HND computing

[old.frankie]

Hi

academic advice please

HND computing, tell us about

What i know is that is costs £1025 a year, and is 2 yrs long, and can lead directly into a degree, with another year on the end. What i need to know is - Is it worth it, a good course, and gets you into a good job at the end ?

also, im planning on trying to go into it with only an A-Level in physics, and Geography, would it be advisable to do A-Level computing or advanced GNVQ before ?, because it says that willing people and people with some experiance are welcome.

What do you think ?

Thanks people.

 

[granny]

I can't comment on the content of an HND in computing directly but I can comment on the relative value of such a thing (if that isn't self-contradictory...)

How useful an HND would be depends VERY much on what it is exactly you want to do with it afterwards.

The only bit of advice I would give you is to go and see a careers advisor - in your college or an independant one, whatever. They won't tell you what you should do but they'll be able to tell you what employers in the area you want to work in want and whether an HND will be the right thing for you or not.

/gr.

 

[old.frankie]

cheers

 

[old.JACKDARIPPA]

look around for "cisco" or microsofts "msce" courses ,search for em on the web
v nice job outcime sorted ,big time nice wages benifits etc
but ive heard its hard ,
so im doing my hnd first just to make sure i dont waste the money it costs for the courses
argg no way yous have to pay for your courses ,fook that i wouldnt pay for a hnd jeez thats liek paying for years in school ,fook paying for something that ya dont like
move to scotland get it for freeeeeeeeeee

 

[old.JACKDARIPPA]

also to be a bit more helpfull , a hnd could steer you towards a carrer in it management if thats your turn on

 

[old.Davehart]

dont do it

 

[luap]

Good question.

IMHO, A degree in computing doesn't mean a lot to me. I'm an IT Mannyhair of some years and experiance, realtime knowledge and aptitude is what really counts. If someone came to me out of uni with a degree and wanted to do desktop support (1st step usually), server support (a bit rare as a 1st job) or development work (possible) then I would simply sit them down with a questionaire and see what they know about the job in hand. If theres a tie between two ppl, one with and one without the HND then the second criteria is aptitude and common sense. If still tied then the degree might clinch it but only if the person wasn't full off "In uni we did it like this..."

The MSCE courses are much more focused on a particular range of computer products, Micro$oft, and the courses themselves will give really good product knowledge, a good advantage. Spend the money (you'll have to add some to the £1025) on a MCSEE course, it will pay back better than a degree. The MCSE is hard though, you will have to really focus to pass first time with being in the industry before.


Good luck whatever you do.

BTW. If your going into mainframe, infrastructure or DBa roles then ignore the above and look for advise from that particular sector.

BTW2. I am currently hiring for a IIS5 / ASP / HTTP / VB Web Developer in central London. If anyones interested, contact me right here

 

[old.Diablo]

I've almost finished my HND in IT, and unfortunately nowhere seems interesting in hnd these days. I'm going on to convert it to a degree next year. I'm also doing the cisco course and the mcse.

But (i don't think anyone's mentioned it yet): don't forget that experience is just as (if not more) important these days. Depending on what area you wanna get into, I think i'd suggest doing the reputable courses (cisco, mcse etc), and getting some experience in the meantime (eg if you like networking, local schools always want ppl to link their few pcs; internet design go ask some small businesses if they want a web site).

I've learnt far more from doing stuff like that than on the HND.

 

[old.Inshala]

I agree with luap-ffs, i have a HNC in computer networking. I did the couse for fuck all cause i was on the dole at the time (my usual line of work is/was diesel fitter/machine operator). I did however have a keen interest in computers, having owned one since '92, though i had never considered a job in the IT industry.
The course was fairly broard as to the subject matter and in some ways this caused problems as certain parts of the course were compromised.
For example one of the tutors was an all out linux/unix freak who tried whenever possible to deny that M$ OS's existed. As a result basic bread and butter stuff like NT network installation and managing user accounts was left uncovered. But at the end of the day a bit of paper saying HNC on it is handy if it can help u get your foot in the door.

 

[old.sjp]

let me first say "please dont slag me off" ...


frankie, dont do the HND, most emplyers look down on it and simply assume you where to thick to do the degree fisrt time round.


if you really want a computing degree, try applying to some of the "fake" uni's like salford university, they dont really care what qualifications you have when u start and you will leave with the bit of paper saying ....

something else to bear in mind, is that most employers dont really care what your degree is in, they simply look at the grade (1st or upper second prefered).

also (when i was stuck on the dole ) i did a masters in computing at salford uni, some off it was common to the BSc, and the course was PISS EASY you certianly dont need any computing experience to do that kind of course.


you have not said what kind of job you are hoping to get, because if you want to programme, quite a lo of employers DONT HIRE COMPUTING GRADUATES, they go for more nutral degrees like mats and physics and then train you up (at least they say thay are going to).


can you not get any funding to do a degree ?
do local authouritys not give a pitence of a grant anymore (iam old so bare with me ) ?
if youve been on the dole for 6 mths, cant you get them to pay for it ?



anyway, what ever you dicide to do g'luck and i hope it leads to the job youve always wanted.

 

[Testin da Cable]

'lo m8,

I happen to hold MCP+I and MCSE and am using that to get something called ISS [a course that requires MCSE or CNE or whatever] at the same time I am working towards becoming a CNE [yup I work with Novell products ].
I personally consider field experiance the single most important aspect hands down.

However, lacking a good diploma/degree whatever can damage your future depending on where you'd want to go. After all some companys seem to think that holding the correct papers is holy [not to put anyone down tho] when IMHO they aren't.

To use myself as an example: the company I work for has asked me to go back to da skool and complete the education that I was too lazy to finish off when I had the chance.
Why? Well, the Powers That Be refuse to advance me based on the fact that I don't have the required level of education [offically]. Why do they not advance me? Easy : they want a certain type of person for a specific function. And the type they're looking for has enjoyed [well...] a certain level of education.

Sorry for the ramble m8

-tdc

 

[old.frankie]

Thanks for the help people, tis helping me.

The thing is, i have always wanted to do courses all the way through life, to gain knoledge and understanding, So what i think ill try and do is get the HND out of the way, maybe carry on to a degree, and then, progress into the MSCE thing, and other related courses. This i feel will allow me to do what i want. It seems the only way.

Again, thanks for the help, any more advice welcome.

 

[old.RiGoRmOrTiS]

Well......

I've Done this:
---------------
GCSE
BTEC National Diploma in IT Applications.

Busy doing this:
----------------
BSc Degree (with hons) in Computing Studies.

Planning to do this:
--------------------
A masters degree of some sort. not sure yet. I'm into
networking, putting pc's together.setting them up etc..

 

[*Exor*]

I have been doing some interviews recently.

A VERY small percentage employee's in the IT sector want degree's, they are only really needed for management positions. All they asked me for, is a valid reason why I chose not to go for a degree. That's not hard to provide, I gave them 4.

5 years commercial experience (the time it takes to go from GCSE to degree) will OBLITERATE any competitors who are straight out of uni.

"I employ people, not degree's"

A choice quote from a CEO of one of the companies I went for an interview.

 

[old.sjp]

erm, "A VERY small percentage employee's in the IT sector want degree's" ?

maybe it depends on the type of psoition u are applying for, but in my expeience companys DO require decent qualificatiosn (at least a degree, with a Masters becoming more common).

like i said i can only speak as a programmer, maybe its different in the more techy hardwarery side.

 

[*Exor*]

I'm a C++ programmer, with 3 years experience. I don't touch the "techy hardwarey" side.

I've been getting some fantastic offers from London based companies. None of them were interested in a degree, which is lucky, because I don't have one (or want one). Where programming is concerened, it's only really the Banks that are after degree's (in my experience), and as I said before, project manger type positions.

To be honest, if I was an employer, I'd look more favorabley on the people who didn't follow the "normal" Path (A-levels, degree etc), and did something that they wanted to do, because they enjoyed doing it, and cared about it.

 

[stu]

Originally posted by *Exor*
Where programming is concerened, it's only really the Banks that are after degree's (in my experience), and as I said before, project manger type positions.

This is exactly right. A degree was the number 1 priority for my job (and for employing just about anyone in our company), but actual IT development organisations (rather than organisations that have IT development functions) will be just as/more impressed with experience. You will, from a traditional management point of view, limit your choices in the long run without a degree (there's only so far you can go as a specialist), but if this is what you actually want to do (and it certainly doesn't mean you'll stay poor, the kind of money being thrown around at the moment for code monkeys and the like is astronomical) then experience will do you just as well.

Having said that, I don't believe an HND will. It's kind of a half way house - as sjp said, employers do tend to think that if you've got one it's because you couldn't hack a degree. You'll be without a "proper" further education qualification, and without "real" experience as well. If you're going to take one, imo you should only take it with the view of converting it into a degree.

 

[*Exor*]

Aye, the banks weren't interested in me really.

 

[stu]

It's because you smell I think

 

[old.sjp]

oh ffs, well done Stu !

we were finally having a sensible discusion with Mr ***exor*** and you arse it up !

ive still got to say that round here (manchester btw) most employers expect you to have a degree (they admit its no use, but u still need one), but i guess thats just a general rule thay have no mater what the position is for nowadays.

the honest truth is employers want both a good degree and experience.

 

[*Exor*]

Er, we've just shown that that isn't true though sjp.

Problem with Manchester is, you can get a degree, but within a few weeks it will get stolen, and all that remains will be a pile of bricks.

/me shrugs.

 

[old.sjp]

OH,

for starters, dick face, i think u are getting Manchester confused with Liverpool . . . . . . .

and Stu-, its OK, hes back to his usual arseheaded self so pls slag him off .


you dont seam to be understanding what iam saying so ill say it again slowly ....

a s a g e n e r a l r u l e , i h a v e f o u n d t h a t m o s t e m p l o y e r s i n M Y a r e a e x p e c t t h i e r e m p l o y e e s t o h a v e a t l e a s t a d e g r e e.

important words - MY AREA MOST EXPECT DEGREE GENERAL RULE

now like i said, most ppl will openly admit that a degree is not really worth anything, but its a simple way of filtering out some applications - sad but a fact.

If you dont have a degree, but you do get your foot in the door, the chances are that you will pretty quicky hit a wall (if you want to progress into management (which i whould hate to do incidentaly) you are fucked).


I mean if you were an employer who whould you pick from -

A)
1 - no experience
2 - degree + no experience

B)
1 - experience
2 - degree + experience

remember that alot of these decesions are made by human resource types who no fuck all about the subject - if you think about it from there perspective, youed pick the guy with the extra qualifications in both cases.

this is not computing specific, ust a general rule, pls remeber a degree isent what it used to be, in all honesty having a degree today, is like having A-Levels a few years ago. If you want to show some academic exelence you need a post grad qualification of some description.

i mean, ffs, my company does nothing flash, but EVERYONE has at least a degree, ~10% have a Masters and there are 4 ppl with doctrates.

also stop arsing arround and admit that there is a lot of snobery out there, you no what i mean, if you havent been to a decent uni its hard work and if youve been to none at all you dont stand a chance.


degree = nice background, well educated with a decent upbringing.
none = failed at school, thicko and common.

might not be nice but its how a lot of ppl luck at it.

 

[old.sjp]

erm, tight basts!

they have removed my extra spaces

 

[Testin da Cable]

serves ya right m8

degree = nice background, well educated with a decent upbringing.
none = failed at school, thicko and common.

I believe I said that [give or take a few words].
It's not always true but it's how ppl [albeit ignorant ones] will view you

-tdc

 

[old.Necro]

My view is that a degree is not necessary required, but if your relativly young, odds are that verifyable experience is going to be limited without one.

 

[old.Alex^]

basicaly

i'm doin a BTEC ND in computer studies, its Ok like, i've just started me first year,

the teachers say, you can do HND, but you can normally just jump to degree, so just jump to a degree,

(btw i haven't arsed reading all the other reply's so if someone has already said this don't bable on)

funding.....

bloody hell, didn't think it was that much

my college wanted £11 (eleven) for me to join this course, and they say its £11 for the HND, but i think thats cause i am 16

 

[*Exor*]

I was reffering to this statement sjp...

the honest truth is employers want both a good degree and experience

Anyway....

What about this scenario (which you seem to "accidentally" ignore):

Experience (let's say 4 years for a decent company, with a proven track record)

or...

degree + no experience.

Who would you chose to code your product?

 

[old.sjp]

no, i dident include that because you are not comparing like with like.

Anyone with a half a brain cell would pick the guy with experience over the new graduate (but beleive it or not, some would pick the grad anyway), that was why i included expeience + quals.

most of this converstaion was from the point of view of getting your foot in the door to get the exp in the first place. this is EASIER to do if you have a degree.

lets be honest its not that simple to walk into a passable job when u dont really have any expeinece (which is what frankie would be doing) sure if u dont mind doing the shity stuff first (like support) you can do it, BUT if you have a degree you will find it far easier to walk out and get a decent job with a passable salary.

and of course it still leaves all the stuck up arseheads which would look down on you because you havent been to uni. it all sucks really



cant end with that, far to negative .....

at least its ALOT easier to get a decent job now, when i graduated in 93 (fuck iam an old bast ) getting a crappy job was hard work let alone breaking into computing (i did physics then decided i wanted to programme)

when i went back and did a masters (stuck on the dole so why no) i finished in 97 and GOD what a big difference! ffs ppl where fighting over me, must of got 5 job offers in the first wk and started work within 10 days of looking (still had another mth to do on the course but who give a fuck ).

also i had a quick glance thro computer weakly last weak and there are bucket fulls of decently paid jobs in manchester (same everywhere i guess ?) tis a much nicer time to be looking for work

 

[old.Paradroid]

mmmm...I got my degree in electrical/electronic engineering in '94 and a post grad in IT in '98.
The electronics degree had oodles of programming from basic and assembly to OO C++. The IT course had Visual Basic'n'C++ ,plus, HTML/Javascript(run of the mill, shaved monkey could do it shit).
I got into this shit cause I used to love programming the old home computers, but, I wanted to know how they worked...so I did the electronics.
Although I specialised in comms (microwaves/antenni shit) and I learned a lot about programming it's the other stuff that employers MIGHT look for. When you do these courses your learning about loads of other stuff that will probably come in handy if you want to have a career instead of just a job.
Yeah 22-28 grand a year is great for only 6-18 months experience programming (i.e. no degree) but what happens at promotion time? Are you experienced in presentations? Are you able to budget and balance finances for large projects?
How's your marketing? Know anything about molecular physics? How's about radiation? Could you mathematically model a 3-D envirnoment? Ok, how about signal processing? How's your Laplace transforms coming along?

Look my point is anyone who put their mind to it could program...my mum could...so could yours.
It's the differnce between being the monkey or the master.
We're all monkey's essentially unless you own the company but your scope for development is greater (with some employers) if you have a relevant degree.

Don't piss around...do the degree, or, do what Bill Gates did...drop out of uni, borrow $60,000 dollars from your dad (a high flying well-known lawyer) cover yourself in KY jelly and squeeze yourself into an opening in the market.
Seems to be working out OK for him.

 

[old.Paradroid]

Yeah and learn to spell propely ...heh...(see above)