Ianal....

[WPKenny]

We've hit a bit of a snag with the house. It could be nothing more than a little hiccup that's all over with by tomorrow but. I'm feeling run down and it's just another snag in the long list of "what if"'s and "maybe"'s of moving house.

Our buyers have decided that 60+ years left on the leasehold isn't long enough. It seems someone's told them it may affect their ability to sell on down the line.
So we've had to instruct our solicitors to contact the leaseholder and see if they'll extend the lease another 30 years.
It's all down to a coin toss, a whim, as to whether the leaseholder feels it worth their while extending the lease for another 30 years.

Where do we stand if it turns out it's not just a stipulation of the buyers that the lease be extended but a requirement of any lender? It would effectively mean we're stuck in the house, only being able to rent it out at best. Are there any sort of rights we have if the leaseholder doesn't want to extend the lease?

 

[DaGaffer]

In England and Wales you almost always have the right to extend your lease (its different on commercial property and listed buildings). Am I right in thinking you're in NI? The rules may be different there but I doubt it. This is basically the buyers trying to get you to cough up for the fees to extend the lease. You need to check with your lawyer and find out what it costs, and how long it takes (which may be the clincher), then make the decision on whether you want to take the hit (it won't be that much compared to the sums involved in buying/selling) or argue it out with the buyer.

 

[MYstIC G]

Where are you in the selling process? Have you already exchanged contracts?

 

[Trem]

This leasehold stuff is very southern isn't it? I had never heard of this sort of thing until I had to sell some dead relatives property in Dorset.

So the land you are on will never be yours, is that correct?

Seems a shitty thing tbh, if I buy a property I want it to be mine or am I getting my wires crossed?

 

[WPKenny]

Thanks for the replies.

The property is in Kent. The buyers, since they proposed the extension, have already said they will contribute towards costs. I'm probably being over dramatic and just thinking about it too much, but like I said I've just been having a low day and this news didn't help. I was after a bit of reassurance that the chances of this arseing up the sale of the house are slim so what DaGaffer said has been a little comforting.

The idea of leaseholding is a bizzare one but our current situation is a long series of events. Long story short... we rented this house at first, owners decided to sell, we looked around and found nothing we liked, boss at the time helped me get a mortgage.
And here we've stayed. It was never meant to be more than a rental and the thought of almost being trapped here cos of some silly bit of paper that may or may not have consequences for the property over 60 years from now seems utterly depressing.

 

[nath]

Definitely check out how much it'll cost to purchase the freehold, you may well be allowed to do that - it also may not cost much more than renewing the lease and it will make it much easier to sell, probably even increase the value of the property. As I understand, anything under 90-100 years becomes more difficult to shift.

 

[dysfunction]

This is probably a good place to get some info on extending your lease.
lease extention, short lease, leasehold extention, extend lease, property lease extention, extend my lease, short lease extention advice - Leasehold Guidance Service

As it says there you need to be in the property for 2 years in order to extend the lease. I assume you have.

This is the interesting bit and perhaps you could do this instead of extending the lease yourself:

if you want to sell up, you can sell on your rights under Section 43 of the 1993 Act so the new purchaser does not have to wait 2 years to qualify

There are also options to buy the freehold so you can actually own the property outright. But since you are selling thats of no interest to you....unless you are buying another leasehold

 

[tris-]

Where do we stand if it turns out it's not just a stipulation of the buyers that the lease be extended but a requirement of any lender? It would effectively mean we're stuck in the house, only being able to rent it out at best. Are there any sort of rights we have if the leaseholder doesn't want to extend the lease?

sounds like the same problem we have. for 3 years the solicitor has just been saying "yeh sure we will sort it". nope, it aint sorted and weve already moved into a new house. best we can do is rent it out at half the mortgage rate.

dont want to put a downer on it, but be prepared to wait. my dad nearly beat the guy up before for causing so much stress but we cant yet make him do anything.

 

[Chilly]

moving house is gay, and leases are especially gay. My advice? Lube. Less painful, see?

 

[dysfunction]

sounds like the same problem we have. for 3 years the solicitor has just been saying "yeh sure we will sort it". nope, it aint sorted and weve already moved into a new house. best we can do is rent it out at half the mortgage rate.

dont want to put a downer on it, but be prepared to wait. my dad nearly beat the guy up before for causing so much stress but we cant yet make him do anything.

I suggest getting someone who will actually do the job.

The process shouldn't be painful. It doesn't take a genius to do it.
In fact anyone who knows the process can do it. you don't have to be a solicitor.

If you need a helping hand let me know as my gf is a trainee solicitor and knows how to sort out the leasehold. I could ask her to get it sorted out without too much hassle.

ps: obviously if she refuses to cooperate then you are on your own!

 

[tris-]

i think its more complicated than im making it out to be. the land is owned by another firm and we are trying to get the lease off them or something, or have it extended. everyone in the area formed a company to buy the leases off the solicitor.
now we use a different solictor to him for selling the house etc but people who use him to sell the house, he sorts the lease straight away. for everyone else, 3 years later he still wont sort it. i dont know what can actually be done. im pestering my parents to see what, if any, contract was made at the time but they dont seem too clued up on it.

 

[dysfunction]

Firstly i suggest you change your avatar cos its quite disturbing.

Secondly did you say you are buying the lease from the solicitor? I(f the solicior is acting for others and owns the freehold then perhaps a conflict of interest and therefore the 3 year delay...

Sounds quite messy but still shouldn't last 3 years!

 

[WPKenny]

Well it seems we've started the ball rolling, albeit at a crawl.
The people we post the cheque to forward the money on to a management company. Unsurprisingly they won't give us the details. So we've had to write to them asking them to pass on our details to the management company so the management company can pass the details onto the landlord(s) so that they can get in touch with our solicitors so that our solicitors can ask them to extend the lease. *breath*

 

[dysfunction]

Well it seems we've started the ball rolling, albeit at a crawl.
The people we post the cheque to forward the money on to a management company. Unsurprisingly they won't give us the details. So we've had to write to them asking them to pass on our details to the management company so the management company can pass the details onto the landlord(s) so that they can get in touch with our solicitors so that our solicitors can ask them to extend the lease. *breath*

why don't you sell your right to extend the lease to the people who are buying from you? It would be easier for you and the purchaser should be happy...as they can extend the lease at their convenience and the sale will be quicker

 

[DaGaffer]

Well it seems we've started the ball rolling, albeit at a crawl.
The people we post the cheque to forward the money on to a management company. Unsurprisingly they won't give us the details. So we've had to write to them asking them to pass on our details to the management company so the management company can pass the details onto the landlord(s) so that they can get in touch with our solicitors so that our solicitors can ask them to extend the lease. *breath*

Err, what do you mean "unsurprisingly"? They've got a duty to give you all the information you need. This isn't a case of you asking for a new lease, its your right. Apart from anything else, if there was ever a problem with the property (say subsidence) then you should have a direct relationship with the management company at very least.

As for it being a requirement of the lender, I seriously doubt it. Because of the law change in '93, the leassor simply can't stop you extending the lease, so leases have gone from being important to just a pain-in-the-arse admin thing as far as banks and building societies are concerned.

 

[dysfunction]

Err, what do you mean "unsurprisingly"? They've got a duty to give you all the information you need. This isn't a case of you asking for a new lease, its your right. Apart from anything else, if there was ever a problem with the property (say subsidence) then you should have a direct relationship with the management company at very least.

As for it being a requirement of the lender, I seriously doubt it. Because of the law change in '93, the leassor simply can't stop you extending the lease, so leases have gone from being important to just a pain-in-the-arse admin thing as far as banks and building societies are concerned.

Yes exactly!

Obviously there are people out there willing to cause delays due to the fact that the "ordinary man in the street" has no idea whats involved and accepts whatever he has been told...

 

[Damini]

Oh, I wish I could "Whoopi Goldberg in Ghost becoming all Swayze" channel you guys when I'm on the phone. I ask and ask these sensible questions, and just get dismissed as a simpleton, then I feel like a mopron and crawl away.

I asked my solicitor about selling on the right, or maybe her secretary, at least as high up the phone chain as they deigned to let me go, and she retorted that she'd never heard of such a process, and if I wanted to look at that route I'd have to talk to an expert (and all associated costs were implied). So I backed off. I asked what was happening with my request that she looked into extending the rights, and she said that she needed me to get the direct address before they would begin (not that they'd told me that at the time, and besides, they had all the information that we did).

I phoned the company that takes the thirty quid a year land rent from us, and asked if they would give us the details of the leaseholder. They refused point blank. So now I have posted off a letter to them, which they will forward onto another company afaik, which will then be forwarded onto the leaseholder, asking them to get in touch with our solicitors.

Both the solicitors and the estate agents have said our house is pretty much unmortgagable without the extension.

Suckaroo.

 

[DaGaffer]

I phoned the company that takes the thirty quid a year land rent from us, and asked if they would give us the details of the leaseholder. They refused point blank..

This is the bit I don't understand; who is this company, and how do they have the right to not give you this information? (Answer; they don't). They're the ones you need to get shouty with.

 

[MYstIC G]

Land Register Online may be of help

Get the land registry freehold information for your property (it's a couple of quid) and it'll have who owns the land on it and they should be at the top of the chain of "where's my lease come from"

Of course, all the information you need should actually be in your lease?

As for your solicitor and estate agent, I'd drop the words "due diligence" into the frame as this should all have come up long before now.

 

[WPKenny]

Land Register Online may be of help

Get the land registry freehold information for your property (it's a couple of quid) and it'll have who owns the land on it and they should be at the top of the chain of "where's my lease come from"

Of course, all the information you need should actually be in your lease?

As for your solicitor and estate agent, I'd drop the words "due diligence" into the frame as this should all have come up long before now.

I paid the 3 quid to get the info but it tells us fuck all unfortunately. Just gives the names of the people who own the freehold and nothing more. We already had this info.

We'll just have to wait for our details to be passed on....

 

[MYstIC G]

Is your lease not with those people then?

 

[Ch3tan]

But the don't have the contact details for them meg, just the names. Smells fishy to me kenny, as dagaffer has already pointed out, there is no reason why this third party should not give you those details. The cynic in me is saying that someone is trying to rip you off.

 

[WPKenny]

The only people in this that could be trying to rip me off are the lawyers and it wasn't them who proposed the extension, it was the buyers.

I can understand why they want it sorted before they move in. You can't enforce a statutory extension unless you've lived in the property for 2 years. 60 years left on a lease (apparently) isn't a long time and lenders don't really like to lend against that time frame.
So basically if they moved in, best case scenario for them would be having to wait two years before they could extend the lease and sell up.

We can sell on our 2 yr rights but it's just as much hassle as anything else in terms of paperwork and would cost them ALL the expense in the end. Something I doubt they're up for since they're a young couple with average jobs.

So what they're proposing is a split of the costs involved in a leasehold extension. Not ideal but it means everybody's happy(ish) and we can keep the sale moving forward.

There's no scam here you paranoid people! The money goes to the freeholder and the solicitors. No one else. It's the people buying the house who'll end up with a hike in ground rent if anything.

TBH, if it costs us a grand or so extra to move then I'll pay it. I'll just remember never to buy leasehold properties again unless there's a million years left on the lease.

 

[Gumbo]

Pay both your halves of the anticipated fees into the solicitors before the thing gets in motion. Otherwise you can start going through it, the buyers can pull out of the deal entirely, and the solicitors will still want their fees. If the buyers pull out half way through, the soliciter can claim back the money owed so far and any left can be returned to you and the buyers.

 

[WPKenny]

A wonderfully interesting development for you all who've been following this....

After all this time of our solicitors telling us they've been having trouble getting in touch with the freeholder, he shows up on our doorstep this morning.

Turns out he phoned our solicitor months ago and they said they'd ring him back and never did. They've been telling us they're waiting for a response to a letter they sent him and to keep waiting cos of all these postal strikes. Useless *****.

So anyway. I've had a bitch at our estate agents who reccomended the solicitors and they're going to have words.

We're in a place where we've got to weigh up the pros and cons of cost, timescale etc....

If we carry on as we were it'll cost thousands and only benefit future owners who'll have none of the hassle or expense we are having to go through. (Originally it was going to be split between ourselves and the buyers who wanted the lease extended, but the sale fell through as he injured his back)

We could stop the process and hope whoever buys the house is just as ignorant as we were so they're lumbered with the cost.

Or we could stop the process and hope it won't be raised but if it is, start the whole thing all over again and ask if they would split the costs with us.

All good fun eh?

 

[Chilly]

lawyers and estate agents: absolute *****

 

[Malecheon]

If we carry on as we were it'll cost thousands and only benefit future owners who'll have none of the hassle or expense we are having to go through.

Is the current value of your property based on it being leasehold ? And if so, would the change in value to it becoming freehold offset the costs of acheiving this ?

 

[MYstIC G]

Notes for future reference:

• Any time a solicitor says they've done something, ask for a copy of the letter.
• When they then change their stance ask them to write to whoever they should have and issue you a copy of the letter.
• Once you get your copy (which you'll probably have to chase your solicitor for) then ring the other side and get them to acknowledge receipt of the letter.

I've been of the personal opinion that all legal matters should be conducted solely by Recorded Delivery post for a long time.

 

[WPKenny]

Is the current value of your property based on it being leasehold ? And if so, would the change in value to it becoming freehold offset the costs of acheiving this ?

We may end up doing this but since our solicitors have been so cack we have no idea what the extension may cost. I'm guessing a thousand or so just for solicitors fees. No one can even give a vague figure or how much we might have to pay for the lease extension but I'm guessing it'll be in the thousands.

 

[Damini]

Got the quote today...

Spoiler

Ten to twelve grand, BEFORE any solicitors fees

We're so screwed


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