How are champs, especially banelord champs, nowadays? :X

Xaldrick

Fledgling Freddie
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Jan 9, 2004
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Ilaya will flame me for this comment but I have to push it through :p
I can't see why so many people think s/s is the way to go for a champion. We all know the class has been gimped since introduction of RA's, but chosing shield spec gimps them even furthermore imho because of several issues.
(1) Lack of spec points. In order to have the propper debuffs and actually do little dmg, champions are forced to stay at 42 shield spec for slam. This will leave only 39 points for a weapon spec if you want 50 valor for propperly non-resisted debuffs.
(2) Lack of weaponskill. As a part of the spec point issue, shield champs also get furthermore crippled by the hybrid-curse of low weaponskill.
(3) Medium shields. Most tank groups run with at least 2 assisters so the 3rd of the three tanks banging on whatever caster/healer who's being guarded will be totally unaffected by this.
(4) Lack of determination. Old issue - doesnt need further explanation.

Ok, so champs can debuff enemy tanks and interrupt support from distance. If we look at debuffs again, the shield champ can debuff 1 target every 20 seconds and interrupt with 2 spells on 15/20 mins timer whereas one of them leaves the target with root immunity.
On the other hand we have a hero who has
(1) Enough spec points for the wanted 50 shield and 50 weapon spec which as we all know can be lw or cs.
(2) A hell of a lot more weaponskill. Heroes wont miss (or fumble) near as much as a shield champ will.
(3) Large shields
(4) Determination
Heroes are the natural defensive tank, the only little advantedge shield champs had over heroes (ability to cast spells after grapling a target) has already been nerfed. The true role of the champion is not to stand back and defend support but to be at the frontline wreaking havoc at the enemy support - a role LW spec fits much better. Banelord line auguments this even further, especially with the zone of unmana which can be devastating, to say the least.

Along with the long waited "ungimpening" of the champion class, New Frontiers should also clear out the difference in the champion/hero role even more as heroes will get tactics and dashing defense whereas champs get a tripple-wield'ish ability along with a serie of other interruption tools.
 

Llixeraxu

Fledgling Freddie
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Feb 3, 2004
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130
Xaldrick said:
Ilaya will flame me for this comment but I have to push it through :p
I can't see why so many people think s/s is the way to go for a champion. We all know the class has been gimped since introduction of RA's, but chosing shield spec gimps them even furthermore imho because of several issues.
(1) Lack of spec points. In order to have the propper debuffs and actually do little dmg, champions are forced to stay at 42 shield spec for slam. This will leave only 39 points for a weapon spec if you want 50 valor for propperly non-resisted debuffs.
(2) Lack of weaponskill. As a part of the spec point issue, shield champs also get furthermore crippled by the hybrid-curse of low weaponskill.
(3) Medium shields. Most tank groups run with at least 2 assisters so the 3rd of the three tanks banging on whatever caster/healer who's being guarded will be totally unaffected by this.
(4) Lack of determination. Old issue - doesnt need further explanation.

Ok, so champs can debuff enemy tanks and interrupt support from distance. If we look at debuffs again, the shield champ can debuff 1 target every 20 seconds and interrupt with 2 spells on 15/20 mins timer whereas one of them leaves the target with root immunity.
On the other hand we have a hero who has
(1) Enough spec points for the wanted 50 shield and 50 weapon spec which as we all know can be lw or cs.
(2) A hell of a lot more weaponskill. Heroes wont miss (or fumble) near as much as a shield champ will.
(3) Large shields
(4) Determination
Heroes are the natural defensive tank, the only little advantedge shield champs had over heroes (ability to cast spells after grapling a target) has already been nerfed. The true role of the champion is not to stand back and defend support but to be at the frontline wreaking havoc at the enemy support - a role LW spec fits much better. Banelord line auguments this even further, especially with the zone of unmana which can be devastating, to say the least.

Along with the long waited "ungimpening" of the champion class, New Frontiers should also clear out the difference in the champion/hero role even more as heroes will get tactics and dashing defense whereas champs get a tripple-wield'ish ability along with a serie of other interruption tools.

I can see why you have said the following. Its an opinion held by many, in my opinion n00b(for want of a better word), would hold.

For the reasons im now going to state. Badly.

your point about lacking spec point to make an effective sheild tank. Alot of heros (slam switchers) spec 42 sheild. Champs on the whole have 42 sheild too.. for slam. Now, although your number for wepon skill will be low.. that is only the wepon skill for your main hand.

i.e i have 1 blades ,,, ill have shit wep skill on stat screen. and have 50 sheild.. ill be better with a sheil than somone with great wep skill and 49 sheild. so

42 sheild on hero.. is same as 42 sheild on champ. not taking dex into account.

ok.. that is my understanding.. now someone will correct me.. but yeah.. :p Nyborjane!

ok what else before my film starts.. err

Medium sheild. I wouldnt use a large sheild myself.. as ive been blocking multiple opponants before with no problems.. more than 3.

Lack of det. Well here comes NF.

Now i been both S/S and LW both for long periods of time. both for (i think) alot of rvr. good and bad.

Now i see arguments for both.. just better ones than stated above.. NO offense of flame intended. Just dont think those reasons hold weight for me.

If anything id say that its hard to play a champ.. and few do it well enough for us to get the recognistion we need. We can debuff people so we guard better.. we can interrupt casters who have bg..

and champs are just nicer players on the whole. We gotta be, else who would group us ?


ohh film starting gotta go!
 

Xaldrick

Fledgling Freddie
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Messages
63
Llixeraxu said:
I can see why you have said the following. Its an opinion held by many, in my opinion n00b(for want of a better word), would hold.

For the reasons im now going to state. Badly.

your point about lacking spec point to make an effective sheild tank. Alot of heros (slam switchers) spec 42 sheild. Champs on the whole have 42 sheild too.. for slam. Now, although your number for wepon skill will be low.. that is only the wepon skill for your main hand.

i.e i have 1 blades ,,, ill have shit wep skill on stat screen. and have 50 sheild.. ill be better with a sheil than somone with great wep skill and 49 sheild. so

42 sheild on hero.. is same as 42 sheild on champ. not taking dex into account.

ok.. that is my understanding.. now someone will correct me.. but yeah.. :p Nyborjane!

ok what else before my film starts.. err

Medium sheild. I wouldnt use a large sheild myself.. as ive been blocking multiple opponants before with no problems.. more than 3.

Lack of det. Well here comes NF.

Now i been both S/S and LW both for long periods of time. both for (i think) alot of rvr. good and bad.

Now i see arguments for both.. just better ones than stated above.. NO offense of flame intended. Just dont think those reasons hold weight for me.

If anything id say that its hard to play a champ.. and few do it well enough for us to get the recognistion we need. We can debuff people so we guard better.. we can interrupt casters who have bg..

and champs are just nicer players on the whole. We gotta be, else who would group us ?


ohh film starting gotta go!


42 shield spec on a hero is a thing of the past - everyone specs 50/50/28 now.

That means you have 8 points of weapon specs (in this case shield styles) of lower weaponskill - thats before you take the hybrid-penalty into account.
And even after you've slammed a target you have to poke to it with 39 weapon spec dealing puny damage.
Being a champ I know the usefulness of the ranged interrupts BUT you cant keep anythign completely interrupted with it, thats why you should be chasing whatever support-threat you may find rather than standing back and relying on dd with 15 seconds downtime to keep you safe.

As of NF resorting the determination issue I really fail to see why you would chose a shield champ with the before mentioned drawbacks over a hero who can guard and parry for the whole group, just for a single debuffed enemy tank and a 3 seconds delayed healer/caster action.

EDIT: And id like to hear the "better arguments" you've heard as I fail to see other issues than those Ive mentioned.
 

Llixeraxu

Fledgling Freddie
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Messages
130
Xaldrick said:
42 shield spec on a hero is a thing of the past - everyone specs 50/50/28 now.

That means you have 8 points of weapon specs (in this case shield styles) of lower weaponskill - thats before you take the hybrid-penalty into account.
And even after you've slammed a target you have to poke to it with 39 weapon spec dealing puny damage.
Being a champ I know the usefulness of the ranged interrupts BUT you cant keep anythign completely interrupted with it, thats why you should be chasing whatever support-threat you may find rather than standing back and relying on dd with 15 seconds downtime to keep you safe.

As of NF resorting the determination issue I really fail to see why you would chose a shield champ with the before mentioned drawbacks over a hero who can guard and parry for the whole group, just for a single debuffed enemy tank and a 3 seconds delayed healer/caster action.

EDIT: And id like to hear the "better arguments" you've heard as I fail to see other issues than those Ive mentioned.


Firstly.. lol.

And now to the point in hand.

I can spec 50 sheild too..

and as im a good sheild tank i dont go chasing threats around i guard my sqwishy.

My better arguement for a champ over hero... :wij:
 

Exiled-Mighty

Fledgling Freddie
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in NF imo champs will play a more defencive roll, stick back with casters, interupting ppl with DD and snare, and if the casters/healers get rushed, spam STempest. now i could be wrong, i was LW from level 1, respec'ed to p/s a few weeks back, p/s is very useful spec to have, but as stated you hit like a wet fish, i do miss my LW 300+ dmg hits, but if you dont have a regular rvr group spot (lets face it, no champ does really unless in a soley RvR guild)you have even less of a shot of getting in with LW.

seems like its very much become a play what people want you to play kinda game, not play what you enjoy, also got some annoyances when i sugested respecing to banelord instead of battlemaster but :x :wub:
 

Xaldrick

Fledgling Freddie
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Messages
63
Llixeraxu said:
Firstly.. lol.

And now to the point in hand.

I can spec 50 sheild too..

and as im a good sheild tank i dont go chasing threats around i guard my sqwishy.

My better arguement for a champ over hero... :wij:

/ponder
 

wismerhill

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jun 19, 2004
Messages
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all very interesting ofcourse but I still wanna know if I'd do more dmg with 39blades then with 39pierce , taken into considerate that I'm a keen
going 39weap,42sh,50valor,6parry OR might just stick with LW but I'm having big problems with archers keep firing at me 'till I get into range for interrupt , snare , then debuffs/anni ... most of the time I don't make it vs archers,casters , but I was thinking , why not : 50LW/50valor/7sh, and 20+ in parry .... but to get back on my Q : Pierce or Slash for a keen ( dmg wise ) ?





:puke:
 

Adari

Part of the furniture
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I dont want a champ nemore, fs, stop bumping this. =P
 

Eredrin

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whether to go p/s or s/s depends abit on if u rvr selfbuffed or use a bb or something, with a bb u will have way higher dex than str, so pierce would be the way to go. I respecced from LW to p/s a while ago, but back to LW now :)
 

wismerhill

Fledgling Freddie
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prolly going S/S then @ 40 or sticking LW , but raising parry fast so I can be better in PvE ...taking a tad too much dmg vs org's imo :(

got DF gear ( for lvl'ing ) and couple of 99%qua/100% weaps , decent jewels n stuff , but only got parry 3 or 4 , think it's 'cause of that

gonna raise parry only these last 2 lvl's 'till 40 and if it doesn't get any better I respec to shield
 

Llixeraxu

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wismerhill said:
prolly going S/S then @ 40 or sticking LW , but raising parry fast so I can be better in PvE ...taking a tad too much dmg vs org's imo :(

got DF gear ( for lvl'ing ) and couple of 99%qua/100% weaps , decent jewels n stuff , but only got parry 3 or 4 , think it's 'cause of that

gonna raise parry only these last 2 lvl's 'till 40 and if it doesn't get any better I respec to shield

Your pve in lvling isnt a good representation of how youll perform in RvR( and im assuming thats your goal)

Champ is a skilled class man. My advise to you is just get threw the lvling up to 50 and enjoy it as much as you can. and try and stick to a Template advised to you. In the long run parry is worthless... on the whole.

I remember laralyn telling me that she had mastry of blocking 3 and mastry of parry 3. and that soon parry would be alterd so that it was usfull in rvr, ive still not seen it.

S/S imo is the spec for the .. skilled.. nifty champ who youll find it hard to ever hit and will wittle your health down.

LW is for the.. hard hitting brute of a champ, you wouldnt want to meat in a dark ally but, will take alot of dmg while dealing twice as much back.

which is you?
 

Llixeraxu

Fledgling Freddie
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One thing i can assure you is that, by rolling a champ and sticking with it you will become part of an Elite Comunity that tends to stick together.. and whine together.

If youve played a champ for any period you gain respect for those that stick with it, and so the respect i would say on the whole of the majoraty of the playing comunity.

Illaya , Elricstormbringer, Rauno.
are a few.

And there are only a few.

Im often told i should roll a hero.. ill have none of it. I played a hero once and it was the single most boring experience in the game to date. Its a champ with half the buttons lol.

I play for fun.. not for the figures on my RP counter (although it is nice)

I like the fact that my class is special.. that makes me special to have stuck with something nobody else can hack.

All due respect to the ability of the High rr heros. But put them in a champ and theyd have less than me.
 

Eluvia

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Llixeraxu said:
One thing i can assure you is that, by rolling a champ and sticking with it you will become part of an Elite Comunity that tends to stick together.. and whine together.

If youve played a champ for any period you gain respect for those that stick with it, and so the respect i would say on the whole of the majoraty of the playing comunity.

Illaya , Elricstormbringer, Rauno.
are a few.

And there are only a few.

Im often told i should roll a hero.. ill have none of it. I played a hero once and it was the single most boring experience in the game to date. Its a champ with half the buttons lol.

I play for fun.. not for the figures on my RP counter (although it is nice)

I like the fact that my class is special.. that makes me special to have stuck with something nobody else can hack.

All due respect to the ability of the High rr heros. But put them in a champ and theyd have less than me.


Elricstormbringer?! the guy who sits at HPK and DD's suiciders 24/7? !!!!!!
Ur crazy lol
 

Eluvia

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Im one of the people who used to solo odins most days about 6 months ago for 2 months , and he would be there every time i got bored and suicided to DD me rofl. One time he came down and fought me, saw he was losing used IP and ran back to HPK. He never came down again rofl.
 

Elricstormbringer

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Eluvia said:
Im one of the people who used to solo odins most days about 6 months ago for 2 months , and he would be there every time i got bored and suicided to DD me rofl. One time he came down and fought me, saw he was losing used IP and ran back to HPK. He never came down again rofl.

Odd that as I do not have IP

Llixeraxu said:
and who the hell are you ?? lol

Exactly



You don't get RR7 DDing suiciders.
 

wismerhill

Fledgling Freddie
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thanks for all the help guys my spec's is gonna be :
50LW/50valor/10shield ( no points left then )/20+parry for when using my LW , shield only for archers and such

I only play hybrids , cast-hybrids/tank-hybrids doesn't matter , if I play a pure caster or tank I get bored after lvl 20-30 ...

btw could I know your spec llieraxu and other skilled champs please.

btw , I ain't no whiner lol , champs are fine the way they are imho :cheers:
 

Danamyr

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Boni said:
Det 5 in NF is not the same as Det 5 now, purge 3 might improve a champs chances, but det5 isnt a solution and with stoicisim, their hit points, hero RA, moose etc, heros will remain THE best defensive tank by far.

Please! :D

A Paladin is THE best defensive tank by far IMHO. I'll take the Pepsi Challenge with any of your S/S spec Heroes or Champs any time you like :D

I had a Lvl 50 Champion on Hib/Prd specced 50 Valor/50 LW/28 Parry. I deleted him in utter frustration at never getting an RvR group. I really wish I'd just respecced to S/S. Although End would be an issue, a S/S specced Champ would be a great defensive light tank IMHO. The debuffs would hurt all classes, and the DD is great for interupting.

Might roll another on Hib/Pryd come to think about it...
 

Llixeraxu

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Elricstormbringer said:
You don't get RR7 DDing suiciders.

Damn straight!

Man your a good champ. No doubt about it, one of the best players in all classes.

And being a good champ isnt just about having loads of RVR or RP.

Its also how you carry yourself things you do off the battle field. I would say most champs are well respected nice people... dedicated to there class.

An Elric has achieved alot in HIbernia.. if i was to achieve half of it i would be over joyed with my DaOC carrier.

Kudos Elric.
 

Llixeraxu

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Danamyr said:
Please! :D

A Paladin is THE best defensive tank by far IMHO. I'll take the Pepsi Challenge with any of your S/S spec Heroes or Champs any time you like :D

I had a Lvl 50 Champion on Hib/Prd specced 50 Valor/50 LW/28 Parry. I deleted him in utter frustration at never getting an RvR group. I really wish I'd just respecced to S/S. Although End would be an issue, a S/S specced Champ would be a great defensive light tank IMHO. The debuffs would hurt all classes, and the DD is great for interupting.

Might roll another on Hib/Pryd come to think about it...

Hey man i may just take you up on that ;)
 

Raven

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do champs get the free passive 25% det in NF?
 

Xaldrick

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Danamyr said:
Please! :D

A Paladin is THE best defensive tank by far IMHO. I'll take the Pepsi Challenge with any of your S/S spec Heroes or Champs any time you like :D

State of the game now, paladins are indeed the best defensive tank, but I think dashing defense will make heroes superior - at least rvr-wise.

Danamyr said:
I had a Lvl 50 Champion on Hib/Prd specced 50 Valor/50 LW/28 Parry. I deleted him in utter frustration at never getting an RvR group. I really wish I'd just respecced to S/S. Although End would be an issue, a S/S specced Champ would be a great defensive light tank IMHO. The debuffs would hurt all classes, and the DD is great for interupting.

Might roll another on Hib/Pryd come to think about it...

Respeccing shield wouldnt change a thing, since people _know_ that champs dont have det, and for the l337'tists thats all that matters.

Now Im repeating myself, but I still fail to see why people want to ignore the offensive capabilities of damage and interruption the champion has. Even the champ only RA is geared towards it, shite damage or not, its another (offensive) interrupt tool, and the effect will remain the same in NF.
The skilled champion can interrupt 2 healers from distance whilst debuff+annihilate a caster and interrupt the whole lot once more if they decide to box.
 

Xaldrick

Fledgling Freddie
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Danamyr said:
Please! :D

A Paladin is THE best defensive tank by far IMHO. I'll take the Pepsi Challenge with any of your S/S spec Heroes or Champs any time you like :D

As a side note, duels doesnt show who's the best at defense, and I really really doubt you can take out a champion singlehandedly, least of all a shield champ :p
 

Danya

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I'd go with paladin being the best - 9xx AF, heal chant and shield spec are just hard to beat for pure defence. Champs and heroes have other benefits, but for sheer defensive ability paladins are kings.
 

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