How to make RvR balanced?

[Zede]

No - I knew none of Albion Prywden what so ever. But it was not like Albion on Prywden was the only server which ever existed and only realm which ever ran FGs. Now who's the ignorant or clueless.... you perhaps?

ownedbycronictank.com

:kissit:

 

[MagrothJ]

And people like yourself whined about the imaginary fg monopoly with no real grip on reality. HOW did they actually stop you doing anything? they didnt and couldnt regardless how much the vocal minority complained, the likes of Ardamel, Outlaw and co prooved this fact in the mile gate standoffs.
If they were abusive towards you, you report them and they get suspended

If you didn't want to get steamrolled you didnt go where the set grps ran, but ofc the people who did so didnt get noticed because they were happy playing rather than complaining. But the fact of the matter was that where the fg's were you were garunteed to find people to fight
Equally most full groups realised they could use IRC to coordinate zones for the day and moved accordingly, again didnt appear on the forums because they were happy playing (usually in hadrians) rather than complaining
The funny thing is, most of these people didnt even read FH past raid organisation

This completely ignoring the benefit of set grps, who do you think organised Dragon/TG raids back in the day?
Hell who do you think started the permanent lair grps helping an endless stream of people to level?
Or the large army events you liked, again organised grps..
What you fail to see is that these grps often were the core of bigger events when they werent in "fg vs fg" because they were better organised and easier to keep under control as they actually did what they were asked.

Sorry if you disagree but in my experience the whines were from the FG crowd. If you were running around in a RvR zone and found which you joined in on you were almost guaranteed to get a tell along the lines of "wtf! why did you add????". That's not cool at all.

I fail to see however what they did besides running FGs have to do with this discussion. Does that give them the right to make the game whatever they like with noone else having a say?

 

[Stallion]

FG rvr in war is kind of silly, zones are so badly designed there is usually just 1 route you can take, one exception is Chaos Wastes.

That is a big problem compared to daoc where you had several routes you could take and lots of places to hide around at, currently, engaging a war band with a full group is almost always a head on engagement, and with the lack of any long duration cc, insta cast spells from x amount of bw's/sorcs just makes it unhealable.

Yes, war is everywhere, in daoc it was somewhere and you could in most cases plan an engagement in your favour, war lacks this and a system with force multipliers like mezz and roots, making any headless play viable.

 

[Stallion]

doh edit timer,

On topic i think defending keeps will become easier as people get used to the tactics, a handful of the right people can hold a fort against vastly superior numbers if they want to

What i do feel is missing though is arena's for the set grps to fight it out,
then there is no excuses of being "zerged" if they want to fight against set grps then they can everyone else can do open warfare/scenarios
Also there are no real penalty for dying, you just release and return
dry rince repeat
This is great for scenarios but it shouldnt be the case in real open rvr to be honest, take praag for example you can just throw yourself at the enemy again and again making it a pretty mundane affair

However regarding scenarios, it is simply impractical to do normal pve as you will miss out on the RR from pvp
There should be significant boosts to xp/drops in pve to make it worth doing

Truth be told i guess my post is a little bitter, this is the 3rd mmo where i got bored within the first month of subscription (age of conan and archlord being the others)

Full groups dont want arena's, the other night, basicly our last attempt before "giving up" until some changes are implemented, 2 group had organized to fight in KAdrin Valley zone, unfortunately as we came, there was no roaming involved, as the zone is designed, head on engagement was the only way.. it did not like anything like rvr, depending on who won, the group who won would stay at initial engagement spot and wait for the other group to repop.. Static boring, and even with pre-planted standards in the ground, feelt more like rp farming then actuall rvr.

We even took turns with the destro group to fight the order group, all in the same place, took 2 turns and then we left. static and boring, no room for excitement.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

I can't speak for other servers, but I loved that on Prydwen we had a pretty good community where there were a large amount of people that could cooperate well. I don't have rose tinted glasses - I know that on many occasions there were difficulties for different parts of the communites when it came to trying to sort out realm-wide goals.

Instead of raging against the perceived elitism of the guilds that were focused on group-based combat I loved that these guys were around. Although I mainly concerned myself with the less hardcore players I remember getting great cooperation from the likes of Everlast and Public Enemy to name but two (there were lots of others but these two stood out for reasons nothing to do with this thread). While there were of course many highly strung and arguably more difficult to deal with people in the FG-based guilds when it came down to it these types of guys were the cornerstone of some of the sneakier, best and most effective relic raids. I don't mean alarm clock style. I mean the kind of style were proper strategy and tactics were employed. Take an army to target X, while you've got your crack teams taking out target Y and while all thats going on stealth team gets to work and lays the groundwork on a relic keep. The FG-based guilds were always the best relic carriers and anyone who was organising a relic raid and didn't acknowledge that was quite frankly not suited for the task. (When these guilds could be cajoled into doing it - it wasn't perfect).

It took cohesion between different parts of the community to make things like that happen and it didn't happen all the time, or even all that often.
But when it did happen it was a joy to see.

Rambling a bit, but the point is this:

There was room in DAoC for several types of PvP/RvR play and while not without its flaws its was pretty darned good at it...

...at the time. That time is no more. Player expectations and available technologies have moved on a long way from DAoC. A lot of the people crying for the rose tinted days of glorious DAoC I notice aren't reactivating their accounts and playing it.

Warhammer has a lot of the best bits of DAoC with some of the more streamlined mechanics borne of experience. Its far from perfect. I've got one of the most broken classes in the game in my sig and I think whoever wrote the clunky client should be shot. Its still enjoyable.

I don't want WAR to be DAoC or even DAoC 2. I want it to be its own game, I'm happy to leave DAoC in the past with some great memories of times shared with some great people. WAR will bring out its own heroes and villians in time. People complaining about the community forget that this game is in its infancy, the DAoC community developed over years. It was several months before the community started to gel in any kind of meaningful way (on Prydwen anyway).
Warhammer has only been out for what...2 months now?

Just to bring us screeching back on topic:

This game hasn't matured yet. It will be quite some time yet before T4 RvR is properly balanced. We're only just starting to get the bulk of the population into T4 and many of them are not even cap level yet. When 90% of the T4 population are at cap level then you can start to get some meaningful stats off the results of fights.

As such at this stage I believe any balancing can only be to reduce wildly over- or under-powered classes and to fix noticable issues with the WAR world itself which affect battles. Going by observations in other games, fine tuning won't be until 6 months to a year.

 

[Chronictank]

Full groups dont want arena's, the other night, basicly our last attempt before "giving up" until some changes are implemented, 2 group had organized to fight in KAdrin Valley zone, unfortunately as we came, there was no roaming involved, as the zone is designed, head on engagement was the only way.. it did not like anything like rvr, depending on who won, the group who won would stay at initial engagement spot and wait for the other group to repop.. Static boring, and even with pre-planted standards in the ground, feelt more like rp farming then actuall rvr.

We even took turns with the destro group to fight the order group, all in the same place, took 2 turns and then we left. static and boring, no room for excitement.

Point is however the option would exist, if arena's existed they have 0 right to whine if they get added on
Its as simple as that
If you want a fg vs fg encounter you queue up and fight it out in a mini zone, add free and play the game you want to play
If you want a more open system then you go to main rvr and dont complain if you get steamrolled

I completely agree with you though, the spawns are far too close together (part of no penalty for death, in daoc if you died you had to run back which was a discouragement in itself) this was brought up many times in the beta and ignored. I suspect because it means a set grp cant dominate a zone, it is not lack of CC that stops a group from doing well its the speed at which reinforcements arrive causing them to be overwhelmed

@MagrothJ
Sorry you had a bad experience but i have tried both sides of the fence and i can tell you the ones who complained were usually the same people who ran in emain over and over again. Ofc there were others who did the same but they accepted that if you want to run in a congested location you are likely to be overun, for some people that was the fun of it.
I had great fun in places such as odins and hadrians dependant where the pvp was, relatively add free (there were always people who followed full groups around with the purpose of "adding", no doubt this was where the phrase was coined from). But when we wanted some more general fun we went to emain and joined in the mass battles

 

[Dre@d]

Yep game its new but... i dont see any room for other playstyle in ORVR that isnt zerg here and zerg there, if u split for some strategy u get zerged, cant outheal the amount of dmg u take most of the times, and tbh, in daoc u had room for lots of playstyles and it was funny, it would been even better if it wasnt for the attitude of some dudes ( in all sides, in the zerg side,the 8vs8 side, solo side etc etc ), sometimes it missed the mutual respect for other playstyles but it was playable for everyone, here in WAR, u can only zerg, zerg and zerg, hell i tried to solo in ORVR ( not scenarios ) and i've been called leeching scum xD i mean , wtf, and ofc, triying to solo in ORVR is suicide except if u try to catch some dude a bit in the back of the zerg, but playing as a grp of 6 in ORVR is a joke, i dont think u can really kill more than a grp, maybe 2 really bad pugs, but that is, im ofc not a hardcore player, i play with some friends to have some fun, but going ORVR, and seeing the same all the time, 2 WB of destru attacking somewhere, 2 order wb going there, 2wb bla bla bla, some days its pretty fun ofc, but zerging gets boring ( at least for some of us ) pretty quick, in daoc u could b part of the zerg, 8vs8, small grp, solo, but here... zerg or dont go orvr, hope it changes soon a bit to leave some room for more playstyles.

Pd. soz for bad english