Infil vs SB

[Whisperess]

SBs are fine.

That's your opinion. You are allowed to have it, but we're also allowed to have our own opinions.

It's nice that Wittor and Robin dare to state that they (and Wittor even admitted that Dragonfang needed a nerf before it was announced) think that SB's are sub-par.

I'd rather listen to them, they have even proved themselves out in the field. You however, hide behind internet "anonymousity" and just troll (as always).

I just wish you would've taken the hint the first time you were banned.

 

[tookha]

where are those fucking logs & pictures of 500dmg mainhand swinging infils

I almost had one today, haven't bothered before, but Wittor must be shit specced as he only hit me for 499 main hand

 

[Vindicator]

also, to give SBs HAMMER specc?!?! uhm. in all the legends and stories where assasins have been a part of the story ive never ever ever heard about an assasin with hammer also. the name Shadowblade indicates that its someone wielding sharp objects, not crushing ones. sry pal, that aint gonna happen

And a dex debuff poison would affect caster speed and tank shield/parry effectiveness - and theres no way mythic is going to let shodwblades do that.

lol - hammer spec. 1 it doesn't fit with the design of an assassin, and 2 they only want it to gain a vuln on both ns and infil armour at the same time (something neither of the other assassins can do) - plus of course its str based and haven't they all been whining like biatches abut str based weapons?

Zera eh you want sb to get some balancing yet your still deeply concerned of the roleplay issue's involved in balancing a class in respect to its counter part? umm well ok, I dont see such a big deal with an assasin using a hammer, just because he is called shadow'blade' doesnt mean he has to use blades ? . The name infiltrator indicates they should accutally infiltrate something useful instead of focusing on wtfpwning all the time :x! You can be as sorry as you like for me but I'd prefer if you suggested instead of doing what you seem best at, putting things / ppl down and whining :>.

Smilewhen has a more valid point about how it would effect shield tanks, with DW already halfing block rate, it would make it alot easier to take shield tanks and of course caster spell speed would be effected alot by it. While its a valid point I dont think it nesscarily automatically discounts it but leaves room for it to be altered to fit better.

As for hammer spec not 'fitting'. Giving shadowblades to slash damage and slash damage isnt exactly 'fitting' either but they've stuck it out since the begining ;>. What about heat lgw's ? all assasins get that and errr everybody is weak to it. Infact they can still stay with a inferior by dmg type choice but superior by style line while still not losing out of damage tables and always gaining that + dmg with heat lgw's :>. So it would actually be a little more balanced for the sb who hasnt had a chance of different dmg dealt until the introduction of heat lgw's.

 

[AtomicBattleHamster]

to bad they dont get the ability to specc around like blind 11 year old on their assasins and still get to get everything from their char. they accually have to plan how to specc when infs just can push train on everything they see :/

What the hell does age have to do with this ?

I'am sick and tired of people relating a computer game character selection to some bitter twisted negative stigma of their personality and/or age.

Yes Infiltrators are certainly a little more tasty now with the Relics in place, yes the 2.5 sepc points should be given to all assassins and yes a majority of people in all the realms are honestly aware of this - nothing much we can do about this really as it stands, unless you have some wonderfully planned protest outside Mythic HQ or vow to take it to the European Union under some elaborate clause you can find

But taking all this information, your displeasure at having a weaker class and coming up with the answer that all people who play Infiltrators are 1. Young 2. Stupid 3. Wanting easy mode; is nothing less than a short sighted, small minded excellent way of making an arse of yourself to those of us who actually fall into the "older" gamer category, to those who've played Infiltrators back in the day when "we" were bottom/middle of the food chain and to those who only play this game for fun (yes I know it might not be fun for you, but we're talking about personal definitions here, not generic)

Anyway, I've found my rattle now, back to my pram.

 

[Vodkafairy]

shadowblades aren't fine.


1) shadowblades have no spec AF and in most cases no haste. 15-20% less effectivity

2) shadowblades have only have str based weapons. if they get debuffed (which should happen every fight) and have no purge up, they will get utterly owned by any half decent assassin. sb's don't have remedy. sb's have slash resistant armor, so other realms can spec str based weapons and still do good damage while debuffed on sb's

3) shadowblades get LA, which after the nerf, is wank. a 3 year old kid could play daoc and start strafing, causing the sb to miss stun, when they see comeback land

4) shadowblades get 5% more hp. WOW.

5) shadowblades get shit styles (just like ns), because of retarded LA mechanics. they can't really afford to spec high in CS because LA will drop too low. if they spec LA to 50 they have no decent styles except a high end medium damage or.. yep.. taunt!

sb's are VERY weak, compared to other assassins they can't do anything except purge debuff, pray and hope they wont find anything over rr3 until purge is up again

 

[Arnor]

Why should the infil have the same style at 50 that the NS gets at 25?

hmm....because they have 2.5 spec points?

seriously, n1 m8

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

shadowblades aren't fine.


1) shadowblades have no spec AF and in most cases no haste. 15-20% less effectivity

SBs can use potions or charges like anyne else. Drop in a stardrop and the gai the +% bonus too. If they do so they will have a marginally lower af than an infil with buffs. note infil has to do this for haste.

2) shadowblades have only have str based weapons. if they get debuffed (which should happen every fight) and have no purge up, they will get utterly owned by any half decent assassin. sb's don't have remedy. sb's have slash resistant armor, so other realms can spec str based weapons and still do good damage while debuffed on sb's

Fair point, but very minor. Should have a thrust line tbh. Compared to the travesty that is albion double spec vs hib LW this is milimetres compared to miles.

3) shadowblades get LA, which after the nerf, is wank. a 3 year old kid could play daoc and start strafing, causing the sb to miss stun, when they see comeback land

No different really to any other style - you see the infil/ns evade then put on your 70's dancing shoes.

4) shadowblades get 5% more hp. WOW.

Look at the real numbers though. Norse SB has around 150 more hits than a saracan, and 200plus more than an elf/luri. les for a kobbie admittedly, but then you don't see many kobbie sbs these days.

5) shadowblades get shit styles (just like ns), because of retarded LA mechanics. they can't really afford to spec high in CS because LA will drop too low. if they spec LA to 50 they have no decent styles except a high end medium damage or.. yep.. taunt!

Effective 51 main and offhand is all thats needed - makes it easy to go high cs by rr5. That argument doesn't wash anymore. And don't make me laugh about ns styles - stun style at 25, usable side style chains in cd. And so what if they have poor LA styles - why use them when CS styles are better than anything in any assassins mh or oh line?

sb's are VERY weak, compared to other assassins they can't do anything except purge debuff, pray and hope they wont find anything over rr3 until purge is up again

Rubbish. SBs just got used to godmode and relics - without them and on a par with everything alse the ones that can't adapt whine because its easier.

 

[Jimmi]

You and ya bum chum, ISmileWhileITakeItUpTheAss have not disproved Ingrid's comments either, so instead of being the complete muther fecking retard you are, why not provide your own figures showing different? Or at least provide some argument against him. That way Ingrid gets pwned, Mid SB's get pwned, you look cool and look like you actually have a f3cking clue.

The only thing I've ever seen you prove in almost three years of posting is that you are number one on Excal for being the utter biggest pr1ck on this board. It's people like you and you bum chum why so much of this board is full of utter bollux, just full of flames and why noone posts anything other than “Gratz IdontHave a life R14” threads.

Why do you command the English language like a base ball bat, is it because you're not intelligent enough to use it constructively? Do you play DAoC from a young offenders institution?

I really wouldn't bother replying either, you're so unoriginal and we've all heard it all before, we should call you Aussie Ariston, cos your sh1te goes on and on and on and
on and on....

Ingrid asked for a debate not a fecking flame, give him that or stfu.

/agree!!!!

 

[AtomicBattleHamster]

shadowblades aren't fine.


1) shadowblades have no spec AF and in most cases no haste. 15-20% less effectivity

2) shadowblades have only have str based weapons. if they get debuffed (which should happen every fight) and have no purge up, they will get utterly owned by any half decent assassin. sb's don't have remedy. sb's have slash resistant armor, so other realms can spec str based weapons and still do good damage while debuffed on sb's

3) shadowblades get LA, which after the nerf, is wank. a 3 year old kid could play daoc and start strafing, causing the sb to miss stun, when they see comeback land

4) shadowblades get 5% more hp. WOW.

5) shadowblades get shit styles (just like ns), because of retarded LA mechanics. they can't really afford to spec high in CS because LA will drop too low. if they spec LA to 50 they have no decent styles except a high end medium damage or.. yep.. taunt!

sb's are VERY weak, compared to other assassins they can't do anything except purge debuff, pray and hope they wont find anything over rr3 until purge is up again

All valid points, bar point 1.

Spec AF is NOT an Infiltrator ability, it's not this magic buff we get handed upon dinging 50. We both know this. But that aside, I'll admit that everyone knows most stealthers use BB's and spec AF should be available in all buff lines - so In a roundabout way I agree, just not with it being a valid weakness of the class itself.

That aside, whilst you might have pointed out all the things wrong with the Shadowblade, it falls on deaf ears. GoA don't have the clout (legally, afterall they "manage" european DAoC and only have the infrastructure to support that) to make the changes the community feel it needs. Mythic seem to have lost their way with regards to balance of the stealth classes, but then again maybe they've just washed their hands with possibly the most whiney community since Counter-Strike.net general forum goers - it would seem they make one group happy for 6-10 months, then nerf them at the cries of the other 2 realms and there we have an ever decreasing circle.......and ever decreasing subscriptions

 

[Vodkafairy]

SBs can use potions or charges like anyne else. Drop in a stardrop and the gai the +% bonus too. If they do so they will have a marginally lower af than an infil with buffs. note infil has to do this for haste.

i swap 4 items for one charge and i still get 30 less af, it's a fucking pain in the ass but you wouldn't know because you don't have to do it. using a pot is >>>> using a charge, theres no itemswapping involved.

Fair point, but very minor. Should have a thrust line tbh. Compared to the travesty that is albion double spec vs hib LW this is milimetres compared to miles.

It's not a minor point. Losing 118 stat or 64 stat is a huge difference. Calling it minor is incredibily stupid, double-speccing in alb is a problem (i agree), but thats completely unrelated to this.

No different really to any other style - you see the infil/ns evade then put on your 70's dancing shoes.

It is a difference, straight off evade is a lot harder to notice. Sure it can be done but still, but even if people won't strafe and shit like that, a chain still sucks compared to direct stun.

Look at the real numbers though. Norse SB has around 150 more hits than a saracan, and 200plus more than an elf/luri. les for a kobbie admittedly, but then you don't see many kobbie sbs these days.

With that argument we can swap to the ns issue. Infils get to choose for slash ws + hp (with downside of poison vulnerability), or dex ws and less hp. Ns can not. Sb's are forced into the slash ws and hp choice, which makes them strong against many classes, but very weak against assassins because of debuff. Even 200 hp is less than a swing, big deal.

Effective 51 main and offhand is all thats needed - makes it easy to go high cs by rr5. That argument doesn't wash anymore. And don't make me laugh about ns styles - stun style at 25, usable side style chains in cd. And so what if they have poor LA styles - why use them when CS styles are better than anything in any assassins mh or oh line?

With the way you type your posts you seem to indicate you can not win any fight without using stun, and the stun for sb's is in LA line. Also i don't think you understand the value of LA/CD/DW spec. Extra offhand hits add an incredibe ammount of damage because of the damage it does (duh), extra proc chance and haste effect (most important). I already said before extra offhand hits make up for the high CS style damage with the downside being having to use a taunt as anytime. Infils however have dual shadows which is simply > all. Offhand hits + high damage anytime, its something i would give my leg nut for.

Rubbish. SBs just got used to godmode and relics - without them and on a par with everything alse the ones that can't adapt whine because its easier.

They aren't on par, they simply aren't. Every post its more obvious you just suck and according to some tests you read, you draw your own biased and flawed conclusions. Experience teaches a lot, you should try to optimise your char and see the power an infil really has, especially with str relics.

 

[Vodkafairy]

All valid points, bar point 1.

Spec AF is NOT an Infiltrator ability, it's not this magic buff we get handed upon dinging 50. We both know this. But that aside, I'll admit that everyone knows most stealthers use BB's and spec AF should be available in all buff lines - so In a roundabout way I agree, just not with it being a valid weakness of the class itself.

That aside, whilst you might have pointed out all the things wrong with the Shadowblade, it falls on deaf ears. GoA don't have the clout (legally, afterall they "manage" european DAoC and only have the infrastructure to support that) to make the changes the community feel it needs. Mythic seem to have lost their way with regards to balance of the stealth classes, but then again maybe they've just washed their hands with possibly the most whiney community since Counter-Strike.net general forum goers - it would seem they make one group happy for 6-10 months, then nerf them at the cries of the other 2 realms and there we have an ever decreasing circle.......and ever decreasing subscriptions

oh i lost all hope mythic/goa gives a shit about their service, but as long as theres way to make daoc enjoyable ill stick around i know spec af isnt a class ability.. but if you run w/o buffs you will die easy no matter what, unfortunately. or have one fight every 1-3 hours

 

[Indrid]

Just waiting for my friend to get online so i can post the damage screenies now! some random hits from 2 different infils.. rr 5 and rr 9.. so u can see what damage they do.. and damage while they being debuffed vs non debuffed SB etc..soon inc

 

[censi]

infs always been as tough as nails (even with mid having the str relics OF SB were getting dropped left right and centre by infs)

with all the str relics infs are light years ahead in melee damage output.

The problem is the Str relics really, and even more of a problem is alb are gonna have all the relics for the forseeable future.

 

[tookha]

Just waiting for my friend to get online so i can post the damage screenies now! some random hits from 2 different infils.. rr 5 and rr 9.. so u can see what damage they do.. and damage while they being debuffed vs non debuffed SB etc..soon inc

I can host them for you if you'd like, I'll seek you up on irc ^^

 

[Indrid]

Oki, here is some of the tests...

http://www.radio6.no/bagr/

here is some of the screens mixed together to some screenies.. also 1 duel where info is on screen

 

[Indrid]

will also get some more stats in soon.. will do some testing with Elajt rr 10 infil.. which is speccet thrust if im correct.. have af charge on those tests so total 671 (726 incase gov procs, which it does alot)

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

Oki, here is some of the tests...

http://www.radio6.no/bagr/

here is some of the screens mixed together to some screenies.. also 1 duel where info is on screen

Same old same old - a few fights where huge numbers of variables aren't taken into account.

1. He's got 20% bonus on you for relics.
2, He's got 10% damage bonus on your leather.

Thats 30% difference expained off the bat without even looking at buffs, af and spec. Really this has been done time and time again - base damage is comparable.

 

[Appollo]

Me and Indriid did a few hits:

http://www.pollyworld.co.uk/Stuff/Indriid.JPG

Funny thing is after we had a duel with all ra's and arti's, he won :eek2:

malice charge (arrogance) > me, even though every swing i was doing double damage, i had som/battler charge up but still lost, pre-toa he would be hanging with Elvis

 

[Methos]

I've recently started playing my infil again, shelved him when TOA came out. Just recently made a toa suit for him and i've noticed a major increase in damage. anytimes often hit for 300+.

Mostly i think this damage comes from TOA bonus + legendary weapons + relic bonus. This is the first time since toa came out that alb has had 3 str relics for a decent amount of time.

I've noticed a LOT of stealthers (and nonstealthers) are not maxed in heat and cold resist, that matters a lot.

I don't think there's a damage bug in the game currently but my infil does hit like a truck now, which im happy with.

 

[Eluvia]

Well with Dual shadows pre TOA all 3 str relics ifnils were hitting for 260 mainahnd 140 offhand if longdirk more like 90 if dirk, so the 10% melee dmg and style dmg kind of fits in the rest. Note: This is with dual shadows, while dual shadows is a good style, if u are a skilled strafer, u can stop them drom using dual sahdows whilst spamming an anytime urself.

 

[Ketinna]

What the hell does age have to do with this ?

I'am sick and tired of people relating a computer game character selection to some bitter twisted negative stigma of their personality and/or age.

Yes Infiltrators are certainly a little more tasty now with the Relics in place, yes the 2.5 sepc points should be given to all assassins and yes a majority of people in all the realms are honestly aware of this - nothing much we can do about this really as it stands, unless you have some wonderfully planned protest outside Mythic HQ or vow to take it to the European Union under some elaborate clause you can find

But taking all this information, your displeasure at having a weaker class and coming up with the answer that all people who play Infiltrators are 1. Young 2. Stupid 3. Wanting easy mode; is nothing less than a short sighted, small minded excellent way of making an arse of yourself to those of us who actually fall into the "older" gamer category, to those who've played Infiltrators back in the day when "we" were bottom/middle of the food chain and to those who only play this game for fun (yes I know it might not be fun for you, but we're talking about personal definitions here, not generic)

Anyway, I've found my rattle now, back to my pram.

i Couldnt say it better myself about the young stupid easy mode part, and if you dont think that is true well then i geuss youre one of them, but correct me if im wrong...

and if "older" means you want a challenge from the game, then im geuss im older with the rest of the people who enjoy game but taking on challenges and then might in the end "win"

and one more thing, when you were younger didnt you cheat on warcraft, or quake singleplayer when it was to hard? i did, and i enjoyed it anyway. didnt really think about it might be more fun if i struggle for something and get it or if i just get it.

From my point of view, in daoc, infiltraitors, they have it more easy with LA mechanics, 2 kind of dmg from weapons, more kind of artifacts because of it. more specc points, and you could therefore say they have alot of diffrent specc possiblity, but they accually have so many specc points they can specc for it all, they dont even have to sacrifices anything. they also get the ability to choose 100% WS lose from SB poison or 50% WS lose, where SB only can choose 100%. so when you play a class that has the upperhand, im having it a hard time believing they do it because of the challenge especielly when they seems to like teaming up, not that all the Stealthers dont at times but inf just as the rest team up sometimes, even though they are overpowered.

thats why it seems to me that they arent really that mature, they dont understand that they are overpowered, or they just want easy mode.

Im still at the part of the road where you should correct me if im wrong..

 

[Appollo]

Personally i have always found SB's tough cookies, pre-nf i jumped Foorau twice with PA and lost both times, jumped him other day and killed him with about 95% hp's left. Salamurhajawotsit was always tought to beat, as is Jox (who QQ's 24/7) but most others i have beat many times over. I dont really know who is better, sb's or infils, iv played mine for nearly 2 years as mostly solo/duo (word 2 Wittor/Papasan) and still cant put my finger on why 1 is better than the other. I have from time to time played sb's and truly couldnt be arse 2 walk every night and get TS'ed @ AMG emain by 400 scouts. I was hoping NF might change the stealth attitude and open it up alot more, but seems it got 100 times worse. Solo or even duo infil isnt as much fun with the rr7 trio of sb's wondering around, and ofc why solo when Mythic nerfed rp's for high rr's?.

These are my thoughts, they not right, they not wrong, but a nicely tuned SB in the right hands seems imo a very strong assasin. I cant comment on NS's cos i very rarely fight any, ofc with AP they was always a pain. I think scouts gonna get there own back (sh days pre-nerf was nasty) for a while, and after 3 years i cant see Mythic doing much else to the stealth classes (maybe bring back 9 sec stun? ).

Im gonna fo now

 

[Ging]

boo!

 

[Stasi]

steam roll me for 500 a hit np, but plz remove stun from this game

 

[WiZe^]

pft, meleeranger pwnz 4ll

Qvuinna Ownz

 

[Jaem-]

Same old same old - a few fights where huge numbers of variables aren't taken into account.

1. He's got 20% bonus on you for relics.
2, He's got 10% damage bonus on your leather.

Thats 30% difference expained off the bat without even looking at buffs, af and spec. Really this has been done time and time again - base damage is comparable.

Why not put the shield down you often seem to be weilding in these debaits, stop class defending?

So keen to push things aside when its about certain classes I've noticed, just look at the big picture and maybe help do alil testing and see if you can disproof what people are saying instead of just saying old info to people that are trying to make on effort.

 

[Jaem-]

1) shadowblades have no spec AF and in most cases no haste. 15-20% less effectivity

Expect everyone to be buffed, you'll have a greater understanding of classes you can take or not.

No spec af on other realms kind of sucks, having to switch items so often, recharge them all the time, and the fact it stops them using abilities for a certain time.

Tho I read that ranger/hunters maybe getting it in their buff line, yay weeeee more people rolling archers for this I guess. :|

 

[Veg]

12 Pages of crap later and still there is no hard evidence of 350+(420+) & 160+(192+) dmg per swing.
Just point less arguing, there again, that's what these forums are about I suppose .

 

[Vodkafairy]

12 Pages of crap later and still there is no hard evidence of 350+(420+) & 160+(192+) dmg per swing.
Just point less arguing, there again, that's what these forums are about I suppose .

errr, try again, there are screenies posted of damage like that.

 

[Whisperess]

Look at the real numbers though. Norse SB has around 150 more hits than a saracan, and 200plus more than an elf/luri. les for a kobbie admittedly, but then you don't see many kobbie sbs these days.

Are you genuinly retarded, or just trying hard to look like it?

In your numbers, you're quoting the 20 con difference, as well as the base hp bonus which is 50'ish hitpoints.

Should we then start mentioning the WS difference?

Norse with 15 STR at creation get 100 STR at lvl 50 (yes, our only stat affecting WS is a tertiary stat) and 95 DEX

Saracen with 10 STR/10 DEX at creation get 75 str, 135 dex at lvl 50 (yes, one of those stats is primary, second is tertiary)

In WS, this equals 675 WS for Shadowblade at lvl 50, RR1 without SC and 50 weaponspec (which won't happen without seriously sacrificing another line) and 689 WS for the infiltrator with same setup. (and that's with SB sacrificing 5 points at creation to raise WS as much that can be spared).

Then you take into account the fact that there are both STR debuff and STR/CON debuff poisons, but no poisons to lower DEX at all, and you get an even larger separation in WS. (319 to 437 vs. 160 to 219 extra WS difference, calculated while being fully buffed and +75 to important stats on armor). Fair, isn't it?

Add to that melee vulnerabilities with leather. If you want to swap leather types with us, I'd be glad to. (so that you get slash weak and we get crush weak leather)

You want our haste? Fine, give us the spec AF then - but only if you would need two (2) buffbots to use the haste.

2.5 spec points doesn't matter you say? FYI, it's a difference of 453 spec points.

SB's have enough to spec 36 in all lines, with 35 stealth/envenom (or 36 in all lines with full autotraining to level 48, but say at RR5 they spec 35 st, 35 env, 35 cs, 35 weap and 39 LA (to raise overall damage and get our chance to stun [which can be avoided btw, even if we land comeback]) - whereas the infil can raise thrust to 50 with full autotrain if they drop DW to 34 - or go 44 cs/42 dw or 49 cs/35 dw - clearly no advantage at all.

I for one would gladly swap our 50'ish bonus hp for 453 extra spec points.

You want to bring up our fabulous perk of being able to use a 2h weapon?

Well, it would be a nice perk if only the chance to evade against them wasn't twice as high as against two weapons (infils don't have parry to begin with, so one perk of 2h weapons get lost), and if the CS openers wouldn't work differently than normal styles (with suitable growth rates so assassins would land near the current damage when using two weapons).

Unlike you, I'm not pulling numbers out of my arse. If you don't have anything substantial to add to the discussion, kindly troll somewhere else.