming your dmg-span thus making your general dmg output higher.

There is no "LA bug syndrome" on the Infil's, Indriid - it's down to our extra specpoints, and mainly the shifting of the str-relics ;(

Thats does not need to be the case when you use CS or LA styles. The dmg is splitt in 2 components - base/styledmg. Wyrds test show that modified weaponspec over 51 does not give you any better basedmg/variance. The styledmg is calculated out of your spec in either CS or LA. Most SB have lowered their weaponspec to get 51 and increased CS/LA and gained a little bit more dmg. As long as SB stay away from Axe/Sword styles they can spec low weapon and gain dmgoutput

If you look at the SS from Indriid vs Forb he is doing allmost x3 the dmg of Indriid. From times I've bumped into Forb he's been hitting me for 350-450 mainhand + offhand. He is probably the hardest hitting INF arround atm. Sanan and some others are also doing beastly dmg, but I've given up figthing these guys. I understand the higher RR SB want to compete though.

 

[Leinal]

My 2 cents:

I wont tell something new but...

All ppl knows that infils deal more dmg overall, u just have to get to vgn stealther forums and read some there & i personally dont care if its cause str/con debuff or cause the 2.5 spec points.

We got "call it" balance, as we had all the str relics pre nf. sb with relics was stronger than infil, now we have the hard times.

I personally like NF, im succesfull on 1 vs 1 figths again, after getting my ass raped more than a few times.

 

[Indrid]

Again, go beyond 34 base melee and you will see your average dmg striving up up up towards your cap, and not considering the relics or poison, that really is all there is to it. Simple. Then again, you will lose some very important skillpoints... You decide if it's worth it.

m8, i have tried many specs.. 50sword, 44cs, 50cs 44sword, i have tried, 44LA, 44sword, i have tried well, cba to tell em all.. but ive tried em! what i found out that did most damage was the one i have now, which is 34+17sword, 34cs(so i can PA and CD, free stun imo, easy on casters and a good start on the battle, even if the PA is only 350) 50+17LA.

but speccing high sword doesnt give me better damage, and even if we had relics i never hit for that damage either..iirc i hit around 230 mainhand and 100offhand on infils before NF. Where they did on me, without str relics up to 250 and 150offhand. Their damage needs a nurf, just like shadowblades got nurfed.. or SBs need aboost, either in damage, spec points, AF, spec in another type of weps, ie crush and those sort of things.. its kind of hard killing somone that hits more damage unstyled than u do styled..


and no, this is not how it should be, even if they have str relics and 10% cause of mid leather.

 

[Khartoum]

Wyrds test show that modified weaponspec over 51 does not give you any better basedmg/variance.

And official statements from the authors of the game say otherwise, but no point debating it really.

If you look at the SS from Indriid vs Forb he is doing allmost x3 the dmg of Indriid.

...but he didn't before we had the relics, even if he was a hard-hitter back then too.


Arguing that Infil's "suffer" from a dmg related bug sounds not likely to me, as I'm certain it would show to a much greater extent than what Indriid propose (like, say, how the LA bug showed
After all, you SBs did hit hard like hell when you had the relics. When you had the relics I recall Heliriah, Daxtaxi, Jox etc. doing styled swings on my Inf for everything from 350-450 (both with and without con-debuff), and that was with all melee/elemental resists capped, MP armor, fully buffed with 7xx AF, at rr5.

 

[Khartoum]

iirc i hit around 230 mainhand and 100offhand on infils before NF. Where they did on me, without str relics up to 250 and 150offhand.

Variations from player to player depending on their modifying stats and choice of weapon I'd say. The dmg you show from Forb today, with relics, reminds alot of the dmg I received from SBs when you had the relics.

 

[-Freezingwiz-]

So u can tell your opponents spec by intuition? Or do u recognize their styles?Or maybe u keep names of every sb thats attacking u and ask them their spec and compare dmg

sorry couldnt resist asking

Btw my 44cs non toa infil has like 200+ more pa cap using a 3.5 thruster than my full toa 44 cs sb using a 4.1 battler but that ofc has nothing to do with LA mechanics compared to DW ones

well relics makes a big diff on the dmg, I don't know the situatuon on prydwen atm tho.

and no doubt infils are harder then SB's.... but every realm have it advantage, hib = casters, Mid = tanks, and Alb = stealthers....

 

[AngelHeal]

Different classes etc, who says infil is same as sb???

and YES it are STR relics. u get 20% less and albs get 20% extra (40% difference) ?

 

[Zeratuhl]

hib = casters, Mid = tanks, and Alb = stealthers....

mids gains sucha bonus from having good tanks in NF

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

Arguing that Infil's "suffer" from a dmg related bug sounds not likely to me, as I'm certain it would show to a much greater extent than what Indriid propose (like, say, how the LA bug showed
After all, you SBs did hit hard like hell when you had the relics. When you had the relics I recall Heliriah, Daxtaxi, Jox etc. doing styled swings on my Inf for everything from 350-450 (both with and without con-debuff), and that was with all melee/elemental resists capped, MP armor, fully buffed with 7xx AF, at rr5.

Thing is wouldn't this bug have manifested itself?

Nothing has changed with infil mechanics since they were given 2.5 spec points.

CS, envenom and stealth are identical lines for SB, NS and infil - if the bug existed in any of these liones it would be apparent for all.

DW is identical in mechanics 9if not styles) for mercs and infils - if the bug was there we'd have 'omfg nerf mercs' threads.

DW/CD use the same mechanics.

Thrust and Slah are common to half the classes in Alb - if the bug was there then it would be apparent.

Yet no-one can id a bug, no-one can prove a disparity but the myth mongers and whiners keep on trotting out the same rubbish for 10 whole patches. Well newsflash - if after 10 patches the game designers are ignoring what you say then you are wrong!

 

[Nalistah]

You are so much Asp (Donttouchpoopy), Smilewhenyousaythat.

Hi

 

[Arus Canus]

Thing is wouldn't this bug have manifested itself?

Nothing has changed with infil mechanics since they were given 2.5 spec points.

CS, envenom and stealth are identical lines for SB, NS and infil - if the bug existed in any of these liones it would be apparent for all.

DW is identical in mechanics 9if not styles) for mercs and infils - if the bug was there we'd have 'omfg nerf mercs' threads.

DW/CD use the same mechanics.

Thrust and Slah are common to half the classes in Alb - if the bug was there then it would be apparent.

Yet no-one can id a bug, no-one can prove a disparity but the myth mongers and whiners keep on trotting out the same rubbish for 10 whole patches. Well newsflash - if after 10 patches the game designers are ignoring what you say then you are wrong!

Naah, just wont admit they made a mistake

 

[Runolas]

And official statements from the authors of the game say otherwise, but no point debating it really.

If you take a closer look at the test done by Wyrd, aka the guy that paid a majour part in getting LA nerfed in the first place, you will find that speccing over 51 mod. Will give you very little back compared to either increase CS or LA. I had 44Axe/39LA in OF and respecced to 35Axe/43LA, my dmg has gone up while at the same time I've gotten the best debuff.

...but he didn't before we had the relics, even if he was a hard-hitter back then too.

I can't recall bumping into Forb in NF with relics, but in OF he hit me for 350-450 mainhand. This is ofc with some crit. I'm not surprised if he has MoP5 though.

Arguing that Infil's "suffer" from a dmg related bug sounds not likely to me, as I'm certain it would show to a much greater extent than what Indriid propose (like, say, how the LA bug showed
After all, you SBs did hit hard like hell when you had the relics. When you had the relics I recall Heliriah, Daxtaxi, Jox etc. doing styled swings on my Inf for everything from 350-450 (both with and without con-debuff), and that was with all melee/elemental resists capped, MP armor, fully buffed with 7xx AF, at rr5.

If you look at the SS from Forb vs Ingriid I think you can sum the difference up into higher AF, Slash vs Mid leathers and Relics (I would guess Forb has higher MoP though). Then we can talk about frontload etc, but those things can go both ways. There are ofc other factors as well like SoM proc etc. I use Traitor's Dagger and if it proc's it could win the figth even though I do less dmg.

I think that small sollution that would fix at least some is change Mid leather and give all BB's access to AF. However is it gonna happened - no imho. However I feel that with NF SB have gotten better, with access to better Purge, Tireless and my personal favorite Second Wind. However relics fuck up any balance - a bit sad imho.

 

[Khartoum]

The results of a small test

http://xandau.no-ip.com/~djinn/dmglog.htm

Judochop hitting Indriid in this test. The dmg looks totally normal to me, and I do know that it can be boosted some with an additional 5% style bonus and so forth, like for instance Forb has. Critical add dmg lines have been removed - what you see is the "pure" initial dmg.
The dmg in this test looks just a wee bit heavier than what I recall doing pre-NF using the exact same spec and equipment setup without the 20% bonus from relics we have now. My dmg before NF using heat on SB/NS averaged between 200-250, sometimes closing up to 270'ish. Doing some 300 hits in this test, averaging dmg on 250-270 or thereabout, slightly higher than before NF. Looks as expected for having 20% bonus to me.

Like Smilewhenyoustathat states, I agree aswell - An eventual Infil dmg bug would manifest itself in a REALLY obvious way. And technically it doesn't sound plausible that the Infil class itself would "suffer" from higher dmg output regardless fighting with slash, DW, CS or thrust.

Speculate for yourselves, people.

Thanks to Indriid for the test~

 

[Gesta]

The highest dmg ive taken from a PA is summat like 1200 from Varg, no inf has ever hit me that hard b4. admittedly i didnt have the right vest on and I was down maybe 5% from melee resists but still pretty impressive.

If I was an SB i'd ask him how to spec and what weapons to use, very rare a SB ever takes me out one on one but he hits like a truck the size of a very large thing.