Hero Armour - Scale vs RF

[Tyka]

You commented a whole lot of others things, not that it had to do with what i originally said but ok, i read through it all.

Still, his test, no matter how many times he did it, showed that you get hit more wearing RI, second time i'm saying it.

Does not matter how many times he did it, as no1 else have done the test about the miss rate before, but that is enough for me to say that you get hit more wearing RI.

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by Rubric
Seriously though wheres the realism in the game if you miss someone more coz they are wearing a different type of armour.

Depends a bit on how you reason

In for example baldurs gate, using the AD&D second edition rules set. They use Armor Class as a "chance to bypass the armor". Thus the better armor you use, the bigger your chance to not get hit at all, ie the blow landing on the armor completely and you go unharmed.

While the rates of that may or may not be realistic, it depends alot on how you look at it

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by Tyka
Still, his test, no matter how many times he did it, showed that you get hit more wearing RI, second time i'm saying it.

Go study statistics please, it doesnt show that. What it DOES show is that *he* in a limited test was hit more using rf armor. I can assure you that i can do the exact same test and "show" that scale is hit more than rf with such a small sample.

Edit: I am not saying he IS wrong, im saying that the test is small enough that the chance is very big that he is.

I personally havent tested this, so i can NOT know for sure, but his test is in no way, shape or form big enough to "set the rules" so to say.

 

[Tyka]

Originally posted by skadad
you can only guess... from 100ish attacks..

did you actually read the thread? he made over easily over 200 attacks..

and here are some quotes

During testing it seemed pretty obvious, that the attacker missed more frequently against scale. So just for kicks ran 2 more tests....

In 42 attacks against RI there were only 4 misses. After switching to scale there were 8 misses in less than half the attacks.

So it seems (though the sample is a bit small) that in Scale, you will be missed much more frequently.

So all in all.. lets be rough and say around 300 hits, where you get hit more in RI compared to RF, in PvP battles.

If that does not tell you anything then please, wear RI.

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by Tyka
Does not matter how many times he did it, as no1 else have done the test about the miss rate before, but that is enough for me to say that you get hit more wearing RI.

Check the links i provided, i believe at least 3, if not all of them, are on miss rates. And i believe(been a while since i read them) they are on at least 500 attacks each, some on 1500 even.

Edit: Misread you, no, noone has done the test he did, but im going to soon. But anyway, leaving what i wrote because the tests the guy in my links did are quite good info

 

[Tyka]

Originally posted by Tyka
Unless you can show me some other logs that more AF or wearing scale over RI armor does not impact the miss rate, i still think that you will get hit more wearing RI above Scale.

Thank you, bye.

 

[skadad]

I second my post on the top of this page...

so lessay if I cast 2 nukes on a red and both hit..

I get 0% full resists on reds?..
and its a proven fact?....



<>

 

[Tyka]

Originally posted by skadad
I second my post on the top of this page...

so lessay if I cast 2 nukes on a red and both hit..

I get 0% full resists on reds?..
and its a proven fact?....



<>

Not sure what your point is but first you said 100 attacks, now u say 2 nukes? While the thread i showed you, he did roughly 300, i'm sure it says something.

 

[skadad]

usually when they do gallups and stuff .. they do about 1k or more.... of whatever they are testing.... before drawing any conclusions..


1k is a good measurment..

flip a coin...

the more flips you do.. the closer to 50/50 ratio you get...


and also .. who knows exactly how the Daoc Engine Random generator works?.. might be screwed! .... .)

 

[skadad]

I was trying to make a point..

im mainly leaning towards the Daoc Engine Random Generator

DERG from now on.. ! !

 

[Tyka]

I got your point but you did not read what i said, or else you would'nt say that you flip a coin or nuke twice.

No one is arguing with you guys that if he made 1000 tests he would get a clear number, but for me 300+- is a fair number to get some facts. And still you have not showed any facts except for quoting and saying what you think about the matter, while i show you logs that you refuse to read.

 

[skadad]

cutnpasting from vn..

RI vs. CRUSH

Attacks: 63

RI vs. SLASH

Attacks: 64

SC vs. Crush

Attacks: 105

SC vs. Slash

Attacks: 77

In 42 attacks against RI there were only 4 misses. After switching to scale there were 8 misses in less than half the attacks.

so lets see.. ri vs crush 63 attacks..
ri vs slash 64....
sc vs crush 105..
sc vs slash 77
the 42 attacks against ri....
doesnt say what damage type..
lessay they where 42 of both
ri vs crush 105
ri vs slash 106
then adding the halves...
sc vs crush 126
sc vs slash 98

nowhere near 300 attacks with a certain weapontype towards a certain armour...

[Edit: blah blah forgot.. but then if this is the only test.. I guess this is what you have to use ]
[Edit2: calculated wrongly and had to deduct 1 from sc vs slash...]

also.. he uses 1% slash resist on gloves to even out the racial resists to equal...

 

[<Harle>]

totally off-topic, but with enough training you can flip a coin so it always lands on the same side...

 

[skadad]

true...

 

[congin]

I got headache after reading this thread

 

[old.Niljindil]

http://194.237.243.168/hitvsrf.txt

Name-----Attacks---Hits-------------Misses
Spectral--185-------149(80.5%)---35(18.9%)

http://194.237.243.168/htvsscale.txt

Name-----Attacks---Hits-------------Misses
Spectral--159-------142(89.3%)---15 (9.4%)

No, i didnt fake this, im sure its just the randomness in the game causing this.

To get an accurate number i believe you would have to test upwards 3000 or more attacks, which, tbh, i can NOT be arsed to do.

Here you to Tyka, your first lesson in how to lie with non modified 100% true statistics

Edit: After this, i personally have no opinion on what exactly affects misses(except styles to hit bonus and defense penatly, but thats easy to prove and has been proven, check Xanadu_13s tests on VN), but i can only say that its roughly the same all the time.....

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by Tyka
I got your point but you did not read what i said, or else you would'nt say that you flip a coin or nuke twice.

No one is arguing with you guys that if he made 1000 tests he would get a clear number, but for me 300+- is a fair number to get some facts. And still you have not showed any facts except for quoting and saying what you think about the matter, while i show you logs that you refuse to read.

I read them alright, now you go ahead and read mine.

 

[Tyka]

Nilji the logs does not work, but i believe you. I didnt argue over that less tries shows inaccurate numbers sometimes but his was 300 wich made me think the way i do, and your tests wont change this unless you do same amount.

Btw is that PVE or PVP ?

 

[Tyka]

Originally posted by old.Niljindil
To hit rate is based on weapon and armor bonuses as well as class and level, nothing to do with AF fyi.

and

After this, i personally have no opinion on what exactly affects misses

Well i'm glad that your tests at least prooved something, for you

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by Tyka
Nilji the logs does not work

lol, so sorry, forgot to put them up >.<

Working now, thanks for pointing it out t.t

 

[old.Niljindil]

I would like to say, i still am of the opinion that bonus and class is the biggest factors, but what i meant is that i am not longer sure if its the *only* thing affecting miss except for styles.

 

[skadad]

links doesnt work.. and it looks like swedish ip also =/..

anyways... as a zerker I hit casters hard... assassins and archers hard.. plate and scale less hard...

too bad the lurikeens are so damn small and hard to target in the crowdy battlefield..

but like..

a big axe about the same length of a lurikeen should cleave it..

and why are slashing neutral to all alb armor?!...

 

[old.Niljindil]

Oh and....

Originally posted by Tyka
lol you and your game mechanics, not everything is exactly as mythic say you know, here is a test, believe it or not i dont care, i know whats true.

Really really?

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by skadad
links doesnt work.. and it looks like swedish ip also =/..

They should work now.

 

[Tyka]

scale test does not work, and he probably used a non enchanted wpn on the RI test

 

[skadad]

Everquest style.

Diff damtables for diff classes..
diff hptables for diff classes..

 

[old.Niljindil]

Aaaaaanyway, i would like to point out as to the original numbers the damage recieved from slash is 19-25% lower when using rf, as compared to 25%-33% lower from crush when using scale.

Just to cover up the blatant threahijack

The numbers differ depending on what test you look at, mine is the lower ones made by some assumptions on how the game works, the other is from a test with a rather small sample which(could, doesnt mean that it has to) may suffer from statistical flukes. Make your pick for yourselves

 

[<Harle>]

i think I'll use scale because dyes look much better on scale than on RF

 

[llixeraxu]

Ok i put this to my pannel of experts and this is what they said :

Okay Llixeraxu, now the problem of course being that both formula's give very similar figures so testing cannot conclusively prove which one is right as test data could point to either.

So to attempt to prove mine right I put forward a question:

The RAs bunker of faith, and avoid pain are absorb buffs. However they do *not* effect your af at all, unlike say armour of faith which is an AF buff RA. However they greatly decrease the melee dmg one recieves, if the formula's work like your friends say they would have no effect whatsoever (since they do not increase the absorb of each armour piece ndividually which is where the multiplier to base af comes in, but rather give an overall absorb boost) so those RAs would seem to indicate that the formula I used is how absorb factors in..

However, I am quite willing to admit that AF does play some role, and that my formula is incomplete. In my formula (the one i cut an posted) I asume the enemy does 100 dmg before absorb and then resists are applied.. I believe that AF is what decides this 100 base damage (in conjuction with the enemy's weaponskill) but am not 100% sure how.. given how close my own tests have been to the formula I gave it seems the effect is rather minimal/unnoticeable, atlesat when the only difference is the af diff between scale and rf, when you factor in baseline and spec AF buffs the differences becomes more noticeable...


Anyway, it doesn't really matter that much what the formula is, either way it's a case of slash being 19%~ better in rf, crush being high 20s worse, and thrust being 5-10% worse.

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by llixeraxu
Ok i put this to my pannel of experts and this is what they said :

Okay Llixeraxu, now the problem of course being that both formula's give very similar figures so testing cannot conclusively prove which one is right as test data could point to either.

So to attempt to prove mine right I put forward a question:

The RAs bunker of faith, and avoid pain are absorb buffs. However they do *not* effect your af at all, unlike say armour of faith which is an AF buff RA. However they greatly decrease the melee dmg one recieves, if the formula's work like your friends say they would have no effect whatsoever (since they do not increase the absorb of each armour piece ndividually which is where the multiplier to base af comes in, but rather give an overall absorb boost) so those RAs would seem to indicate that the formula I used is how absorb factors in..

However, I am quite willing to admit that AF does play some role, and that my formula is incomplete. In my formula (the one i cut an posted) I asume the enemy does 100 dmg before absorb and then resists are applied.. I believe that AF is what decides this 100 base damage (in conjuction with the enemy's weaponskill) but am not 100% sure how.. given how close my own tests have been to the formula I gave it seems the effect is rather minimal/unnoticeable, atlesat when the only difference is the af diff between scale and rf, when you factor in baseline and spec AF buffs the differences becomes more noticeable...


Anyway, it doesn't really matter that much what the formula is, either way it's a case of slash being 19%~ better in rf, crush being high 20s worse, and thrust being 5-10% worse.

Pretty much sums it up, yes.

About bof and avoid pain, my guess(this is in no way shape or form an actual fact) is that its somehow applied after resists, like the resists, as a pure take whatever damage you should have done and multiply with say 0,8(AP II).

Thats my guess, and cba to test it either >.<