How powerful is "see hidden"? Who gets it, and when?

[Bedroc the Hero]

Could someone please give some info on this "see hidden" ability I read about here? With a newly started NS i get nervous

Who gets it?
When and how do you get it?
How powerful is it?

Thank you all! sorry to bother if this information is easy to come by somewhere. I havent found it.

 

[ImLestat]

http://support.darkageofcamelot.com/cgi-bin/support.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_sid=SLOMgYjg&p_lva=&p_refno=020701-000001&p_created=1025534211&p_sp=cF9ncmlkc29ydD0mcF9yb3dfY250PTYzJnBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9UmVhbG0gQWJpbGl0aWVzJnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9MyZwX2NhdF9sdmwxPX5hbnl_JnBfY2F0X2x2bDI9fmFueX4mcF9zb3J0X2J5PWRmbHQmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=

 

[SFXman]

1. Assassins.
2. Assassins get it in the next patch, 1.50 which is already on Gorre. You get it by purchasing it with points received from realm rank levels. RR10 will give you 100 points... RR1L2 will be 2 points etc. It will cost 8 points as far as I know meaning RR1L8 which is when you are kicked out of Caledonia (thank god the BG's are saved from its wrath.
3. It is very powerful, being a passive skill = always on. Shows any stealthed mins/archer from a mile away.

 

[old.Sami]

Or.. do you mean the detect hidden ability which you get at stealth 16?? I just rolled myself a shade too and would like to hear this too.. what does the ability do?

 

[old.Sami]

Originally posted by SFXman
3. It is very powerful, being a passive skill = always on. Shows any stealthed mins/archer from a mile away.

Doesn't the "camoflage" ability keep at least rangers hidden even when someone is trying to look for him with see hidden? This is 1.52 patch tho..I think.

 

[SFXman]

Originally posted by old.Sami
Or.. do you mean the detect hidden ability which you get at stealth 16?? I just rolled myself a shade too and would like to hear this too.. what does the ability do?

Apparently detect hidden just doubles the range you can see stealthed archers/mintrels from. So an assassin a L24 with L24 stealth will see an archer L24 with L24 stealth from twice as far... so basically the archer won't see it coming while the assassin can easily see him from twice as far (usually an archer will only see an assassin from very close though... with a not that high stealth).
I think kr0n said it better in the Minstrel spec thread:
It doubles the bubble basically.
Lets say L24 archer with 24 stealth and L24 assassin with 24 stealth meet, assassin sees the archer 2x that far away when the archer sees the assassin. (basically you see the assassin when he stands infront of ya but anyways )

Originally posted by old.Sami
Doesn't the "camoflage" ability keep at least rangers hidden even when someone is trying to look for him with see hidden? This is 1.52 patch tho..I think.

Yes, but this can only be performed 10 minutes (if I remember correctly) after the last battle... and you can't do anything while in camouflage except move.

 

[old.tRoG]

Originally posted by old.Sami


Doesn't the "camoflage" ability keep at least rangers hidden even when someone is trying to look for him with see hidden? This is 1.52 patch tho..I think.

yes, archers get camoflage ability in 1.52, but that is only for scouting as i think the timer is 10mins after your last combat.

so if you wanna actually kill something you are still at the mercy of see hidden assasins

[EDIT: Doh, SFX posted while i was typing this msg ]

 

[old.LandShark]

Originally posted by SFXman
Apparently detect hidden just doubles the range you can see stealthed archers/mintrels from.

X = Guy trying to detect a stealthed assassin/minstrel/archer
Y = stealthed guy
Z = assassin with the detect hidden ability from stealth spec

Range in which Y can be detected by X
= [(Y's stealth spec - X's level) * 20]+125

Range in which Y can be detected by Z
= [(Y's stealth spec - X's level) * 50]+125

Range in which lvl50 Y can be detected by lvl 5 Assassin with see hidden RA
= as far away as the engine draws other players.

Detect hidden skill can be negated by the minstrel/archer have 50 stealth spec, whereas see hidden enables lvl5's to ignore the minstrel/archer's stealth spec, even if it is 50.

 

[old.Eeek]

I believe See Hidden is max view range, ie any time someone enters your field of view even as a spec in the far distance. The other problem is that when you are 'seen' in stealth you momentarily pop into full view (fixed later patch). Therefore any assassin with this skill can (if looking) see any non assassin anywhere.
In the US there was (still is?) a problem (for archers anyway) with low level assassins R1L8 buying this skill and being put in high level groups which then purely went on archer hunts, hence alot of them quit the game.

 

[Tesla Monkor]

Detect Hidden puts the 'View bubble' of the assassin on 3000. That is clipping range (and just beyond, actually). Stealther archers are visible beyond the visible range of assassins. Whee.

Read the Hunter FAQ on ign.com -- stealth is explained there very well.

 

[wolvon fury]

I know meaning RR1L8 which is when you are kicked out of Caledonia

Ummm, am a R1L7 with my alt on mlf, He only has 3000rps, and the limit is 7200rps in caledonia

 

[Flimgoblin]

RR1L8 is before you get kicked out of Caledonia - think its when you ding RR2 that you get booted.

What See Hidden should do:
Lets assassins see non-assassin stealthers in 'see-through' mode from far away. (i.e. not fully visible)

There's the 'pop' bug which makes it go "totally invis"->"completely visible"->"see through" which makes this skill far too silly...

Even when they've fixed that bug it's still a big nerf to snipers, but since yer meant to be archers and not 'invisible death from range'...

The scouting thing that stealth let you do comes back in 1.52 with camouflague which lets you avoid 'see hidden' as long as you've been out of combat for ten minutes.

Basically Mythic have turned around and said (with their actions, not with their words):
Archers and Minstrels don't stealth, they hide. If you want to go invis in the middle of an open field and not be found out by assassins, play an assassin. Once every so often the archers can go properly invis, but you're not going to be skewering greys whilst yer doing it.

Whether you agree or not with this is upto you...

Suggestion number one is to find trees to hide behind whilst stealthed... archers don't need to be in the middle of the road to get their target, they can happily snipe from the bushes...

 

[old.Tohtori]

All i gotta sya is, a friend in the US server told me that hunters are a dying breed.

The see hidden was bad enough, but the camouflage that was supposed to "balance" it all didn't do much. Ofcourse you can stay hidden with it but try surviving 10 mins after an attack to cast it again

Seems like the über classes are dying away, hmm, perhaps the legend of balanced battle is coming...oh and i know midgard hammer fetish will die soon.

 

[Tesla Monkor]

Camouflage is great for archers -- but it's screwed up for hunters using pets. When your pet is hit, you automatically drop out of camouflage, so it's not that great. (Or another reason not to use BC).

 

[Flimgoblin]

Apparently a lot of archers have respecced to remove most or all of their stealth... second-line archers.. following armies and lobbing volleys of arrows.

Archers were never intended to be snipers... however Mythic left that ability in for far too long, so a lot of people got attached to their sniping

Archers are now as good in RvR as they are bad in PvE..
(not as bad as people _think_ they are in PvE... scouts/infils are actually very good in groups when played properly, however they have attracted a large number of glory-seekers who give the good scout/infil players a bad rep)

i.e. they're pretty good in RvR, and they're not quite wonderful in PvE... (mainly due to people thinking they're crap and not wanting them in a group.... might not be so bad if 50% of the population at lvl 20 these days are rogues... well it seems that way to me when I'm trying to find a tank for my wizard to hide behind)

 

[SFXman]

In the US there was (still is?) a problem (for archers anyway) with low level assassins R1L8 buying this skill and being put in high level groups which then purely went on archer hunts, hence alot of them quit the game.

This is the kind of shit I fear will happen and thus the great anger (also the fact that assassins whoop us even worse) I have towards the realm ability in question. Exploitation if you ask me, yes... I'd go that far.

Suggestion number one is to find trees to hide behind whilst stealthed... archers don't need to be in the middle of the road to get their target, they can happily snipe from the bushes...

This is the only bright side I see in this... that I can still "hide" around trees and such, wearing clothes of a color that blend in with the environment I most spend time in. This just reminded that all is not lost...

Apparently a lot of archers have respecced to remove most or all of their stealth... second-line archers.. following armies and lobbing volleys of arrows.

This just gave me an idea which I have in a sense thought about before but I think I will indeed do this... I will just follow some groups of "regular RvR'ers" (non-stealthing) and stay back with casters and shoot everything that moves (naturally the weakest first, like in the good ol' times)...
Stealth? Pfft...

 

[Gef]

Your all missing one major aspect of all this, TRUE SIGHT. Okay so its on a 30 min timer, but this is effectively a free assasin kill every 30 mins. The number of times I see a friend nearby park it at the hands of an assasin while sitting is daft.

Archers who use this skill wisely will be the bane of Assasins. Forcing them too to hunt with groups. With the advent of camoflage we we will be the only class who can remain hidden AND still see all other stealthers.

When I RvR (usually with a guild group) I scout for enemy teams, usually near the MG's. I rarely am 100% solo, i'm an opportunist, if I see an easy target I take it then run.

Until camoflage comes in i'm going to be a bit stuck with my normal style of play, but you can bet your ass next time someone yells 'stealther nearby!' they wont live long.

 

[Tesla Monkor]

Have you tried hitting an assassin who has Evade 7 and Dodger 5 (Several will spend this much on guaranteeing a 50% evade rate)?

True Sight is nice, but while you gank one assassin (Assuming you can actually hit the bastard), you'll get to play RP dispenser for the next half hour.

The ability costs 10 points. That's quite expensive for something like that. True Sight is Mythic's attempt to 'balance' the stealthers after adding See Hidden. They didn't add Camouflage without a reason two patches later.

Yeah, I whine, and I rant. Wouldn't you when your class looses an entire specline?

Ps. You're assuming that it'll not be you the assassin goes for.. True Sight is of little use to you when you're dead.

 

[Brannor McThife]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you respec to 1 stealth, won't that leave you moving at slower than walking speed? Then you are just looking to die even faster. It will also allow normal classes to see you way too easily.

Not only that, but at 1 stealth, hell, you'd save me having to buy See Hidden with realm points as you can see someone with 1 stealth 40 paces away (if you're an assassin with detect hidden).

One possible solution would be for this See Hidden to be active only when stationary. As soon as you start moving again, you have to rely on your Detect Hidden until you stand still for 5/10 seconds again.

<shrugs>

I do pity hunters/rangers/scouts, but I've pitied the masses of people dropped by them in 1-shot or 2, and then watched them stealth and escape without any problem, far longer.

-G

 

[Gef]

Originally posted by Tesla Monkor
Have you tried hitting an assassin who has Evade 7 and Dodger 5 (Several will spend this much on guaranteeing a 50% evade rate)?

True Sight is nice, but while you gank one assassin (Assuming you can actually hit the bastard), you'll get to play RP dispenser for the next half hour.

Evade 7?? I know they can spend the extra 14 points and get Dodger 5 but thats only a 15% boost. I'll probably do the same myself.

I'm not talking about soloing now though, i'm talking about general hunting. With the classic Alb zerg, if he evades I can at least uncover him and let the rest go ganking.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by Tesla Monkor
Camouflage is great for archers -- but it's screwed up for hunters using pets. When your pet is hit, you automatically drop out of camouflage, so it's not that great. (Or another reason not to use BC).

Hunters have issues their pets just act as a beacon
And they're balanced under the assumption they have a pet with them... not good...

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by Gef


Evade 7?? I know they can spend the extra 14 points and get Dodger 5 but thats only a 15% boost. I'll probably do the same myself.

14 points?

1+3+6+10+14=34 points you mean

The realm ability costs add up

 

[Gef]

Originally posted by Fingoniel


14 points?

1+3+6+10+14=34 points you mean

The realm ability costs add up

Doh! Didnt realise that

 

[SFXman]

Originally posted by Brannor McThife
One possible solution would be for this See Hidden to be active only when stationary. As soon as you start moving again, you have to rely on your Detect Hidden until you stand still for 5/10 seconds again.

Actually, this is an absolutely wonderful idea which I would dearly hope someone shows to Mythic. At least something in this direction... maybe 5 seconds of see hidden when you begin moving and then it would disappear. MOST likely this is enough to be able to spot them with regular detect hidden afterwards...
About the taking stealth to 1... well... I was thinking of not using it at all even, after reconsidering I was thinking of a max of 30 perhaps

 

[Danya]

I'm considering a respec to 50 instruments, 39 thrust and 18 stealth, then just use pets the whole time. That or just beat my drum and slide into utter boredom.

 

[1234Taz]

I plyd on US server with See Hidden and it get rid of gay 1 man killing machine snipers how can pick any fight they want then kill the target run off and restealth which is way overpowering. Reason Mythic added camo was because on VN Boards when 1.50 came out all archers moaned that they didnt use stealth to be killing machines, but to scout for their realm yer right . Most archer that stuck with it on US server did fine once they got over the fact they had to get groups to RvR like everyone else. Yes it real bad for Archers that want to solo in RvR but archer that group with other ppl wont be botherd.


Dont worry though Assasins get a nerf with 1shot-kill and stay stealthed is taken out.


Bring on 1.50

 

[old.Jeriraa]

1 man killing machines??? ROFL! Play a hunter and wake up!

Remain stealthed gets fixed??? ROFL! Play an Infiltrator and get 'Vanish'!

 

[1234Taz]

You wake up Vanish is once every 30min not anytime i wanna PA a green or blue con caster for 600+ dmg.


As for archers, say my RM see a group of 20 albs I see a green con(at lvl 50 worth around 200rps) and i want to kill it I run up QC nuke then nuke again and hope the green con dies then the 19 left runs after me and i get killed.

Now im a hunter I sneak up get max distance load up crit shot the green, say its got pbt miss shot him again 2 more time quite easy hit my 195% spd buff + sprint run of and stealth, then walk away and do it again and again.

Maybe if you was lvl 50 and not LVL 40 trying to solo red cons it would be differnt.

And ive plyd a hunter to high lvl so i know how good they are untill 1.50 comes that is .

 

[old.Jeriraa]

Oh you were talking about green cons... everybody can 1-hit green cons so why would a hunter be overpowered if being able to do so?

 

[SFXman]

Originally posted by 1234Taz
Most archer that stuck with it on US server did fine once they got over the fact they had to get groups to RvR like everyone else.

Yeah well, EXCEPT the f*cking assassins who are being boosted by the patch. They will most certainly solo after 1.50 and they might maybe have to group when the remain-stealthed-after-one-shot is fixed... I say MAYBE because they will still have easy targets going around alone everywhere and they will be able to run away quickly even if they get uncovered...

See that is the thing I don't understand. Assassins are already by far the best RP gaining individuals if played on a well-populated server and now they are given a few more RP
Time to level my friar until assassins get nerfed back to hell.