Politics History repeating itself?

[Scouse]

Interesting article - The European Union and the Rhetoric of Immaturity

The author's basic assertion is that Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain are being subjugated like the English were in the 18th century.

The current austerity measures are, in fact, a version of collective punishment, inflicted not so much to control spending and improve economic performance (all indicators clearly show that the economic conditions are worsening in countries where such measures have been implemented), but to force the vast majority of citizenry into submission, poverty, and willingness to work for absurdly low wages

[What they're going through is comparable to the] transition from the Speenhamland System (1795) to the Poor Law Amendment Act of 1834 in England, when earlier welfare provisions were repealed in favour of legislation that endeavoured to convert the British poor into "hungry animals".

Something to think about...

 

[Raven]

What's the other option? Let them get away with not contributing? Free hugs and money to the feckless!

All those countries were quite happy a few years ago, living on credit. Now the bill has dropped through the letter box, they don't like it.

 

[Wij]

The alternatives would be:

a.) Germany benefits greatly from the siingle currency so it should give some of the windfall to those countries that are harmed by it.
b.) They should leave the euro (not easy) and let currency devaluation make them more competitive.

There's significant drawbacks to both but there are alternatives.

 

[Scouse]

I thought the human, not the economic, side of the article was the interesting bit

 

[Raven]

You mean their human greed when times were good? Or do you mean their human unwillingness to accept responsibility for their own actions?

 

[Scouse]

Carry on with your Greece-bashing in the relevant thread if you must. The article is more wide ranging and interesting than that.

 

[Wij]

Will they be forced into prostitution?

 

[Scouse]

Nobody is forced in to prostitution Wij. They love it, the slags.

 

[Wij]

The Irish prozzy boom 2012 will be at least as historic as the property boom, the potato famine and the lurikeen bubble.

 

[Wij]

red haired temptresses after my hard currency

*dribble*

 

[Chilly]

The Irish prozzy boom 2012 will be at least as historic as the property boom, the potato famine and the lurikeen bubble.

I hate lurikeen bubbles! Damn pbaoe

 

[Wij]

I hate lurikeen bubbles! Damn pbaoe

At least one person got the reference

 

[DaGaffer]

Interesting article - The European Union and the Rhetoric of Immaturity

The author's basic assertion is that Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain are being subjugated like the English were in the 18th century.

Something to think about...

OK, thought about it....its rubbish isn't it? Its actually trolling. First of all, every one of those states (and its PIIGS, not PIGS) has been prevailed upon to put their own houses in order, not had a solution imposed from above, and its only the case of Greece where they've simply failed to even try to fix it that a solution has effectively been dictated (even the IMF don't impose the how, just the what). I do agree there's a rhetoric amongst Euro politicians that comes across as incredibly patronising, but I don't think that's anything that's specific to the financial crisis; that's the EU itself, which was designed as a paternalistic system on the French model. Everything the EU does in relation to its member states is autocratic; that's one of the reasons the UK always butts heads with the EU; we're (at least nominally) more inclusive and pluralistic than the European norm.

The interesting thing I took from the article was that it echoed something you said the other day; it castigated EU elites for treating the populations of the PIIGS like children, but in my view there's definitely an argument to say that's how an awful lot of people have behaved. I moaned that people lack the common sense to see you need to take in more tax than you spend, you responded with "people shouldn't be expected to understand that stuff" (to paraphrase). Well guess what, if people can't be arsed to understand that stuff, they're going to get treated like children, especially by an EU that thinks that way about most of its "citizens" in the first place. You can't really have it both ways.

 

[Raven]

At least one person got the reference

Beardo

 

[Scouse]

OK, thought about it....its rubbish isn't it? Its actually trolling.

Ah. I get it. Michael Marder, Ikerbasque Research Professor of Philosophy at the University of the Basque Country, internet troll

 

[DaGaffer]

Ah. I get it. Michael Marder, Ikerbasque Research Professor of Philosophy at the University of the Basque Country, internet troll

All philosophers are trolls, everyone knows that.

 

[Wij]

Oyy!

I have a philosophy degree.

 

[DaGaffer]

case. rested.

 

[Wij]

I'll grind your bones

 

[rynnor]

He may be overstating it but bad things are happening.

The pay ratio between top bosses and their staff is heading to victorian levels.

The recent suggestion by a once prominent conservative that labour laws should be weakened because of the recession (despite uk labour laws being the weakest in europe).

The PMs speech last week that people criticising the excesses of businesses were being 'snobbish' - wtf from silver spoon boy!?!

We are being sacrificed for the benefit of the super rich.

 

[Scouse]

We are being sacrificed for the benefit of the super rich.

This.

 

[andeh]

He may be overstating it but bad things are happening.

The pay ratio between top bosses and their staff is heading to victorian levels.

The recent suggestion by a once prominent conservative that labour laws should be weakened because of the recession (despite uk labour laws being the weakest in europe).

The PMs speech last week that people criticising the excesses of businesses were being 'snobbish' - wtf from silver spoon boy!?!

We are being sacrificed for the benefit of the super rich.

Bad things are indeed happening, but not in the way you perceive it. The west is gradually losing its position of global pre-eminence and with it the ability to elevate even the poorest to levels of 'wealth' well above the global average. It is inevitable living standards within the UK will decline as we're effectively saturated economically and are simply unable to deliver the growth required to keep pace with the upsurge in demand for 'resources' of an ultimately finite nature.

The pay ratio is inconsequential, what matters is that the lowest paid enjoy a reasonable standard of living (by this I mean shelter, sustenance, fair working conditions and free time to do with as you wish, NOT false minima such as car ownership, holidays, flash phone/gadgets and Sky TV), which for the most part they do. It isn't like the lowest ranked employees are living in cages or being forced to work 14+ hours daily nearly every day is it ?

I did not watch/listen to Cameron's speech, but I expect his comments relate to the vilification of high earners ? A country in which envy and false senses of entitlement are rife and where success elevates one to a pariah sounds a fairly grim place to live. It is a shame that on current form, we'll likely arrive there sooner, rather than later.

I like the closing statement, has a whiff of the Socialist Worker to it.

 

[Scouse]

I like the closing statement, has a whiff of the Socialist Worker to it.

Really?

The bitter irony, however, is that the demands for fiscal restraints and rational self-control in the economic realm are posed before governments but not before multinational corporations, banks, or hedge funds. Indeed, the oversight of these economic actors has been gradually reduced, resulting in the global economic crisis, for which ordinary citizens are now expected to pay with their very livelihoods. Irresponsible gambles with derivatives and other nonexistent goods on the global markets do not fall under the heading of unenlightened immaturity, while overspending meant to improve social services, healthcare, and safety nets is seen as irrational. The self-professed guardians of the European legacy fall far short of the Kantian ideal they tout. It is now time to turn the rhetoric of immaturity against them, so as to reveal the double standards and the capriciousness of their logic

Dont see it that way myself.

 

[throdgrain]

Oyy!

I have a philosophy degree.

Sorry but ... lol

 

[rynnor]

It is inevitable living standards within the UK will decline as we're effectively saturated economically

Whut? How can we be 'economically saturated' ? No place on the planet ever has or ever will be saturated economically - we are certainly not at 100% effecient use of our labour or resources and we can always export more.

What will drive living standards down is if as happens now the mega-rich decide to line their pockets by screwing those who work for them.

I work for a company which has done extremely well during the recession with double digit growth every year and fat bonuses to the senior managers but they still see fit to screw their workers as they believe the current climate means they can get away with more.

 

[Embattle]

Generally it is the dividing line between them which is getting a bit too big and rather unfair, although this in no way means that you can pretend your country exists as some sort of individual utopian society that can ignore the rest of the world.

 

[rynnor]

Generally it is the dividing line between them which is getting a bit too big and rather unfair, although this in no way means that you can pretend your country exists as some sort of individual utopian society that can ignore the rest of the world.

Sure but I have no wish to end up back in the 19th century by stealth.

 

[Wij]

Sorry but ... lol

Careful, or I will prove you out of existence

 

[mooSe_]

gonna have me a philosophy degree in a few months

 

[Wij]

gonna have me a philosophy degree in a few months

Or are you?

Wooo-ooo-ooo