I was billed after cancelation.

[lefo]

And here we go again...GOA billed me after i canceled my sub. I made sure several times the sub is canceled.

Are there any legal actions available against this kind of behaviour?

 

[ford prefect]

Probably not - but here's the thread for this subject https://forums.freddyshouse.com/warhammer308/233609-fao-goa-subscription.html

And here is the rather stupid explaination posted on war europe on the 17th:

Our account systems were updated last Friday and the option for an automatic renewal of your subscription was added. This renewal, as indicated in the general subscription conditions, makes it easier to manage your account as you do not need to enter your payment details every month.
By default, this automatic renewal is active on all accounts for which the following payment options are used:
American Express
Mastercard
VISA
Carte Bleue (France)
ELV (Germany)
Laser Card (Republic of Ireland)
Domiciliación bancaria (Spain)

Please note that all players that this change concerns have been notified by email, giving them the opportunity (if necessary) to change their account settings before the due date. Check your junkmail or spam folders on your registered email address if you have not received this notice.
If you do not wish to take advantage of this facility then you should log into the website and change your account settings in the 'my profile' section.

Don't expect much of a response from GoA many of us have been waiting four days or more for a real answer to the reason GoA feels the need to make us Opt out of payment rather than Opt in.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Don't expect much of a response from GoA many of us have been waiting four days or more for a real answer to the reason GoA feels the need to make us Opt out of payment rather than Opt in.

There's a reason why i'm paying with game cards and haven't given GoA a single CC/DC number.

I doubt that there will be further comments by CM's or officially now. Historically speaking however laughable their response (and this one was truly comical. Well it would be if we weren't talking about thinly veiled card fraud...) they generally reply once on the forums then make an official statement and that's it. Schtum. Finito. Finished.

My reccomendation is if you don't want to play WAR again, contact your bank and explain that they charged you fraudulently. Most banks should reverse the charges.

 

[Muylaetrix]

American Express
Mastercard
VISA
Carte Bleue (France)
ELV (Germany)
Laser Card (Republic of Ireland)
Domiciliación bancaria (Spain)

i expect all those companies to put GOA on their blacklist.

GOA made a lot of errors in the past and so far i`ve always been `oh well, stuff happens, too bad`. this however is premeditated fraud and theft for which i can find no excuse whatsoever.

 

[Kami]

Claim back via credit card, it wasn't an authorised payment and so it's fraud.

GOA frankly should know better by now, if there's enough cases of it then GOA will have the ability to charge by X card removed.

 

[ford prefect]

GOA frankly should know better by now, if there's enough cases of it then GOA will have the ability to charge by X card removed.

That doesn't seem to be much of a concern to GoA, neither does the permanent loss of a few hundred customers or the damage to their already ropey reputation.

 

[Zebolt]

Hehe, they did the same thing in DAoC, so they still haven't learned? <sigh>

 

[Raven]

Complain to your credit card company. They have taken an unauthorised payment and will have to pay it back.

 

[Tallen]

And here we go again...GOA billed me after i canceled my sub. I made sure several times the sub is canceled.

Are there any legal actions available against this kind of behaviour?

Again it's a sticky one.

Hopefully it's a simple mistake, but regardless I would hope GOA would refund the payment in good faith. However, if you have for some reason not correctly cancelled your account and the autorenew, it might not be so clear cut.

Depends how GOA want to play it i guess, but flashing words like "fraud" and "theft" around is a bit daft when only 1 person here actually knows the full facts.

 

[Zebolt]

Depends how GOA want to play it i guess, but flashing words like "fraud" and "theft" around is a bit daft when only 1 person here actually knows the full facts.

It's faaaaaaaaaaaaar from the first time this has happened Tallen

 

[Jess]

The fact that no official comment has been made after MagnusKs statement a few days ago is indeed a strong indication that this shady behaviour was intentional.

I have just suspended my subscription - and actually dont plan on renewing it now.

 

[Zebolt]

To be fair, I don't think they intentionally steal money from ppl. I think it's rather that they have technical problems with the billing system and it sometimes doesn't end when it's suppose to. It doesn't make it any less wrong since they don't refund the money but I strongly doubt it's intentional.

 

[Wai]

Again it's a sticky one.

Hopefully it's a simple mistake, but regardless I would hope GOA would refund the payment in good faith. However, if you have for some reason not correctly cancelled your account and the autorenew, it might not be so clear cut.

Depends how GOA want to play it i guess, but flashing words like "fraud" and "theft" around is a bit daft when only 1 person here actually knows the full facts.

They've done this many times before with DAoC so its not new to them and it is definatly not 1 person this has happened to.

Everyone who complained about this in the other thread stated they did not setup auto renewal then come a few days later their subscription is in automatic even though they clicked manual. I was one of them for both mine and my gf's account.

If I never checked the FH forum every now and then and never checked the WAR site (even though their news post explaining the opt-in of automatic renewal isn't exactly great anyhow) I would not have known about it and come next month I'd have been billed without my consent.

People selected manual payment then GOA flagged everyone to automatic renewal that used certain (most) payment methods... even though our choice was made, we chose to opt-out! Tbh fraud or theft is not a "daft" word to use considering we already decided to opt-out of automatic renewal yet GOA decided "actually u've got to opt-out again and if you don't see the news then tough".

 

[Imgormiel]

That doesn't seem to be much of a concern to GoA, neither does the permanent loss of a few hundred customers or the damage to their already ropey reputation.

Come back to FH daoc OT, we're missing ur wit ;p

 

[Tallen]

They've done this many times before with DAoC so its not new to them and it is definatly not 1 person this has happened to.

Everyone who complained about this in the other thread stated they did not setup auto renewal then come a few days later their subscription is in automatic even though they clicked manual. I was one of them for both mine and my gf's account.

If I never checked the FH forum every now and then and never checked the WAR site (even though their news post explaining the opt-in of automatic renewal isn't exactly great anyhow) I would not have known about it and come next month I'd have been billed without my consent.

People selected manual payment then GOA flagged everyone to automatic renewal that used certain (most) payment methods... even though our choice was made, we chose to opt-out! Tbh fraud or theft is not a "daft" word to use considering we already decided to opt-out of automatic renewal yet GOA decided "actually u've got to opt-out again and if you don't see the news then tough".

I know, but this specific case might not be as black-and-white as it appears, although in all probability is most likely is. Point is we really only have the OP's word that this is exactly what happened.

Also, if you use phrases like fraud and theft it could be considered slanderous, im not saying anything would ever come of this on a public forum, but it's never wise to band about such words unless you are 100% certain you are right and even then it's not advisable.

I am NOT defending GOA here at all, im just trying to be open minded about this.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

I know, but this specific case might not be as black-and-white as it appears, although in all probability is most likely is. Point is we really only have the OP's word that this is exactly what happened.

Also, if you use phrases like fraud and theft it could be considered slanderous, im not saying anything would ever come of this on a public forum, but it's never wise to band about such words unless you are 100% certain you are right and even then it's not advisable.

I am NOT defending GOA here at all, im just trying to be open minded about this.

After some consideration, i'm inclined to agree that direct accusations of malicious use are probably going a bit far.

However, you and various others are missing the point. I'll break it down as people seem to be getting very confused about this:

• Most people gave GoA their cards info for a single transaction. So your contract with them was a one off payment, for a one-off service. Hence the contract with them was for that period only.
  
• Under UK law if the contract changes, you have to re-affirm your acceptance. They changed the contract by swapping people to automatic billing, and did not get peoples agreement to the new contract (for swapping them to automatic billing).
  [*]They didnt get consent because faliure to reply to a new contract proposal cannot be considered acceptance.

This is a basic legal premise, and cannot be invalidated by clicking the EULA Accept button (before any genius says that). I don't care what you click, there is no legal way to "waive" that right - even if it was written into the EULA you clicked when you made the first payment! (The EULA is at best a legal "grey" area, and certainly not a binding document).

Simply put, it doesn't matter if the cat walked across the GoA subscription keyboard pressing exact credit card numbers "accidentally" it was still their responsibility to:

1) get your acceptance for the new contract.
2) Refund your money once they discovered the "error" immediately.

(As to how i know this, my first job out of university 10+ years ago was for a credit card company on their helpline - we got this hammered into us more than a few times)

 

[Raven]

Malicious use or incompetence it doesn't really matter, it is still breaking the law. The fact that this tactic is nothing new to GOA makes me think that it was done on purpose. indeed the announcement (after the act) says that they turned them on, not that they have somehow been turned on by an error or a mistake.

Ignorance of the law is not a defence, making a mistake that breaks the law is not a defence. There is no excuse or valid reason for doing this except increasing income. Those that wanted their subs to continue would have logged on and done so, leaving those that didn't want to continue to carry on....well, not playing WAR.

 

[Wai]

I know, but this specific case might not be as black-and-white as it appears, although in all probability is most likely is. Point is we really only have the OP's word that this is exactly what happened.

Also, if you use phrases like fraud and theft it could be considered slanderous, im not saying anything would ever come of this on a public forum, but it's never wise to band about such words unless you are 100% certain you are right and even then it's not advisable.

I am NOT defending GOA here at all, im just trying to be open minded about this.

Ah kk m8, sorry btw if it seemed like I was saying you were defending them, didn't mean my post to come across like that

I do see your point but given the large amounts of problems with the subs recently I'd be willing to beleive almost anything as GOa do seem to be able to do anything and think they can get away with it :E

 

[Tallen]

After Nic's comment on the other thread im bailing out of this now, if GOA can't be bothered then i'll be damned if im going to play devils advocate on their behalf anymore.

 

[Reza]

Take it up with your CC provider.

This in all likelyhood means you pay the CC bill (with the goa debit in question included) and inform your provider that you didnt authorise the specific payment.

They will send you paper work to fill out explaining what happened, and you then have the opportunity to quote GOA regarding forced opt in after cancellation and GOA's idea that notice via email constitutes enough justification to activate a previously cancelled account.

What happens hear will likely depend on your CC provider and sadly your credit rating/service within that providers range. The better providers and the better the rating/service you have the more likely the CC provider will choose to reimburse you themselves and then chase the money up with GoA and complain to them.

If enough people complain of similar problems, GOA can be put under pressure with threats over changes to their transaction charges or even removal of the use of certain cards in the worse case scenario.

 

[Reza]

On the issue itself:

It's obvioulsy a calculated decision by GOA, but one I think they've got wrong.

They know that recently alot of players, who have tried the game for a month or two, have decided to quit (for the near future at least). So they figure that now is the right time to pull this sort of stunt off since the prospect of pissing those players off doesn't bother GOA, and the chance of maximising the extra cash they get from unsuspecting customers is at its greatest.

In essence, GOA have calculated that the vast majority of people they turn off by doing this would have been lost customers anyway.

They also figure that enough people wont notice till they are billed at least once, and that of those that notice enough wont be bothered to complain to their card providers.

Lastly there will be a significant number of people who wont notice for along time whom they get to milk for alot of money.

They figure all this probably based on their DAOC experience and they probably arent far off with their expectations of extra "free" income this sort of stunt will bring.

But it all screams of putting very short term profit/interest infront of long term building of reputation/profit.

It's part of a scramble to break even as soon as possible and it's classic idiot franchisee behaviour, and yet another issue that Mythic should be made aware of.

Their isn't much beyond making your customers feel like they have been cheated out of money (no matter how small) that a company could do to alienate itself more, and damage its reputation and that of the franchise as a whole while they are at it. This is something that Mythic would know very well.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Taken from a GoA e-mail responseFor payment through the banking system, your subscription will be renewed automatically starting on the anniversary date of your subscription period for durations identical to the subscription duration that you chose.”

That is not a binding contract, and in fact you have broken UK DC/CC law by doing this. It doesn't matter what subscription terms i accepted - it's a basic tenet of UK law. See my detailed post for further information on this. I've emailed Mythic about this also. I understand it's not likely to be the Community Managers fault or responsibility and their power to affect things is minimal as the management obviously aren't listening to them.

What happens hear will likely depend on your CC provider and sadly your credit rating/service within that providers range. The better providers and the better the rating/service you have the more likely the CC provider will choose to reimburse you themselves and then chase the money up with GoA and complain to them.

Irrelevant as to the quality of the CC provides/credit rating. It's against basic UK law and rights that you CANNOT waive and that apply to all UK cards. I don't know or understand international law particuarly (i.e. other countries) but i DO know that case law in this area has determined that the rights of the individual lie with firmly with the country that the card was taken out in as it is the company's responsibility to ensure they comply with the legalities in each country they trade in (example - if i use my card in Lanzarote and get ripped off, it's based on UK law as to whether my card company can refund/reclaim)

ALL credit and debit card providers in the UK are required BY LAW to give you your money back and reclaim their lost cash from GoA. This is their job, not yours. Anyone tells you different on the CC/DC line you should ask to be referred up to their supervisor or higher as they're either lying or simply ignorant on the policy on this.

To the CMs:having read the e-mails people have gotten, this isn't just a PR disaster of epic proportions for GoA.

You realise that for a UK company, this is the kind of thing (a mass illegal transaction) that gets them blacklisted from major CC/DC providers? I suggest you make the bosses at GoA well aware that if enough people report these transactions as fraudulent this may happen.