HND computing

[old.Comatosed]

You've probably already answered this Frankie but I'm too tired to read the whole thread properly

What 'career' are you looking to go into? Development/SE(hardware)/networks/etc ?

 

[*Exor*]

It's the differnce between being the monkey or the master.

A degree doesn't make you the master, experience does.

 

[stu]

Originally posted by sjp
no, i dident include that because you are not comparing like with like.

Errr... of course it is.

Paul's entire point was that he didn't do a degree, but in its place he has 5 years of real world experience.

Count along with me here...

2 years for A Levels
+
3 years for a Degree
=
5 years

So, if you leave school after your GCSEs and work, rather than pursue higher education, then when someone of the same age as you has finished their degree, and has 0 years of education, you will have (come on you must have worked it out by now)... 5 years.

So no degree + 5 years of experience = degree + 0 experience, because the two candidates are the same age.

 

[stu]

Originally posted by Paradroid
Yeah 22-28 grand a year is great for only 6-18 months experience programming (i.e. no degree) but what happens at promotion time? Are you experienced in presentations? Are you able to budget and balance finances for large projects?
How's your marketing? Know anything about molecular physics? How's about radiation? Could you mathematically model a 3-D envirnoment? Ok, how about signal processing? How's your Laplace transforms coming along?

I did a degree and I can't do any of those things (apart from Marketing, due to spending time in Group Marketing).

But, surprisingly enough, none of our development guys have ever been relied upon for their knowledge on radiation or molecular physics. Funny that. They're developers. I can't think why we'd want them for their development skills.

 

[old.sjp]

yep, somewhere in my brain all of the above lurk

but not once have i needed to bring my vast knowledge of themonuclier dynamnics into play


and i alos cant speel so who gives a fuck

 

[old.Comatosed]

So no degree + 5 years of experience = degree + 0 experience, because the two candidates are the same age.

Totally irrelevant. Those 2 candidates would never be applying for the same position.

The candidate of 5 years experiance would be applying for a more senior position than the graduate and will be attracting the appropriate (greater) salary.

The experience gap between the two narrows quickly (1-2 years) by which time the graduate will be the more attractive recruit.

A degree doesn't make you the master, experience does

I've torn apart code written by developers 10 years my senior. Experience is nothing compared to aptitude.

Anyway back to the orginial thread.....wtf is it Frankie wants to do anyway?

 

[old.Luap2]

In the end it comes down to personal choice. If your the sort of person that is patient enough to get a degree, get MCSE / Cisco whatever and then go to into the big bad corporate M$ kissing world then thats very good for you.

Most ppl can't wait to get out to werk and buy thier first Nova or Pug.

It also comes down to money. If you have the cash or can be funded to live while doing courses then thats great. If like most you have to work to live then get a job in the basement of IT (1st line tech sup) and work up. That's what I did and look at me now Ma, top of the world! Well, doing ok anyway.

 

[*Exor*]

I've torn apart code written by developers 10 years my senior. Experience is nothing compared to aptitude.

What's that got to do with my quote? A degree had nothing to do with you tearing apart their code.

 

[old.frankie]

Right.

Thing is i dont know exactly what i want to do, i dont know what aspect i like the most. I think prolly networking and web development would interest me the most, but i dont know until i try everything, i may end up hating networking and liking somming else instead. If i did the HND, then i would be able to see what is best, and then do that.

thanks people

Another thing i want to know, and i really need a striaght answer.

1. If i were to try and go ahead along this route, HND - Degree - MSCE, what would my job prospects be, and essentially, will i be able to get there, with no previous experiance.

Thanks

 

[*Exor*]

It depends if future employers require someone who can spell or not.

 

[old.Paradroid]

If I were back at the decision stage (knowing what I do now) I would do an open uni type thing...I hated uni with a foaming vengence, snotty fuk-wits adequately describes MOST of the faculty and students. Problem is with my degree you need to do the labs (4 hours a week per subject+full report on all) which I couldn't have done from home...but a solely computing related degree...mmm..probably.

And what I was meaning earlier was that I wouldn't want my whole working life in a pigeon-hole, only able to do one thing cause that's all the training I got. I mean shit your qualifications should widen your prospects not narrow them.

Anyway lots of people don't look at the specifics of your degree just that you have one.
It's that you decided to get one and you got it.
That you tried and you succeeded.
It's demonstrates your ability to learn.

 

[old.sjp]

frankie,

like i said, its quite easy to walk into a decent-ish job at the moment IF you have a decent degree (and NO experience ) and imho a degree in comuting is one of the easier ones (also SOME of it might be of a bit of use in the future, unlike my pure physics degree ).

Let me repeat, please, please, please DONT do the HND, try and get on a degree course (even if its at a shitty uni) if you do do it you will prbably regret it in a few years ...

prospect wise, i started on £15500 (Masters degree no expeience) and have recieved pay rises of arround 13% each year since (iam sure some twats will come back and say how shit that is, but tbh iam on a passable wage now + i have the all important 3yrs experince ....).

most big firms have graduate training programs salary in the £15000 - 20000 range i guess, but like i said it doesent take that long to overtake someone whos been working for a few years).

o yea, i live in the manchester area so if you are down south i guess you can bump that up as usual.

 

[stu]

Originally posted by Comatosed
Totally irrelevant. Those 2 candidates would never be applying for the same position.

Very relevant, because we are talking about this from the individual person's point of view, not the company's. Five years post GCSE, they are the two scenarios facing a person. It's a subjective not objective question.

The candidate of 5 years experiance would be applying for a more senior position than the graduate and will be attracting the appropriate (greater) salary.

Utter horseshit. Depends entirely on industry (as both Paul and myself said above).

I've torn apart code written by developers 10 years my senior. Experience is nothing compared to aptitude.

So a degree = aptitude? I don't think so.

 

[old.frankie]

The HND i could do would go stright into a degree if i did an extra year, so basically its a degree

 

[old.MeddlE]

Isn't the HND converted into a 'straight' BSc degree, not a BSc (Hons)?? Therefor giving away the fact that you didn't 'do' the degree but converted an HND? Go straight for the BSc (Hons) with the bonus that you are half-way to being a chartered engineer at the end of it. Personally though, experience over qualification every time.

 

[old.sjp]

frankie,

i think hes right ........

check with the department running the course and make sure you would get an B.Sc(hons).

also see which uni rubber stamps the degree, in manchester thier are a couple of collegdes (cant speel remmebrt who run degree courses, but the degrees issued by Manhester Uni . . . . . .

. . . . . lie, and say you went there instead (true if u have to supply the degree) and it looks alot better than flee bag colledge

 

[old.Diablo]

It is a BSc(Hons) - search for cource code G360 (i think) at certain uni's (I'm almost positive that's the UCAS code).

Diablo
http://www.ukjbl.co.uk

 

[old.Comatosed]

What's that got to do with my quote? A degree had nothing to do with you tearing apart their code.

It has everything to do with your quote. Your point was that experiance was more important than the a degree. Mine that aptitude outranks both.

So a degree = aptitude? I don't think so

Certainly doesn't. Nor does experiance = aptitude.

Utter horseshit. Depends entirely on industry (as both Paul and myself said above).

Really...

5 years commercial experience (the time it takes to go from GCSE to degree) will OBLITERATE any competitors who are straight out of uni.

and

Experience (let's say 4 years for a decent company, with a proven track record)
or...
degree + no experience.
Who would you chose to code your product?

Thats was I was responding to.

Thing is i dont know exactly what i want to do, i dont know what aspect i like the most

Go ahead and try the HND and/or degree. Take a good look through a number of course handbooks to make sure they cover the range of topics you need to 'try'.

If i were to try and go ahead along this route, HND - Degree - MSCE, what would my job prospects be, and essentially, will i be able to get there, with no previous experiance.

MSCE would be the route to take if you persue SE type work as a career. Its not of much use to a developer to start with (although I may rush it through in a few years time, to fill in some gaps). Best bet would be joining a company as a trainee SE with paid for MSCE/Cisco training etc. I'd imagine the starting wage would be lower than for a trainee developer. Maybe £16-20,000 region.

Would be worthwhile contacting a few organisations to find out what they look for in recruits, try get a year out placement and/or summer work etc?

 

[old.frankie]

brill

thanks for all your help

Now i dont know much about courses and things like that, so could you help us out with these weird names

whats Bsc hons and all that weird stuff ?

cheers for ya help, much appreciated

 

[old.sjp]

Putting it simple .......

in days gone by, there where Uni's and Poly's, poor ppl went to poly and rich ones went to Uni

this ment they needed a nice way of telling who went to where, to do this the powers that be declared that only a uni could grant an degree with honers



tbh, almost all degree courses are now B.Sc(hons) BUT if you fail the course and have to do a re-sit OR get less than a third class degree (like a D) it is reduced to a "standard" degree ie just B.Sc.

in reality you sat the same exams/course but it says to everyone you arsed up.

the problem is that SOME conversion courses only convert you to a standard degree so you culd not use Frankie B.Sc(hons).


all this as changed since i was at uni, so iam not sure if those conversion courses still do that, thats why i/we were saying pls check with your course.

 

[bodhi]

Speaking from a personal point of view, I'd say missing out on uni is one of the biggest mistakes many people make. It's a learning experience in more ways than the academic sense. You learn how to juggle finances and work and play. But most of all, university is almost guaranteed to be the best 3-5 years of your life. Im actually over the moon that my course lasts 5 years (Msci in Astrophysics at a Scottish uni if anyone wants the secret to spending ages at uni), and am half thinking of starting to work really hard so I can spend another 3 years there and get a PhD . After that? Fuck knows tbh. As long as it doesnt involve working with computers I aint too bothered. So this post prolly isnt much help...... Ah well.


Basically frankie, go to uni.
1) If you dont have fun there you have issues.
2) A degree never hurt anyone's employment chances.
3) If anyone needs help in spelling and other stuff you can learn at uni its probably you (I had to get at least one flame in)


Bodhi

 

[*Exor*]

The only issue I have with not going to uni was the social aspect.

Thankfully I have a lot of friends at uni who I regulaly visit, so I can make up for lost cheap drinking time ¦]

 

[old.MeddlE]

Agreed, my years at uni were good. But certain points of the experience were very frustrating. Like almost everything in this life it's not all good. The worst part for me was the realisation that 70-80% of the lecturers didn't have any 'real world' experience of their subjects, and because I was working in the industry at the same time the mistakes they were making were all too obvious.

Actually, the difference between the majority of the lec's and the few good ones was amazing, there doesn't seem to be a middle ground. They are either dull, boring, speak in a monotone, technically sub-standard types *or* they have the ability, both technically and verbally, to entrance a room full of people for near-on 2 hours.

Anyone else who's been come away with the feeling that you either teach or do?

 

[stu]

Originally posted by *Exor*
The only issue I have with not going to uni was the social aspect.

Thankfully I have a lot of friends at uni who I regulaly visit, so I can make up for lost cheap drinking time ¦]

What, instead of getting within 2 minutes of their house and then turning round and buggering off home again?

 

[stu]

Originally posted by MeddlE
The worst part for me was the realisation that 70-80% of the lecturers didn't have any 'real world' experience of their subjects, and because I was working in the industry at the same time the mistakes they were making were all too obvious.

Almost all of my lecturers were practicing barristers/solicitors, and were pretty prominent figures in the industry. So they all had muchos current practical experience. Yet I'd have to agree with the "charisma" thing - god knows how some of them managed to carry off a successful case, because probably half were dull as fuck.

 

[*Exor*]

thx

 

[old.frankie]

Cheers for your help peeps

will see if i can go do this course

 

[old.TUG]

I wish I'd have gone to uni now... never see most of me old m8s cuz they're always @ uni/work/playing with their girlfriends (those who have them )

I dunno... I kinda got it into my head I was totally fed up with learning things the 'formal' way I guess... but now I am considering signing up for uni next year, do a degree in something to do with PC's no doubt We'll see where I stand financially in a years time I spose... if I have a well sorted Nova thanks to the amount of money I'm earning I might forget about uni (again)

PS: Flame me Nova's on the m00 thread