I cant believe I just read what I read...

[Trem]

I don't think on the whole that is correct DaGaffer, they can come here for higher wages or just more benefits if they would rather be idle.

Why do the Polish come here to clean toilets or dig holes when most of them are skilled people?

 

[DaGaffer]

I don't think on the whole that is correct DaGaffer, they can come here for higher wages or just more benefits if they would rather be idle.

Why do the Polish come here to clean toilets or dig holes when most of them are skilled people?

The choice for most of Africans is come here and get some money, stay home and have no money at all. There are lots of places in Africa with unemployment rates of 90%+. It wouldn't take much of a local economic improvement to make people stay, because don't forget, while wages are low, the cost of living is too. Africans would prefer to stay in Africa, indeed, that's what happens; we moan about illegal immigrants, but the numbers are small compared to intra-African economic migration (e.g. Zimbabweans moving to South Africa, Liberians or Sengalese moving to Nigeria).

As for the Poles, the thing about skilled people coming here to clean toilets or dig holes is actually a myth; most Poles coming to the UK do the jobs they did back home, just for a lot more money. The reason they come to the UK (and Ireland) is simply because we're the only EU countries that allowed them in; most of them would prefer to work in Germany, and once Germany opens up (I think it has to do it by 2011) you'll see a shift in Polish work away from the UK and Ireland.

You have to differentiate between types of economic migration; lots of Africans and South and East Asians migrate to the West because they really have a choice between privation and indeed, starvation, and migration; the situation for the Poles is purely opportunistic; no Pole is under the threat of African type poverty (indeed they have strong social security), its purely because they'd be stupid not to work here.

 

[Chilly]

Dont underestimate the value of migrant workers. There are many, many jobs that pay badly and are shit, yet they do them where the majority of locals would turn up their well-educated noses (I would, why should a qualified programmer and unix-monkey have to scrub bogs when he can do all sorts of other useful things for a lot more money?). They fill an economic niche, and we benefit from that in both economic and cultural senses.

Just because a few of them end up on benefits and whatnot should not cloud your judgement: how many chavs sit around claiming dubious benefits when they are perfectly capable of doing pretty much anything they want? I'd bet a shitload more chavs than migrants, and furthermore I bet the economic value of migrants easily pays for all the lazy fuckers claiming benefits they do not deserve.

 

[throdgrain]

There are too many migrant workers though, I wish the vast majority of them would fuck off. Let them go improve thier own country, if Poland/India/where the fuck ever is as good as they say it is, then go there and stop tell me about it.

DaGaffer, I disagree with you, and the behaviour of vast numbers of the afore-mentioned Poles, Indians etc merely goes to reinforce what Im saying.

 

[DaGaffer]

DaGaffer, I disagree with you, and the behaviour of vast numbers of the afore-mentioned Poles, Indians etc merely goes to reinforce what Im saying.

What "behaviour"? Most Poles come here to work and they work fucking hard. They wouldn't be here if there wasn't work to do. As for Indians, well, as most are now second or third generation migrants and also generally known for working hard, particularly in their own businesses, I don't buy your argument. You may have a cultural problem with Indians etc. and well, that's a whole other issue, but all this "coming over here, scrounging off the state" stuff is largely bollocks. I'd have more sympathy for your view if it wasn't for the fact that the real scroungers and leeches on the economy are white and English.

 

[throdgrain]

Classic, play the "You may have a cultural problem with Indians etc" card

Silly bollocks, my sister in law is asian, I live in an area where there's actually more asians than white people. Its to be honest with you outrageous you should suggest that without even the slightest provocation, in fact its bloody cheap and not worth your usual well-thought-out ,if somewhat wordy, arguements.

The behaviour of which I speak, is the fact that they come here in droves You know. That behaviour .

edit, niether do I have a big issue with "scrouging off the state" stuff, though I know some people do. The issue that I have is that there are now so many people here, its actually changing our country. We concrete over vast swathes of our countryside to house people. Oh, and you can do the "people living longer/ on their own /whatever" arguement too, that is true, but so is housing immegrants. Christ people I work who are immegrants think we are too soft! When will everyone else realise that?

 

[DaGaffer]

Actually I think there's nothing wrong with having a "cultural" problem with immigrants; I think its perfectly reasonable to expect anyone who settles here to accept and conform with British culture.

You dismiss the whole single people living alone thing and blame paving over the countryside on immigrants, but its just a cheap scapegoat; how is a dozen Polish brickies living in one house causing greenfield house building? Most new immigrants live in urban areas anyway. Sure its putting a load on transport and other infrastructure, but since immigrants tend to be the only people who want to work in areas like public transport and healthcare, its swings and roundabouts anyway.

Yes, immigrants are changing the country, but they're part of a much wider societal change and nowhere near the most important part; self-centred, self-contained society is where you should be aiming your vitriol, but its not as easy or obvious as immigrants.

 

[pez]

It seemed like a perfectly reasonable statement to make, if you are happy with their economic contribution to the country, which as DaGaffer says you should be, then surely you take issue with their culture and the way it affects our society?


As for the other varied and interesting threads this topic has gone off in theres one i'd like to pick up on.

The UK is not as powerless as some of you are making out. We're a member of the G7, we have a place on the security council, the 4th/5th? largest economy in the world, London is the financial heart and busiest international airport in the world and aside from the President of the US i can't think of a head of State which has more political clout than the position of Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

Tony Blair, for all his flaws, showed us the potential of that position as an international statesmen and what he achieved on many global issues was pretty impressive, if he had only done more for his own country.

Basically I think the United Kingdom is one of the few countries left in the world that can truly lead and I think our ability to do that is running out but tis still there.

 

[pez]

Actually I think there's nothing wrong with having a "cultural" problem with immigrants; I think its perfectly reasonable to expect anyone who settles here to accept and conform with British culture.

You dismiss the whole single people living alone thing and blame paving over the countryside on immigrants, but its just a cheap scapegoat; how is a dozen Polish brickies living in one house causing greenfield house building? Most new immigrants live in urban areas anyway. Sure its putting a load on transport and other infrastructure, but since immigrants tend to be the only people who want to work in areas like public transport and healthcare, its swings and roundabouts anyway.

Yes, immigrants are changing the country, but they're part of a much wider societal change and nowhere near the most important part; self-centred, self-contained society is where you should be aiming your vitriol, but its not as easy or obvious as immigrants.

what is it, something like 1% of Londoners are Eastern European? Not exactly hordes is it?

 

[throdgrain]

Yes, immigrants are changing the country, but they're part of a much wider societal change and nowhere near the most important part; self-centred, self-contained society is where you should be aiming your vitriol, but its not as easy or obvious as immigrants.

I notice you havent answered anything else Ive said, in classic internet style, hence I drop from this conversation before it becomes irritating

 

[DaGaffer]

I notice you havent answered anything else Ive said, in classic internet style, hence I drop from this conversation before it becomes irritating

Er, I think I did. My first paragraph explained why I didn't think I was making a cheap shot, and my second and third argue why I think your concern about immigrants is misplaced.

 

[Chilly]

I think the culture mixing is fucking great. More good curry houses and noodle shops now than ever before. Not to mention the music, film and culture in general.

 

[pez]

I'm looking forward to a Polish restaurant opening near me, from what i have heard it sounds like pretty nice food, good hearty peasant type dishes with none of this fancy french or bistro crap.

 

[Opt1]

Provided immigrants are as accepting of our culture as we are of there's (apart from the shit bits, which we all hate), rather than segregating themselves like crazy, I'm happy. I don't like the fact that there is so much segregation.. it makes no sense to me and is only going to cause more problems at some point.

Then again, in some places there are some absolute degenerate, intolerant tossers, and I don't blame people one bit for wanting to stay away from them.

Apparently immigrants on the whole have been damn helpful for our economy.. I don't know anything about it mind. I think we should start kicking the chavs out, not them.

On the aid count, I don't think 'aid' is what we should be giving - it encourages dependency. What we need to help them establish is infrastructure so they can survive on their own.. unfortunately achieving something like that for themselves is hindered by the masses of debt they have and the muppets in control of the countries that just want to war over power and territory (who we keep selling weapons to), like in the Congo. It's tribal warfare with guns and vehicles =/

Tbh, it's easy for me to say "Wouldn't it be nice if we..", but at the end of the day, a real solution is not so simple and is going to take a long time to sort out.

Anyways, that's a little off topic - ignore meh.

 

[throdgrain]

Sorry, Ive got to return to this

I dont mind culture mixing, as you call it , to an extent, but this is Britain, and I want it to stay like that. The rubbish that lies around the streets where I live is amazing Its thrown by people who just arnt bothered, some of em white no doubt Dagaffer, but a lot of them by people who just arnt bothered, its not thier country, they dont care.

I do want our country to stay British. When I was 25, I didnt really care or think about it, or if I did perhaps I would argue from some pre-pc attitude.
Now I really see it differently. It actually makes me want to go somewhere else, where perhaps they actually beleive in thier country.

Lots and lots of British people are selling thier houses, getting thier bit of money and fucking off, on a bigger scale but very similar to how white people left inner London in the 70's. They are tolerent people, but they have had enough.

I begin to feel like that.

 

[pez]

I do find it quite ironically amusing that a lot of people get sick of immigration to their country so they emmigrate to another country xD


I bet the Spanish love us.

 

[DaGaffer]

Sorry, Ive got to return to this

I dont mind culture mixing, as you call it , to an extent, but this is Britain, and I want it to stay like that. The rubbish that lies around the streets where I live is amazing Its thrown by people who just arnt bothered, some of em white no doubt Dagaffer, but a lot of them by people who just arnt bothered, its not thier country, they dont care.

You see, this is what I'm talking about, you blame immigrants, I blame our own failure to communicate our values. Relating this back to the original topic, this is why I don't buy the idea of Britain somehow leading by example on climate change; we can't instil values at home, how the Hell do we expect to in China?

I do want our country to stay British. When I was 25, I didnt really care or think about it, or if I did perhaps I would argue from some pre-pc attitude.
Now I really see it differently. It actually makes me want to go somewhere else, where perhaps they actually beleive in thier country.

Lots and lots of British people are selling thier houses, getting thier bit of money and fucking off, on a bigger scale but very similar to how white people left inner London in the 70's. They are tolerent people, but they have had enough.

I begin to feel like that.

I feel the same way, but once again I don't blame the immigrants, I blame government and our own self-centredness (and I'm not being holier-than-thou, I recognise my own failings too).

 

[throdgrain]

I do find it quite ironically amusing that a lot of people get sick of immigration to their country so they emmigrate to another country xD


I bet the Spanish love us.

lmao I know that is bizzare aint it Its one of the things thats stopping me doing it.

 

[Opt1]

It's the chavs that'll force me out the country, I'll swap them for immigrants any day

 

[Delboy]

I do find it quite ironically amusing that a lot of people get sick of immigration to their country so they emmigrate to another country xD

Do you mean people with no money to support themselves?

 

[Delboy]

And go watch An Inconvenient Truth..

I appreciate the film and the people for promoting it worldwide to encourage folk to be more aware of the impact they have on their environment. I'd say governments already have firm views on this, but has a certain priority below many other things going on.

As for the films' scientific value, I'm not interested.