incapacity benefits

[00dave]

Well it's been all over the news today so I was wondering what your opinions were of the idea?

Listening to the Jermemy Vine show today a lot of people texting in saying that their depression and stress problems meant there was no way they could work. I just think they're lazy bastards.

And Toh before you post you must at least read this article 2.6 million on incapacity benefits to face tough new Tory tests - Telegraph

Apologies for the telegraph link, I usually use the BBC but their article on the benefit system seems to have shrunk to a paragraph and merged with an entire article about the tories.

 

[tris-]

i dont disagree with the theories. people who should work should fucking well work.
but to analyse it a bit further, what impact will this have on the people who will still refuse to work but then earn less money from benefits?
im guessing most of these people are from poor areas or your typical 'chav' family.
could it lead to an increase in anti social behaviour?

 

[nath]

im guessing most of these people are from poor areas or your typical 'chav' family.
could it lead to an increase in anti social behaviour?

Interesting question, but if that's the case should we keep paying people to stop them from being anti-social?

 

[throdgrain]

Interesting question, but if that's the case should we keep paying people to stop them from being anti-social?

No we bloody shouldnt.

 

[nath]

No we bloody shouldnt.

Well yeah, that was my point .

 

[Tom]

Listening to the Jermemy Vine show today a lot of people texting in saying that their depression and stress problems meant there was no way they could work. I just think they're lazy bastards.

They'll soon start working when there's no food in the cupboard.

 

[00dave]

they'll soon stop being antisocial when they haven't got enough money to pay for their tracksuits and their food. They'll either have to mug people naked or be so weak they can't run away from the people who fight back.

I'd also like to point out that the other week ther was that program about wounded soliders. One guy lost both legs and his left arm and he went back to work without crying about incapacity benefits. So to all the depression sufferers get for a bloody walk and be grateful you can.

 

[nath]

So to all the depression sufferers get for a bloody walk and be grateful you can.

Hurray for a complete lack of understanding what depression is!

 

[Jupitus]

Indeed - I was staying out of this but that is a bit OTT Dave - admittedly there could be many fakers claiming, and I support the overall aim of filtering out the crappy malingerers, but don't look down your nose at people with depression please... it's very real and very debilitating.

 

[tris-]

Interesting question, but if that's the case should we keep paying people to stop them from being anti-social?

of course not but were not dealing with normal citizens.
the type of people wrongly claiming benefits are the type of people that will cause all kinds of havoc if they are forced to live on less money.

im definatly not in favour of these people just to make that clear. i just think the impact should be considered.

They'll either have to mug people naked or be so weak they can't run away from the people who fight back.

exactly. consider the spare time activities of anti social people while theyre on these benefits.

consider their spare time activities when the benefit is reduced. if anything, their unsavoury shenanigans would surely get worse to compensate.

 

[00dave]

Hurray for a complete lack of understanding what depression is!

I do understand it, I understand its made worse by people labeling themselves
my ex girlfriend had it, she's only just been given the all clear by her gp. I like to think she was helped a lot by the weekend road trips I insisted on.

It was also a road I've nearly been down a few times myself. The first time I did something rather drastic to avoid it, I joined the RAF.
I honestly can't think of a worse thing to do for a manic depressive than to sit at home alone with no purpose in life.

A great line from flight of the phoenix "I think a man only needs one thing in life. He just needs someone to love. If you can't give him that, then give him something to hope for. And if you can't give him that, just give him something to do."

 

[nath]

You mention manic depression there, you realise that (bi-polar disorder) is something fairly different. My brother suffers from that and I can tell you that getting out and about is not a cure.

 

[Jupitus]

I do understand it, I understand its made worse by people labeling themselves
my ex girlfriend had it, she's only just been given the all clear by her gp. I like to think she was helped a lot by the weekend road trips I insisted on.

It was also a road I've nearly been down a few times myself. The first time I did something rather drastic to avoid it, I joined the RAF.
I honestly can't think of a worse thing to do for a manic depressive than to sit at home alone with no purpose in life.

A great line from flight of the phoenix "I think a man only needs one thing in life. He just needs someone to love. If you can't give him that, then give him something to hope for. And if you can't give him that, just give him something to do."

There are many forms of mental illness which get wrapped up in the 'depression' tag. Not all of them can be handled in the same way at all... that is what you need to bear in mind.

 

[00dave]

Indeed - I was staying out of this but that is a bit OTT Dave - admittedly there could be many fakers claiming, and I support the overall aim of filtering out the crappy malingerers, but don't look down your nose at people with depression please... it's very real and very debilitating.

I imagine it is, I have to imagine it because I avoided it myself.
The problem is most people don't know how to combat it, it's a chemical imbalance so they pump themselves full of drugs to rebalance the imbalance. That just solves the problem temporarily, the route of the problem needs to be adressed. Like I said the worst thing you could do is nothing and hope the drugs will solve it.

 

[Jupitus]

You mention manic depression there, you realise that (bi-polar disorder) is something fairly different. My brother suffers from that and I can tell you that getting out and about is not a cure.

I have 'severe depression' handled with daily meds, but my son has bi-polar disorder which is way more complex and getting the right medication for him has been very difficult indeed. out and about is not the cure, as Nath says, for many cases... in fact to some extent it was the out and about that triggered my own condition about 5 years ago....

 

[tris-]

someone discuss my points ffs

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Hurray for a complete lack of understanding what depression is!

I agree. The only thing I'm trying to decide is if the original post is trolling or uninformed to a very great degree.

 

[nath]

I have 'severe depression' handled with daily meds, but my son has bi-polar disorder which is way more complex and getting the right medication for him has been very difficult indeed.

Fucking sucks doesn't it. Have you managed to find a good balance for him or still struggling?



Dave, I think the key point here is understanding that there's a difference between "feeling a bit depressed" i.e. glum and can't be bothered to do shit, and *actual* clinical depression.

 

[Jupitus]

Fucking sucks doesn't it. Have you managed to find a good balance for him or still struggling?

Mostly there as in control of the extremes, but it's still painful to watch

 

[MYstIC G]

No we bloody shouldnt.

Indeed. Bludgeon them. Preferably in a manner that allows them exist but not speak after said bludgeoning.

 

[nath]

Mostly there as in control of the extremes, but it's still painful to watch

They say it actually improves with age, hopefully this is true.

 

[00dave]

Ok I can't comment on bi polar I have no experience with it on know little about it.

But Jup I didn't say out and about. I was comparing depression to the brave guy who lost his legs and arm, he would have a reason to be depressed but he doesnt because he focussed on his goals. Of course it's different for everyone but finding out the route cause of the depression is better than pumping yourself full of drugs. Also Jup unless I'm mistaken you have a job, a good one I imagine, wouldn't you feel worse if you sat at home all day. and that was the point I was trying to make.

It goes without saying that I mean no personal offense to anyone in particular.

 

[00dave]

of course not but were not dealing with normal citizens.
the type of people wrongly claiming benefits are the type of people that will cause all kinds of havoc if they are forced to live on less money.

im definatly not in favour of these people just to make that clear. i just think the impact should be considered.



exactly. consider the spare time activities of anti social people while theyre on these benefits.

consider their spare time activities when the benefit is reduced. if anything, their unsavoury shenanigans would surely get worse to compensate.

sorry tris I missed your post lol.

I don't think the scum of Britain will increase their crime rate for the sake of 20 odd quid. They're not motivated by money as it is, they're motivated by boredom and just generally being arseholes with no morals.

 

[Jupitus]

Ok I can't comment on bi polar I have no experience with it on know little about it.

But Jup I didn't say out and about. I was comparing depression to the brave guy who lost his legs and arm, he would have a reason to be depressed but he doesnt because he focussed on his goals. Of course it's different for everyone but finding out the route cause of the depression is better than pumping yourself full of drugs. Also Jup unless I'm mistaken you have a job, a good one I imagine, wouldn't you feel worse if you sat at home all day. and that was the point I was trying to make.

It goes without saying that I mean no personal offense to anyone in particular.

I saw the show you are referring to, and that guy was truly awe-inspiring and yes, an example to us all. The problem is it is not possible to easily categorise depression or other forms of mental illness nor is it easy to diagnose well.... this makes it an easy way for the loafer scum to take a ride on it as there aren't physical symptoms to be held as evidence. All I was trying to do was make sure there is a balance to the viewpoints in this thread once the subject came up.

Yes, I have a good job and I enjoy it when I am i the right frame of mind. 3 or 4 days without my meds and yes, I most definitely WOULD rather sit at home, but that is why I take them

As for personal offence, absolutely none from me, nor I expect from others. It just seemed like you were being somewhat naiive about mental illness and I think Nath and I are only trying to give a clearer view of the subject

 

[old.user4556]

The problem is it is not possible to easily categorise depression or other forms of mental illness nor is it easy to diagnose well.... this makes it an easy way for the loafer scum to take a ride on it as there aren't physical symptoms to be held as evidence.

Exactly. It's very hard to quantify or put a finger on a lot of mental illness. Allegedly, depression is rife on my dad's side of the family, but coincidentally they also have more than their fair share of loafers and lazy people on permanent sick leave. My aunty on my dad's side's best advice to those who are having a stressful time at work is to "go on the sick". They have no problem feeding the doctor a line to get signed off. It's a fucking joke, they need a serious boot up the arse in my opinion.

On the flip side, my missus that I live with is also medicated on a low dose and sees a psychologist, so I see it first hand. It can be hard to live with, she isn't so much unhappy, but she has moments of low where she wants to sleep for extended periods, loses touch, doesn't want to go out, won't wash for days. Small problems are blown out of massive proportion; catching a cold becomes a dramatic bed ridden disease. She has improved somewhat now that her life has a direction, she has a plan for her life for the next four years (going back to uni etc.) so she has a lot more motivation and get up and go. She's doing very well now. I actually wonder if some 'depression' can stem from a sense of hopelessness with life, feeling like you've failed even by a young age. A change of life circumstances for the better maybe kickstart certain people out of it and into a positive and productive life in a similar fashion that people plunge into depression and despair on losing a job, the death of a loved one or some other tragic event.

 

[00dave]

I actually wonder if some 'depression' can stem from a sense of hopelessness with life, feeling like you've failed even by a young age. A change of life circumstances for the better maybe kickstart certain people out of it and into a positive and productive life in a similar fashion that people plunge into depression and despair on losing a job, the death of a loved one or some other tragic event.

As per usual someone else words it better than me lol, that was pretty much what I was saying except without the judgemental attitude I seem to adopt sometimes.
It was certainly the case for me, I was very close to the symptoms you described but joining the RAF gave me something to work towards.

And Jup sorry to come back to this but sure you'd like to stay at home if you don't take you meds, we all like a day off once in a while. But you ask anyone currently out of work (who wants to go back to work) but doesn't suffer from depression how being at home all day with no daily routine feels. When I was on the dole for 1 month (and its only ever been one month in my life so far) I was feeling really down, not seriously depressed but I don't think it can be good for sufferers of serious depression.

 

[ford prefect]

I think the main problem here is GP's. Most GP's have very little mental health experience or training, and they often diagnose depression far too readily and hand out anti-depressants all to easily. I have no doubt that there are people out there who who swing the lead a little bit and claim to have depression for the benefits.

Having said all that, I work in mental health and have for years, and true depression is an appalling condition which can be truly crippling, and depression can occur with absolutely no apparent cause whatsoever.

 

[tris-]

can we get this back on track to the issue of benefits?
i know dave blundered on depression we all get it now, maybe that can go in another thread?

 

[Zede]

glad i dont come here much, with shits on a stick like the poster, no wonder !


i love some one who posts with a resonable, balanced approach to a subject, makes me wanna post a balanced response. ah sod it, dave is a tit ! ( no idea if this is a general thing, or just this thread, but defo a young tory)

 

[rynnor]

I thought the real problem with incapacity benefit was the legacy of the miners strikes.

The Conservative Govt scrapped all those mines which lead to whole towns being on the dole - in an attempt to massage the figures they let them all go onto Incapacity benefit so that the Unemployment rate dropped.

Those guys are still on Incapacity benefit now - some 20 years later - blighting whole communities.