Hunters and Malice axe.

[Puppet]

Nope it's you that is wrong, Wyrd spec does not apply to 2h. Tests published on VN highlighted that once 51 composite spec for a 2h was achieved then WS did not affect defence penetration. One of the Grab bag said that WS was a meaningless number. Going above 51 decreases damage variance as does more dex/str depending on your weapon.

Im sorry, you're wrong. For DAMAGE, Wyrd doesnt apply to 2H, because of the 2H bonus u get per speccing points. However, Wyrd STILL does apply for the defense penetration part on 2H.

This however is all irrelevant: Higher INTRINSIC weaponskill (as in, having more WS with the same weaponstat and weaponspec) means AND more damage AND better defense-penetration. Its to compare a Warrior with a Thane, A paladin with an armsman, a champion with a hero. The pure tanks have higher WS (with the same weaponspec and weaponstat) and thus do have better damage and defense-penetration.

Spear-hunters (not Sword-spec) have an intrinsic higher WS-boost, to accentuate their higher affinity with melee. They been given that eons ago.

The real funny part is that you quickly dismiss all love given to your class, because 'it didnt do squad in a specific fight', and are misinformed about game-mechanics in general.

If WS was all that useless, then mercs and infiltrators would do equal damage on equal styles, if they where specced equally in their melee-lines. You're mxing up real WS and Displayed WS.

 

[bigchief]

Umm over the thread the context of what I wrote is shifting.

blah blah blah

I read every post. The ones that made me laugh because they were so biased and full of shit were the ones written by you. Hence I replied specifially to one of your posts taking an argument along the same levels of your own pointing out the flaws in your comments.

If you don't like it, don't post. I'm well aware of what the thread is about, your argument was crap, given the discussion you're having with puppet you also don't seem to understand how the game works :E

 

[bigchief]

o and if were going to whine about lack of access to certain artis

I'd quite like sok on my inf please

malice in a thrust version for my scout

malice for my sorc for when its meleeing (rox!)

I think pup would like malice for his VW too

o and his vamp prolly.

You get the idea ...

 

[Basic_X]

Here we go...

Yes. and im aware of that. but all i wanted was a discussion of what the comunity thinks of it (if Mythic wanted to change it they should have done it by now annyway. at least when they "fixed" the last hunter issuses)

but alot of interessing views here. exatly what i wanted

 

[Xajorkith]

Nope it's you that is wrong, Wyrd spec does not apply to 2h. Tests published on VN highlighted that once 51 composite spec for a 2h was achieved then WS did not affect defence penetration. One of the Grab bag said that WS was a meaningless number. Going above 51 decreases damage variance as does more dex/str depending on your weapon.

and are misinformed about game-mechanics in general.

given the discussion you're having with puppet you also don't seem to understand how the game works :E

Well let's see who is correct:
http://vnboards.ign.com/Message.aspx?topic=97302506&brd=20912&start=97303436

 

[Corran]

Well let's see who is correct:
http://vnboards.ign.com/Message.aspx?topic=97302506&brd=20912&start=97303436

And you would believe anything said to you on VN boards, i pity you

 

[Shike]

wouldnt mind if hunters had malice really but, those who claim hunters are so gimp etc should really just learn to play better, are some hunters out there that are seriosly nasty to deal with and are accknowledged to be quite fearsome aswell. Malice in their hands would just mean either arrogance or PHN or WH or SoM or stuff combined, making the good hunters pretty annoying to deal with but I dont really care, perhaps remove PHN if hunters get arrogance, since they already have WH aswell. PHN is fked up

regarding the WSdiscussion, wyrd only apply on secondary advanced lines, such as DW/CD/Poles/2h etc since its the hidden advanced WS that is used. Not on pure lines like spear/LW/Sword etc. LA is its own world and I never really understood how it works

Dont trust VN is my advice, so much BS is posted there it would make babyjesus cry in his crib.

Can also say that, give PHN to all stealthers, and not just midstealthers, that arti if anything is fked up. Or just nerf the charge to hell and back. There are stuff that is diff in all realms yada yada..

 

[Puppet]

Well let's see who is correct:
http://vnboards.ign.com/Message.aspx?topic=97302506&brd=20912&start=97303436

You still dont get it, do you. The point initially I made was that hunters have a higher WS then any other rogue:

Example:
Infiltrator has 50+0 thrust, 320 STR and 380 DEX (avg. 350 weaponstat) has X as Weaponskill
Ranger has 50+0 pierce, 320 STR and 380 DEX (avg. 350 weaponstat) has X as Weaponskill
NS has 50+0 pierce, 320 STR and 380 DEX (avg. 350 weaponstat) has X as weaponskill
SB has 50+0 sword, 350 STR (avg. 350 weaponstat) has X as weaponskill

Hunter has 50+0 Spear, 320 STR and 380 DEX (avg. 350 weaponstat) has X + Y weaponskill with Y as a positive number.

This has *nothing* to do with Wyrd. Its comparable to how a Paladin has a lower WS then an Armsman, even if they have the same STR and 2H skill.


Read: http://support.darkageofcamelot.com/kb/article.php?id=569

HUNTER CHANGES

We've decided to make Hunters more effective in Melee combat. These changes will help them greatly in both PvE as well as RvR:

- All Hunter melee skills base damages have been increased "behind the scenes". The specific melee skills involved are sword and spear. Hunters will now notice that they do more damage every time they attack an opponent with these weapon types. Hunters now do more base damage than the other two Archer classes, and will not need to do anything to take advantage of this change - it will happen automatically every time they hit with a weapon.

Same patch 1.56 where Warriors also got increased weaponskill:

WARRIOR CHANGE

In order to make the Warrior more of a melee damage-dealer, we've increased his weapon skills (again, behind the scenes, as with the Hunter) so that he will do more damage every time he hits with an Axe, Hammer, or Sword (both 1 and 2h). With this change, the Warrior now does more base damage than any other class in the game. Warriors don't need to do anything to take advantage of this change - it will happen automatically every time they hit with a weapon.

 

[Xajorkith]

We are talking DEFENCE PENETRATION, don't switch it around to damage, I'm well aware that Intrincic (as you call it) WS changes damage, I’m well aware displayed WS is a bogus number, I’m well aware hunters Eons ago got weapon boosted…. The Point is on defence penetration….. The Mythic quotes above... funny how both didn't stay anything about actually being able to hit our target better, that's beacuse higher WS doesnt increase chance to hit...you said it did, you are wrong.

...aswell as intrinsic higher WS.

... A hunter with 39+11 spear has exactly the same chance of hitting a level 7 evade Infil as someone with 50 +18 spear.... OK damage may vary but if you can't hit your target it's irrelevant.

Once again your misinformed. You're talking about Wyrd-spec, and inherent higher WS. Ask a Thane and a Warrior about penetrating defenses, and damage. That comes from 1 thing: Weaponskill-difference.

Nope it's you that is wrong, Wyrd spec does not apply to 2h. Tests published on VN highlighted that once 51 composite spec for a 2h was achieved then WS did not affect defence penetration.

Im sorry, you're wrong. For DAMAGE, Wyrd doesnt apply to 2H, because of the 2H bonus u get per speccing points. However, Wyrd STILL does apply for the defense penetration part on 2H.

 

[noblok]

An attempt at clarification.

Im sorry, you're wrong. For DAMAGE, Wyrd doesnt apply to 2H, because of the 2H bonus u get per speccing points. However, Wyrd STILL does apply for the defense penetration part on 2H.

Which is exactly what got confirmed in that VN thread Xajorkith linked to. To me it seems like you both agree on this one.

Nope it's you that is wrong, Wyrd spec does not apply to 2h. Tests published on VN highlighted that once 51 composite spec for a 2h was achieved then WS did not affect defence penetration.

This is not what Puppet is talking about. Here's what he says:

Premise 1: A hunter has higher weaponskill than a ranger with the same weaponspec (intrinsic weaponskill).
Premise 2: More weaponskill means you (a) do better damage and (b) are better at penetrating defenses.
Conclusion: A hunter is better at penetrating defenses than a ranger.
Analogy : Thane (lower intrinsic WS) versus warrior (higher intrinsic WS).

 

[Tir]

Should hunters have malice...I don't know. Would I use a slash weapon and hope for a proc, not sure, however, I do think the effects of malice need a long hard look and preferably to be hit with a nerf bat.

Now, my hunter does need a new template quite badly atm, but it still doesn't change the basic problem that hunters have in that they are ruled by the random number generater, much more so than assassins and rangers due to weidling a 2 hander v's high evade, and every tweak is to try and improve the odds of that not wftpwning us.

The problem with malice is it can't be fought, and it's proc rate is very, very high. Coupled with other changes it's become a nightmare for my hunter. On it's own it wasn't so much of a problem, with str/con debuffs using a spear it was a bit of an issue. With str/ws debuffing it's the devil.

Ok, the hunter is a difficult class to balance, it hits bloody hard sometimes, if it finds the hole in damage type in your scing it hits even harder. But they need to hit in the first place. Doesn't matter how much damage mitigation I have up if I am not dishing any out. Maliced and str/ws debuffed, displayed ws drops to below unbuffed values...try hitting an evade 7 toon with no buffs and slow 2 hander, then take a look at the damage difference. And like all the archers to some degree they are really not very good at low rr, but again very difficult to make it competitive at low rr without making it a monster at high rr.

However, like I said, it's not just hunters that have issues with malice, I bet every person has stories of purging a whole load of negative crap, then getting maliced again straight after the purge. I highly doubt they will actually do anything to change it, but in my mind the best solution is to either 1, reduce it's effectiveness, 2, give it an immunity timer or 3, make it a /use on a 3-5 min timer.

And after that give my damed hunter some consistancy!

 

[Chimaira]

Always wondered myself why Hunters do like 125 damage with their bow when I played merc. where as you tried vs scouts they easily pumped you with 600+ if not muuch more depending on RR

Gustav maybe hes melee spec but when I was soloing and he shoots me for less than he melees for low 100s I was wondering if they dont need a bow improvement rather than melee

 

[Shike]

Always wondered myself why Hunters do like 125 damage with their bow when I played merc. where as you tried vs scouts they easily pumped you with 600+ if not muuch more depending on RR

Gustav maybe hes melee spec but when I was soloing and he shoots me for less than he melees for low 100s I was wondering if they dont need a bow improvement rather than melee

hunters tend to specc more melee than bow, while scouts specc bow since their melee is pretty crap

id say give scouts parry as option to specc and perhaps we would see a few more meleescouts out there.