luribeauty
Fledgling Freddie
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 383
I've copied this from the warhammer forums since i doubt everyone reads there and it looked a good poll.poll is about war before anyone asks.
How long should it take to get to endgame level in terms of hours played?
- Thread starter luribeauty
- Start date
for me about 8 days /played, which is about 5 to 6 months playing casually, if the levelling is as enjoyable as the 1st daoc toon.
but they need to make a way to level 2nd , 3rd etc in about a day /played, pve gets dull fast once youve seen it once.
but they need to make a way to level 2nd , 3rd etc in about a day /played, pve gets dull fast once youve seen it once.
old.Whoodoo
Can't get enough of FH
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2003
- Messages
- 3,646
Should there be an "end game" to MMOs? If so, what is it?
WOW is so different to DAoC, it has a completely different set of rules, as do all MMOs.
In DAoC, there is PvE that doesnt really have an endgame at all, getting to 50 is just a small part, you then have templates, master levels, realm abilities, items to farm, cash to earn, crafting, questing...the list is never ending as it should be.
Then theres PvP, getting to RRXX, spending points along the way, changing playstyles, going solo or grouped, redoing templates to suit new abilites or changes of playstyle, again the list is endless.
Now you have the sociable side, you join a guild, make friends, move on, make more friends. When you do, you tend to bend towards teamwork, rather than thinking "I want gimme gimme gimme", you spend hours helping your mates doing other things.
To put an "end" on this genre of game is wrong, else we would all play up to xx hours and leave, but we dont, we find new ways our toons can entertain us. The only end is when you give up on the three things MMOs are designed for; fun, grind and sociability.
And for an old school player to think 20+days is too long to 50, thats daft, the average before all the easy mode leveling used to be 20-30 days /played. But this was over a year, and used to be acceptable until people got lazy.
WOW is so different to DAoC, it has a completely different set of rules, as do all MMOs.
In DAoC, there is PvE that doesnt really have an endgame at all, getting to 50 is just a small part, you then have templates, master levels, realm abilities, items to farm, cash to earn, crafting, questing...the list is never ending as it should be.
Then theres PvP, getting to RRXX, spending points along the way, changing playstyles, going solo or grouped, redoing templates to suit new abilites or changes of playstyle, again the list is endless.
Now you have the sociable side, you join a guild, make friends, move on, make more friends. When you do, you tend to bend towards teamwork, rather than thinking "I want gimme gimme gimme", you spend hours helping your mates doing other things.
To put an "end" on this genre of game is wrong, else we would all play up to xx hours and leave, but we dont, we find new ways our toons can entertain us. The only end is when you give up on the three things MMOs are designed for; fun, grind and sociability.
And for an old school player to think 20+days is too long to 50, thats daft, the average before all the easy mode leveling used to be 20-30 days /played. But this was over a year, and used to be acceptable until people got lazy.
Since ive been playing allmost all the biggies mmorpgs except EQ, i dont fancy leveling for 4 months to compete anymore... Im sick and tirred of leveling in the different games, and imo the perfect rvr/pvp mmorpg would be, do quests(sotryline) and get ur pvp gear as rewards allong the way, pvp, get skilled, skill system as in AC, where it improves as u play longer.
Include some styles, combos etc which is hard to master, so its skill vs skill not class vs class.
Include some styles, combos etc which is hard to master, so its skill vs skill not class vs class.
A normal person can get to L50, ML10, CL5, RR5+ in DAoC in 3-6 days played? (that's endgame level IMHO)
That's news to me.
OK. They've made it almost too easy to get to L50, MLs are easier than they've ever been, CLs are just a question of time, but then you go out to RvR as a L50 ML10 CL5 & it seems everyone you meet is RR10 +/- 1-2 RRs & since all you ever get is rezz-sickness you soon realise you're not going to reach RR5 within any realistic timespan so what's the point in RvR?
In my experience you can divide long-term DAoC players into 4 roughly equal groups with respect to RvR:-
1) People who hate RvR & have long decided they're never ever going to go there again.
2) People who would like to RvR but generally only ever get a (multiple) dose of rezz-sickness out of it so don't really bother with it.
3) People who occasionally RvR but mostly find it too frustrating.
4) People who almost exclusively RvR, moan about their realmmates lack of willingness to RvR & the general lack of people to have good fights with, & are categorically opposed to any changes which might encourage the rest to RvR as it might impinge on their own supposed l33tn3ss.
Making it a lot easier to get to RR5 would go a long way to giving RvR more mass-appeal IMHO, & Cathal Valley & the recent "improvements" to Leirvik definately weren't the right way to go IMO, as all that seemed to accomplish was making Leirvik less active than before.
That's news to me.
OK. They've made it almost too easy to get to L50, MLs are easier than they've ever been, CLs are just a question of time, but then you go out to RvR as a L50 ML10 CL5 & it seems everyone you meet is RR10 +/- 1-2 RRs & since all you ever get is rezz-sickness you soon realise you're not going to reach RR5 within any realistic timespan so what's the point in RvR?
In my experience you can divide long-term DAoC players into 4 roughly equal groups with respect to RvR:-
1) People who hate RvR & have long decided they're never ever going to go there again.
2) People who would like to RvR but generally only ever get a (multiple) dose of rezz-sickness out of it so don't really bother with it.
3) People who occasionally RvR but mostly find it too frustrating.
4) People who almost exclusively RvR, moan about their realmmates lack of willingness to RvR & the general lack of people to have good fights with, & are categorically opposed to any changes which might encourage the rest to RvR as it might impinge on their own supposed l33tn3ss.
Making it a lot easier to get to RR5 would go a long way to giving RvR more mass-appeal IMHO, & Cathal Valley & the recent "improvements" to Leirvik definately weren't the right way to go IMO, as all that seemed to accomplish was making Leirvik less active than before.
old.Whoodoo
Can't get enough of FH
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2003
- Messages
- 3,646
Thats called Guild Wars, you are playing the wrong game IMO.cuNio said:
Ctuchik
FH is my second home
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2003
- Messages
- 10,463
cuNio said:
then MMORPG's isnt really what ur intrested in.. the whole POINT with theese games is that there really isnt a end and theres always *something* that will be a improvement to your toon, i dont have a problem with grinding and stuff. aslong as i think its fun. but when its just sitting at 1 spot, semi AFK'ing while mashing the anytime style/pet heal once every 5 minutes. its just not fun anymore...
WoW, imo have THE best endgame pve on the market atm. the instances are fun, challenging and u can always find something thats better then what u got. and, the best of it all. u cant solo farm it and sell it for moronic prices on the AH like in DAoC... sure WoW isnt as old as DAoC is but when DAoC was as old as WoW is now, the economy was already fucked up by farmers selling "good" items for laughably high prices calaiming they "deserve it"....
WoW still have a pretty damn healthy economy still. yes theres a shitload of chinese gold farmers around thats annoying the living hell out of me. but as none of the really really uber gear are sellable once u have picked it up, theres not that much u CAN spend the cash on. so they dont earn much, if any cash selling it as theres so many that compete they have to dump the proices so low its silly.
that aside, WoW has its flaws, i agree on that. the grafic could be better among other things, the pvp could be more logic (and they are working on that). but all in all, for a casual player, WoW is alot more appealing then DAoC is. the instances isnt *that* time consuming, they are darn fun most of the time if u arent in a pickup group. and the pvp as stupid as the honor system is, can be pretty fun most of the times. and u can buy some pretty decent pvp gear just by getting reputation to the diffrent battlegrount factijns, so u dont *have* to fight for rank 14. and after burning crusade hits, u wont anyway.
heres hoping Warhammer takes the best out of DAoC and WoW. DAoC rvr and WoW pve...
Vasconcelos
Part of the furniture
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2003
- Messages
- 4,022
As the developers been advertising for so long, WAR is all about mass battles, RvR, PvP,.... i cant see why sum1 who is being attracted by that motto would like to not experience this concept of "end game" asap. Thus, i would say 24hrs or 1day/played.
old.Whoodoo
Can't get enough of FH
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2003
- Messages
- 3,646
MMOs mean that is always able to change, in specs, abilities, items, toys and playstyles, so again, this genre have no "endgame".Saggy said:
If trying out different specs, abilities and toys is your thing then surely you need to get lots of RA/skill/ML respec stones to reach "end game" level? Again "end game" starts once you have reached all the essential stuff meaning your character is suitable to do anything you want to do with it.old.Whoodoo said:
The game isn't supposed to end at "end game", "end game" is where the game actually starts.
AngelHeal
Part of the furniture
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2004
- Messages
- 3,757
imoooo...
daoc endlevel is now:
level 50
cl5 (soon more)
ml10
artifacts
and all stuff...
yes i know people con yellow at 50 but that doesnt mean it's the same level....
Your toon is NOT done and not able to rvr unless u have a very nice set up group and atleast SOME artis and mls or that ur toon is FULLY toa'ed etc etc
daoc endlevel is now:
level 50
cl5 (soon more)
ml10
artifacts
and all stuff...
yes i know people con yellow at 50 but that doesnt mean it's the same level....
Your toon is NOT done and not able to rvr unless u have a very nice set up group and atleast SOME artis and mls or that ur toon is FULLY toa'ed etc etc
MadsKaizer
Fledgling Freddie
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2005
- Messages
- 748
yeah, like daoc was at release, that way you got to bond with you char and not roll alts all the time 
Xrystofer
Resident Freddy
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2004
- Messages
- 2,098
3-6 days with my two necros i did 5-6 without pl just solo xp in barrows
some other classes take more time to reach 50 but pl i think 1-2 days depends realm and where u xp
i have seen 5days played chars that they are already rr5+
(before rp love tho )
some other classes take more time to reach 50 but pl i think 1-2 days depends realm and where u xp
i have seen 5days played chars that they are already rr5+
(before rp love tho )
leviathane
Part of the furniture
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2003
- Messages
- 7,704
instant end game xD
Straef
Can't get enough of FH
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2004
- Messages
- 5,890
I don't think the 3-4 days option is quite realistic for DAoC, as it used to take like 20 days I'd say about 10 days or so played is good, if the pve is decent and there's some proper pvp at the end. If pvp turns out to be wank the leveling should take longer, to keep you occupied. Or keep the leveling up at a low while increasing the amount of time you can spend at level 50 (or whatever the level cap will be).
I'd say about 10 days or so played is good, if the pve is decent and there's some proper pvp at the end. If pvp turns out to be wank the leveling should take longer, to keep you occupied. Or keep the leveling up at a low while increasing the amount of time you can spend at level 50 (or whatever the level cap will be).
Soazak
Part of the furniture
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2004
- Messages
- 1,109
Not sure if its been said, but it depends totally on the type of pve content..
eg pve in wow is fun, in daoc first time round pve was fine, but the second, third....50th time you do it...all you want to do is get 50 so you can rvr..
If daoc took as long to get 50 today, as it did on release...i couldnt cope with it tbh
Endgame means different things to different ppl, i think REAL end game is when you don't need to play no more, you've finished it...but as someone mentioned MMO's dont rly finish, so imo it just depends on how much of the time it takes you to get endgame, is actually fun.
eg pve in wow is fun, in daoc first time round pve was fine, but the second, third....50th time you do it...all you want to do is get 50 so you can rvr..
If daoc took as long to get 50 today, as it did on release...i couldnt cope with it tbh
Endgame means different things to different ppl, i think REAL end game is when you don't need to play no more, you've finished it...but as someone mentioned MMO's dont rly finish, so imo it just depends on how much of the time it takes you to get endgame, is actually fun.
Golena
Fledgling Freddie
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2004
- Messages
- 3,292
There is an "end game" to MMPORGS which is basically when what you are doing is a repeat of what you did yesterday.
In DAoC this is RvR, yup you can still farm more cash, and get more realm points so it's not the end of the game, but the way you are doing that isn't changing. While leveling your moving to different areas and there's mobs your not able to kill with your character, so that's not end game.
Given that definition i'd like end game to be as far away as possible. If a MMPORG is something that you have to grind for 8 days /played then go play the game you enjoy then it's failing.
Take leveling up in DAoC by sticking your PL to your PL'er. That's not fun and so the shorter time it lasts the better.
Now level up in busy battlegrounds against other players. That's actually fun and so if it lasted for 4 weeks /played it wouldn't be an issue, but you'd have longer to experience new stuff.
So the question isn't how long should you be forced to do boring stuff for, but how can they make the "leveling" process feel like something other than mashing the taunt key until you get a "ding game" message.
Leveling your second char should either be very very fast, or involve something different to your first char. Battlegrounds being a perfect example of a way to make leveling the Alt fun even if it takes a while.
In DAoC this is RvR, yup you can still farm more cash, and get more realm points so it's not the end of the game, but the way you are doing that isn't changing. While leveling your moving to different areas and there's mobs your not able to kill with your character, so that's not end game.
Given that definition i'd like end game to be as far away as possible. If a MMPORG is something that you have to grind for 8 days /played then go play the game you enjoy then it's failing.
Take leveling up in DAoC by sticking your PL to your PL'er. That's not fun and so the shorter time it lasts the better.
Now level up in busy battlegrounds against other players. That's actually fun and so if it lasted for 4 weeks /played it wouldn't be an issue, but you'd have longer to experience new stuff.
So the question isn't how long should you be forced to do boring stuff for, but how can they make the "leveling" process feel like something other than mashing the taunt key until you get a "ding game" message.
Leveling your second char should either be very very fast, or involve something different to your first char. Battlegrounds being a perfect example of a way to make leveling the Alt fun even if it takes a while.