HMRC need a kicking

[MYstIC G]

If you guys read this over on El Reg the way I have, methinks we should all sign this petition as it's totally outrageous that HMRC got a kicking in the courts and are now going to simply change the law to suit their purposes.

Maybe you lot might even spread it about a bit as at the end of the day we all hate the tax man.

 

[Draylor]

Um, no, another loophole being closed is a good thing.

Theres no reason why paying your wife to do fuckall to avoid tax should be permitted.

 

[Damini]

Small businesses in this country need every little bit of support they can get. If you want to get tetchy about tax, look at people who buy and sell on properties, rather than small business.

However, e-petitions don't work. They're just there as a pressure valve.

 

[Tom]

Um, no, another loophole being closed is a good thing.

Theres no reason why paying your wife to do fuckall to avoid tax should be permitted.

There's no such thing as a loophole. Why do you think this situation exists in the first place? Its quite legal.

No, what HMRC wants is more money. That's it.

 

[Chilly]

There's no such thing as a loophole.

So by extension all lawmakers are omniscient and make perfect laws?

 

[Ch3tan]

It's a silly law that will hurt lots of small businesses, if the HRMC really wants extra money they should go after big companies that shovel money out of this country.

 

[Tom]

So by extension all lawmakers are omniscient and make perfect laws?

That is an entirely separate argument to what is being discussed here.

The issue is - has anybody broken the law? The answer is no. HMRC do not accept this and want the law changing.

Would a change of the law benefit society as a whole, or HMRC? Since they're a badly run body with powers to shaft whoever they like whenever they like, I'm betting the latter.

 

[Chilly]

No, I was replying to your comment about there being no such thing as a loophole.

 

[dysfunction]

There are loopholes and the goverment continually change the tax laws to prevent them being exploited. People get very creative in finding ways to avoid paying tax. Its almost like a game played by the public and HMRC.

Everytime a large number of the public finds a way to reduce their tax bills the laws are changed.

This is nothing new.

 

[rynnor]

It seems strange that the Taxman gets upset when people use their tax allowances which is what this is about.

Its only usefull if one person doesnt work otherwise its pointless so its helping a lot of families in the uk.

 

[MYstIC G]

However, e-petitions don't work. They're just there as a pressure valve.

Giving up before you begin is the new British identity and it's so negative.

 

[Ch3tan]

She has a point though meg, that site is simply there to make it appear that we have a choice in how the country is run past the voting stage.

 

[Damini]

Giving up before you begin is the new British identity and it's so negative.

Also, e-petitions have refused to answer any of my e-mails demanding evidence that a single decision has been altered as a result of an e-petition. If they worked, you'd think they'd be happy to provide such proof.

I'm not giving in, far from it, I just refuse to give this government credit where none is due. By signing an e-petition, people think they have done something, and then don't feel obliged to kick up a fuss in other ways, which is exactly the reason the government has embraced the process.

 

[rynnor]

I'm not giving in, far from it, I just refuse to give this government credit where none is due. By signing an e-petition, people think they have done something, and then don't feel obliged to kick up a fuss in other ways, which is exactly the reason the government has embraced the process.

You are correct - its also the same with voting - if you think the system is genuinely flawed you should abstain - if the voting levels drop low enough real change may have a chance.

 

[MYstIC G]

Also, e-petitions have refused to answer any of my e-mails demanding evidence that a single decision has been altered as a result of an e-petition. If they worked, you'd think they'd be happy to provide such proof.

I'm not giving in, far from it, I just refuse to give this government credit where none is due. By signing an e-petition, people think they have done something, and then don't feel obliged to kick up a fuss in other ways, which is exactly the reason the government has embraced the process.

Who's giving them credit for anything? This is Steiny at work here. His MySociety site about problem fixing allowed me to get my council to resurface a battered road near me with minimal effort. Something I'll happily admit I would likely not have bothered doing before (anyone who's ever telephoned Croydon Council will know why).

Anyway, the bottom line is that something like this can be used to kick start a process of change, which is no bad thing. Obviously it's not the be all and the end all, as with the above for example I'm now having to kick the council to do the job properly (read: fill all the potholes) which is the struggle.

I think that you're also overlooking a key benefit to this system which is that you can easily get people from all around the country to willingly sign something. Would you take a piece of paper door to door around the whole of the UK? Better yet try to convey your point and get it signed?

Apathy is the core of many a problem in this country. You can abstain from voting in elections all you like but whoever wins the election doesn't care that you didn't vote. All you've done is forfeit your opportunity to try and influence something in a positive manner.

 

[Will]

(read: fill all the potholes)

FillThatHole.org.uk

 

[Damini]

Who's giving them credit for anything? This is Steiny at work here. His MySociety site about problem fixing allowed me to get my council to resurface a battered road near me with minimal effort. Something I'll happily admit I would likely not have bothered doing before (anyone who's ever telephoned Croydon Council will know why).

Anyway, the bottom line is that something like this can be used to kick start a process of change, which is no bad thing. Obviously it's not the be all and the end all, as with the above for example I'm now having to kick the council to do the job properly (read: fill all the potholes) which is the struggle.

I think that you're also overlooking a key benefit to this system which is that you can easily get people from all around the country to willingly sign something. Would you take a piece of paper door to door around the whole of the UK? Better yet try to convey your point and get it signed?

Apathy is the core of many a problem in this country. You can abstain from voting in elections all you like but whoever wins the election doesn't care that you didn't vote. All you've done is forfeit your opportunity to try and influence something in a positive manner.

It was Stieny's baby, and all power to him for setting it up in the first place, but now I honestly believe the e-petition purpose has been tainted. If I could be shown ONE example where a petition on that site had actually changed something then I would reappraise my position, but as it stands I think they have taken something that was extremely positive and noble and turned it into a spin exercise. It reminds me of that scene in Lost, where they keep filling those forms, and putting them in the shoot, only for them to be dumped out in a huge pile in the middle of nowhere. It benefits the government, because people are venting their grievances and get a carthartic impression of having their opinions heard, but without people actually having their opinions matter. This is my problem with the site. There is no limit imposed on it, no number of signings that guarantee that the issue is even considered, no goal to be achieved. It is the illusion of a democratic process run in a completely undemocratic way. I agree with the principle - I object strongly to its execution.

I'm the last person you can accuse of political apathy - I attend political question and answer sessions, I write to my MP and other MPs, and I vote every single time. I simply disapprove strongly of the e-petition system because I believe it is completely worthless. Edit:// this is not the fault of the people who set it up in the first place, but the government who give it the veneer of authority, without actually giving the views expressed there any weight what so ever. This is what is so deceiptful about it.

 

[MYstIC G]

Why is it people are so frustrating? Somebody says "hey lets do this" and instead of saying "sure" or "no" everybody instead spends 2 zillion hours meddling or debating minutia. So fuck it, pay more tax.

 

[Damini]

I didn't mean to upset you Meg. As someone who runs a small company, I'm not tap dancing at the thought of paying more tax, especially as everything is going up in price at the moment. I just think that if you genuinely want to make a change, an e-petition isn't the way to go. A while ago I was signing them left, right and centre, but I guess I've just become jaded.

 

[Tom]

If I could be shown ONE example where a petition on that site had actually changed something then I would reappraise my position, but as it stands I think they have taken something that was extremely positive and noble and turned it into a spin exercise.

While I can't say for certain that the radio microphone crisis (it was a crisis for us guys) was 'solved' by the online petition system, I do feel it must certainly have made some impact:

Radio mic spectrum sell off. News update, background and further information.

(bottom left paragraph).

This result has saved me a hell of a lot of money.