Hero Armour - Scale vs RF

[Event]

Some peeps seem to use rf armour on their heros and champs for rvr...

Thoughts?

 

[Marwolaeth]

There goes one cheap b**tard??

 

[elerand]

Rf is strong vs slash, it is better than scale vs slash weapons and in most cases you get hit by slash dmg weapons. Not sure if the benefit outweighs the penalties for when you get hit by crush weapons but it is cheaper and possibly worth it, I know there are quite a few who do on the US servers.

 

[vintervargen]

thinking about going RF. someone said the magic "resistance" is better with scale since higher absorb i guess, but its not like any alb/mid uses casters anyway.

 

[Rubric]

How much for a full set 99% RF then?

 

[Tyka]

The only good thing about wearing RI instead of Scale is that you get hit for 9% less damage, when someone with a slash weapon hits you.

The downsides are that you get lower AF, you get hit more, less absorb against other weapons.

Not sure if all that is worth it. I used two sets of armor on my hero (RI & Scale), depending on different situations.

 

[Divinia]

not that i feel such a big difference vs. zerkers atm ;p

 

[boni_ofdavoid]

Your roughly evens aginst slash weapons, perhaps slightly better. But what happens when someone hits you with a weapon that is good against RF.... yuk.

 

[llixeraxu]

just a quick cut and paste of the figures :

supposing you'd have been hit for 100 dmg..

100 * ( 1 - absorb ) * ( 1 - resist )

so firstly if you have 0% slash resist from items it's:

SCALE: 100 * ( 1 - .27 ) * ( 1 + .10 ) = 80.3 damage taken
RF : 100 * ( 1 - .19 ) * ( 1 - .10 ) = 72.9 damage taken

now with capped resists of 26% (ignoring racial bonus) it's:

SCALE: 100 * ( 1 - .27 ) * ( 1 - .16 ) = 61.32 damage taken
RF : 100 * ( 1 - .19 ) * ( 1 - .36 ) = 51.84 damage taken

So if you have no resists then vs slash scale is 10.15%~ worse

if you have capped resists then vs slash scale is 18.29% worse

73 /100 equals 73 % damage taken

81/100 equals 81% damage taken

So Scale wearers take 8% more of the inital 100 then the RI user.


Im sticking with scale.

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by llixeraxu
just a quick cut and paste of the figures :

supposing you'd have been hit for 100 dmg..

100 * ( 1 - absorb ) * ( 1 - resist )

so firstly if you have 0% slash resist from items it's:

SCALE: 100 * ( 1 - .27 ) * ( 1 + .10 ) = 80.3 damage taken
RF : 100 * ( 1 - .19 ) * ( 1 - .10 ) = 72.9 damage taken

now with capped resists of 26% (ignoring racial bonus) it's:

SCALE: 100 * ( 1 - .27 ) * ( 1 - .16 ) = 61.32 damage taken
RF : 100 * ( 1 - .19 ) * ( 1 - .36 ) = 51.84 damage taken

So if you have no resists then vs slash scale is 10.15%~ worse

if you have capped resists then vs slash scale is 18.29% worse

73 /100 equals 73 % damage taken

81/100 equals 81% damage taken

So Scale wearers take 8% more of the inital 100 then the RI user.


Im sticking with scale.

Edit: If you cba to read it and trust my math sense, then scroll down to the Conclusion part

Thats wrong, absorb% doesnt work like that, absorb is an AF bonus. In Reality, this is how it works:

27% absorb scale will(before rr5) give you 635 AF without spec AF buff. RF will give you 595.

As it is now the damage you do is multiplied by your weaponskill, and then divided by enemy AF, so a percentual increase or decrease to any of those 2 will scale damage accordingly.

The loss of 40 AF(6,4%) will increase the damage done to you by 6,4%.

Now, with us all knowing how the resists work, lets work out the differences.

Assuming a hit for 500 damage on scale before resists, you would be hit for 500 * 0,84 = 420 damage.

Assuming the very same hit on RF armor the damage would be increased by 6,4% to 500 * 1,064 = 532 damage, and then when resists are brought into the equation you would take 532 * 0,64 = 340,48 damage.

340/420 = 0,81 which means that you will recieve 19% less damage from slashing attacks using RF armor compared to using scale.

However, you will suffer the very same effect but instead of taking less damage, you will take mroe, so the difference will be about 25%(cba to work it out) more damage taken from crush.

Thrust will be the same but with an AF loss, so 6,4% more damage taken.

Conclusion: When using RF instead of scale you will take:
-19% damage from Slashing attacks.
+25%(roughly) damage from crushing attacks.
+6,4% damage from thrusting attacks.

Behold the power of Mathematics™

 

[old.Niljindil]

Please note that the above is based upon some assumptions:
A) The assumption that weaponskill divided by AF is part of the damage formula, which i have been led to believe first by a suspicion on how the entire formula was called by wyrd(you know, the guy with the style thingie page). And also by a few tests made by me on weaponskill.
B) The fact that absorb *is* a pure AF bonus. It may be something else also that i dont know, but i have seen nothing to lead me believe that is so.

p.s The above may not be 100% true, so use at your own risk d.s

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by Tyka
The downsides are that you get lower AF, you get hit more, less absorb against other weapons.

To hit rate is based on weapon and armor bonuses as well as class and level, nothing to do with AF fyi.

 

[old.Niljindil]

Oh and also, the reason why the numbers arent as simple to make out as one would think, is that the higher your resist is, the more every additional point of resist is worth in terms of how much you reduce damage.

To elaborate on the above say you have 50% heat resists and get nuked for 100, now that would be 50 damage taken. Adding another % resist you would take 49 damage. Now 1 point of damage out of 50 damage is 2%, which means that the additional resist reduced damage by 2%, instead of 1% as one would like to think.

The very same thing is what makes the resists on melee differ more than you think, simply because 36% is more than 20% less damage taken than 16%.

 

[old.Niljindil]

And sorry if this is confusing, but english aint my first language >.<

 

[old.Niljindil]

Shameless bump ;d i did soo much work! t.t

 

[-Nuked-]

you so right imo nilj nice work

 

[Spamb0t]

tbh... i didnt read it.

 

[llixeraxu]

go crawl back under your stone poin dexter ;p.. egg head

 

[llixeraxu]

Im gonna pick a hole in it somehow.. just you see..

 

[Tyka]

Originally posted by old.Niljindil
To hit rate is based on weapon and armor bonuses as well as class and level, nothing to do with AF fyi.

lol you and your game mechanics, not everything is exactly as mythic say you know, here is a test, believe it or not i dont care, i know whats true.

http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=47119845&start=47121204

read through it and make sure you understand, before replying, kthx.

Edit: Err. To hit have nothing to do with class/level, incase you did not know that was removed a long time ago, when a low level have the same chance to hit a higher level opponent, thought you knew this.

 

[old.Tzeentch]

damn swedes.

 

[Rubric]

Originally posted by Rubric
How much for a full set 99% RF then?

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by Tyka
lol you and your game mechanics, not everything is exactly as mythic say you know, here is a test, believe it or not i dont care, i know whats true.

http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=47119845&start=47121204

read through it and make sure you understand, before replying, kthx.

Edit: Err. To hit have nothing to do with class/level, incase you did not know that was removed a long time ago, when a low level have the same chance to hit a higher level opponent, thought you knew this.

That you bring up "as mythic says" when speaking about me is low to say the least, they dont know how their own game works, period.

My comment on misses being based on level was pointed towards PvE.

Also, its generally known that wardens miss a hell of a lot more than heroes. Its also been proven than the loss of weaponskill has nothing to do with that. Go read Xanadu_13s tests on VN.

And lastly, that test you pointed me towards, is that some kind of joke? Youre seriously telling me that he can tell from a test on 60 attacks that the miss rates are this and that? He should go study statistics before making silly tests misleading people.

Any test done on percentual chances should include *at least* 500 attacks. I have gotten 11 out of 12 spells resisted on an orange. That does in no way mean that if the next 12 spells land then i land 50% of the spells. Which is basically what he is saying.

For reference, here are a few links to "real" tests while they dont all have something to do with this topic in particular:
http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=50967778&start=51102515
http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=51146320&start=51148438
http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=51171343&start=51205625
http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=51233777&start=51421765

 

[Tyka]

Nilji, first of all he asked for the difference in rvr, not pve or i would'nt have quoted you. What you point out about the difference in pve is irrelevant.

Second, those tests i showed shows that he DOES miss more frequently on scale. When it comes to testing that matter, his tests shows that its true.

Unless you can show me some other logs that more AF or wearing scale over RI armor does not impact the miss rate, i still think that you will get hit more wearing RI above Scale.

 

[Rubric]

Forgetting all about the game in real life RF being lighter than scale would mean you could evade more thus meaning you missed more against RF

Seriously though wheres the realism in the game if you miss someone more coz they are wearing a different type of armour.

 

[skadad]

the point is that you cant draw any conclusions from that small number of attacks...

you can only guess... from 100ish attacks..

id say 500-1000 the closer to 1000 the better to even begin to draw facts from the tests...


it was all very clear from the post by niljindil..


swedes are teh very pwn...

 

[skadad]

rubric:

Shiny plates and scales reflects the light if outside thus making it harder to hit due to blindness of course!..

how could you miss!

 

[old.Niljindil]

Also, to-hit comments aside, that test is flawed in that he only has 1% resists on his equipment.

Check that wonderful test again and see my reply, thinking for yourself is not a bad thing.

Read my posts, understand them and then judge for yourself.

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by Tyka
Unless you can show me some other logs that more AF or wearing scale over RI armor does not impact the miss rate, i still think that you will get hit more wearing RI above Scale.

Since you really seem like you want to know, ill test it later today.

But his sample rates on miss rates were just plain silly(the addendum test). he said 42 attacks, and then half of that? I mean, seriously, i can get 50% misses in 20 attacks easy, but i wont claim my miss rate is high because of that

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by Tyka
Nilji, first of all he asked for the difference in rvr, not pve or i would'nt have quoted you.

Ok my bad, should have made it clear in the first post.