Help with Thurgurist

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Krissy

Guest
Originally posted by pbuck


47 wind gives the same damage cap(the maximum possible damage of the nuke on any monster)on the 45 air nuke as with 45 air, however when nuking a mob with the 45 lvl nuke for less dmg than the dmg cap(which happens on green blue yellow con mobs etc)EVERY extra point above 45 air will add some dmg to the nuke.So with 47 air u will nuke an enemy 50 lvl player for slightly more dmg than with 45.So these points are not wasted.
About the aoe root...
With 14 ice u get this..
10 Field of Slush 99% 2.5 sec. 6P Enemy 350 23 sec
Next area of affect root is in 16 ice.Crowdcontrol spells and other castable and instant effects work in rvr in a specific way.The lower the level of the effect the easiest for the enemy players to resist it.
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with due respect respec man, 45+5 air is no different to 47+3, and the difference between 45+14 and 47+14 is so tiny its not worth mentioning.

and high spec over 50 makes little noticable difference in RvR, i've tested this myself with ~60 air compared to 50, and that +11 air items are better spent elsewhere.

sure you maybe able to empty your powerbar on a lord or legion and hit for something but against a player in RvR 50 air from 45+5 or 47+3 is exactly the same damage, as is anything over 50. as far as i am aware 49 spec air (according to teoz) raises his base damage cap without RAs.

50 spec air is an increased damage cap over 45, by ~20 (629(45) to ~640(49)) damage. but i was refering to spending two levels OVER 45 to get to 47, so talking about 50 spec air is off topic.

DONT spec 47 air, go 45 air and put the spares in ice, and listen to someone who actually has had the spec for 50 levels instead of someone who respeced. with resists going well over the top come spellcraft, and with hibs having heaps of spirit resists from racial, warden buffs, and the enchanter RA, having an extra CC WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE more than ~10 extra "potential" damage. another ~30sec CC (which doesnt have falloff) is well worth it, especially against hib tanks.

as for the resists of low level CC spells that is nonsense. my level 10 AE root has never resisted once in RvR. the other air theurgs i know with this spec say the same too.

Do u really think that there is such a difference to these two specs that classifies one as better ?
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the fact that 47 air gives sod all benefits over 45 (bar you can get 62 air instead of 60 with items and RR, big deal?), and going 45 air spares in ice gives you an AE root which DOESNT resist and CAN SAVE YOUR GROUP, i think the obvious answer is get the AE root.
 
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cHodAX

Guest
Originally posted by Krissy


with due respect respec man
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Here we go again, more sneaky little digs and insults <sigh> If I could be bothered I would argue but you never listen anyway and frankly I can't be bothered. Pbuck's spec and skill speak for themselves, Hibs and Mids will testify to that.
 
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cHodAX

Guest
Originally posted by k9awya



It dosen't above 51

been tried and tested etc.

51 == 60

shrug
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Tested and tested again, it does make a difference. Damage cap is not raised as such but try nuking without all your +wind items and then with them on. People with 65 Wind inc items typically nuke for 50-60 dmg consistently higher in RvR than they do with Wind at 50. Overspeccing does make a difference but as Mythic have stated on many occasions 'it gives diminishing returns' so when Pbuck reaches rr10 and has 70 Wind the difference over having 65 Wind will be tiny and he can drop some +wind items in favour of others.
 
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pbuck

Guest
Originally posted by Krissy


with due respect respec man, 45+5 air is no different to 47+3, and the difference between 45+14 and 47+14 is so tiny its not worth mentioning.

and high spec over 50 makes little noticable difference in RvR, i've tested this myself with ~60 air compared to 50, and that +11 air items are better spent elsewhere.

sure you maybe able to empty your powerbar on a lord or legion and hit for something but against a player in RvR 50 air from 45+5 or 47+3 is exactly the same damage, as is anything over 50. as far as i am aware 49 spec air (according to teoz) raises his base damage cap without RAs.

50 spec air is an increased damage cap over 45, by ~20 (629(45) to ~640(49)) damage. but i was refering to spending two levels OVER 45 to get to 47, so talking about 50 spec air is off topic.

DONT spec 47 air, go 45 air and put the spares in ice, and listen to someone who actually has had the spec for 50 levels instead of someone who respeced. with resists going well over the top come spellcraft, and with hibs having heaps of spirit resists from racial, warden buffs, and the enchanter RA, having an extra CC WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE more than ~10 extra "potential" damage. another ~30sec CC (which doesnt have falloff) is well worth it, especially against hib tanks.

as for the resists of low level CC spells that is nonsense. my level 10 AE root has never resisted once in RvR. the other air theurgs i know with this spec say the same too.



the fact that 47 air gives sod all benefits over 45 (bar you can get 62 air instead of 60 with items and RR, big deal?), and going 45 air spares in ice gives you an AE root which DOESNT resist and CAN SAVE YOUR GROUP, i think the obvious answer is get the AE root.
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In my last post I said clearly i specced for the last aoe mezz which could ONLY mean that i had at least 49 wind(i have 50).Why do u tell me to respec from 47 wind to 45 since i am not even 26 earth/47 wind?And why do u tell me that there is no signifact difference between 45 and 47 spec in wind when i have already said that too in my post?
Difference between 50 total points in wind(that is including bonus from items and realm rank bonuses)and 60 total points is around 20 points of damage.I want these extra points in damage they DO make difference for me.
Clarification for u:you CANT nuke legion.I cant believe u didnt know this but oh well...And yes 45+5 in wind magic is the same as 47+3(what is ur point here?).Above 50 however each extra point in wind magic will add around 2-2.5 points of damage to ur nuke(of course only if the target isnt already nuked for cap damage).Im not sure i understand what u mean by saying that 49 spec air raises the base damage cap.The damage cap of the nuke depends on1)the lvl of the nuke2)the realm ability mastery of magery.The damage cap is irrelevant to how high u have specced in wind.
And again...the increase in damage when speccing in 50 air instead of 45 can ONLY be noticed when the target is already nuked for less than the damage cap.The numbers u are giving in ur example are definately not damage caps(without any points in mastery of magery the dmg cap of the lvl 45 air spell is 628 dmg)
Its clear that our arguement is which of the two is most useful a)2 more points in wind or b) a lvl 10 ,23 sec lasting, aoe root. Ive already said that 2 more points in wind wont make significant difference i also said the same thing about the lvl 10 aoe root which in ur account is the "killer" and of great use in rvr.And although u used itfor 50 lvls i did the same for 50 lvls too and 5 realm ranks before i respecced to wind(i was earth theu with 29 ice and the 20 lvl version of the spell for both pve and rvr ).Ive already stated the reasons why i wouldnt be arsed to use this lvl 10 cc spell in rvr in my previous post.Posting them again would be pointless.
Pbuck Ex-Theurgist
Wizard with aoe mezz speed and stun pets
 
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old.Mitsu

Guest
Pretty sure Air over 50 gives you a higher cap on your nukes.
 
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cHodAX

Guest
Originally posted by old.Mitsu
Pretty sure Air over 50 gives you a higher cap on your nukes.
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Nope damage cap over 50 is not affected in anyway, it is pure variance and effect when speccing over 50. Hence nuking a rr4 for 462 with 45+7 and then nuking the same person for 478 when 45+14. Small increase but it all adds up. The higher you over spec the more effective your nuke is in RvR, however as started before it is a matter of diminshing returns and anything over 63 seems to make so little difference as to be on the verge of being pointless.
 
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andyr00barb

Guest
Originally posted by old.cHodAX


Nope damage cap over 50 is not affected in anyway, it is pure variance and effect when speccing over 50.
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Is this true of melee skills such as staff/slash etc as well as nuking?

A bit off topic but what the hell, this thread seems to have been hijacked a bit anyways.
 
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- Pathfinder -

Guest
Spell caps are not affected by your spec level - they're determined by the delved damage and MoM level. Speccing post 50 WILL increase damage on lv 50s (provided you don't debuff everyone so you cap regardless), but if that relatively minor damage increase is worth using real spec points for, that's up to you.
 
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cHodAX

Guest
Originally posted by Sandariel ^^
<throws random links at the thread> ^^

http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=42345987&replies=23 <-- "Topic: UPDATED The final damage test for +skill and int!"

http://mortal.peril.org/jack/daoc/damagecalc.php <-- spell dmg calculator, dunno if it's correct, but it's pretty cool ^^

<runs off again>
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Sand that post is in conflict with many other reports and logs other people have posted. Also no one knows the formula on which Mythic base spell damage and also take into account the resist code has reportedly been tweaked. My own tests reveal a 4% dmg drop off if I get rid of my +11 wind items which exactly in line with what Pbuck has reported. Until Mythic actually clarify how the system works we will end up going round and round on this arguement. The only thing Mythic have said is that overspeccing gives 'diminishing returns' and we are supposed to work the rest out for ourselves :(
 
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cHodAX

Guest
Originally posted by andyr00barb


Is this true of melee skills such as staff/slash etc as well as nuking?

A bit off topic but what the hell, this thread seems to have been hijacked a bit anyways.
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Afaik melee works in a different way from spellcasting. A full 50 weapon spec puts you on the full damage table which can fall anywhere between 100%-150% of damage cap, that is what I have read anyway and it would indicate that overspeccing gives max damage and tighter variance but working the math Mythic use for damage is mindboggling and mostly guess work.

Here is what I based the above on :

'* You actually get MORE weapskill per spec point over 50 than per spec point under 50. Roughly double. (This is bigtime against everything that Mythic has ever said. But believe me, its the only way the data I have fits) (edit: I suspect it may be to compensate for the fact that below 50, you get the added benefit of increased damage from reduced variance) '

taken from here just scroll down to the post by Zubey
 
K

Krissy

Guest
Originally posted by pbuck
Why do u tell me to respec from 47 wind to 45 since i am not even 26 earth/47 wind?
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i did not, i said that your "recommendation" of 47/26 was not the best, imo, as putting 2 more levels in wind over 45 is a complete waste of points.

put them in ice for a ~30sec AE root which will most likely save your group more in RvR than 5 extra damage you may potentially do by having +2 wind spec.

i know you are not 47 wind, as i said before this was nothing about anything above 47 wind, but why not to spec 47/26 as you recommended, but go 45/26/14.....

and FYI, legion can be hit, i've done it, Mysteh has done it, walker has done it, and heres a screenshot of him being PBAED:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/reing/daoc/legion_pbae.jpg
 
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k9awya

Guest
Originally posted by old.cHodAX


Tested and tested again, it does make a difference. Damage cap is not raised as such but try nuking without all your +wind items and then with them on. People with 65 Wind inc items typically nuke for 50-60 dmg consistently higher in RvR than they do with Wind at 50. Overspeccing does make a difference but as Mythic have stated on many occasions 'it gives diminishing returns' so when Pbuck reaches rr10 and has 70 Wind the difference over having 65 Wind will be tiny and he can drop some +wind items in favour of others.
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I did say 51 not 50.
 
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k9awya

Guest
Originally posted by old.cHodAX


And that makes a difference in what way exactly?
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because that's the way it works

the way it was coded

it's not like a puzzle or anything
 
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cHodAX

Guest
Originally posted by k9awya




because that's the way it works

the way it was coded

it's not like a puzzle or anything
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But you still don't clarify what you mean and only point out that I made a mistake in saying 50 and not 51. The links above are proof that speccing above 50 does give benefit, sure those figures are disputed but many of the teamleaders are saying those numbers and theorys are correct.
 
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k9awya

Guest
Originally posted by old.cHodAX


But you still don't clarify what you mean and only point out that I made a mistake in saying 50 and not 51. The links above are proof that speccing above 50 does give benefit, sure those figures are disputed but many of the teamleaders are saying those numbers and theorys are correct.
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yes

51 is above 50

above <and including>52 theres no point

they did some test and got lucky numbers, at 51 your variance is as good as at 60 and the cap dosent change.

pps. if you got time look through every grab bag on herald, says it there somewhere
 
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onesmegger

Guest
urgers

Well nice to see - as pbuck says all the comments from the air wizzies with run speed....

As for me?? traditional 3 spec theurgist here

35 Air
32 Earth
25Ice

what do I get ?
Air second highest nuke and 19 second mezz
Earth 10 second blade turn reasonable speed debuff
Ice snare/nuke and 30 second aoe root

but add on all points from items and realm ranks and i get to
very roughly 48 Air 43 Earth and 37 Ice.
What does that add to - little variance and lower power cost across ALL spell casting, with a reasonable focus satff - best 3spec is form the barrows I am casting even the 50 level ice nuke without a major power drain, I can run pbt in RvR and nuke and yes have even managed to mezz afull group of hippies ( well onlyonce but ......).
What else does this spec add ? ALL THREE PETS at highest level - maybe not the greatest help in RvR at the moment but I have taken down a RR5L7 ( from my RR2 level) using pets and just one nuke. I get the chance to swap from air to ice if getting resists, etc etc.
I cannot nuke as fast as damaging as a full air urger but ...... in my humble opinion ..... the sheer utikity of the three spec more than overcomes this and if you read the theurger TL reports ====
how many solo specs will be wanting to respecc if Abaddon gets anywhere near the improvements to class he is working for !!!

Just had to add my bit there for the generalist. AND YES I KNOW, full spec is the way to go for a damage class but I see us ( Urgers ) as so much more than just a nuke bot !


Ana
 
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cHodAX

Guest
The 30% snare on the ice nuke is shite and worthless imho.
 
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Dook_Pug

Guest
Just wait until 1.54 when spell resists are based on spell level.

Try hitting level 50's with level 30 spells...

/point
/laugh
/dance

Muhaha
 
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k9awya

Guest
Originally posted by Dook_Pug
Just wait until 1.54 when spell resists are based on spell level.

Try hitting level 50's with level 30 spells...

/point
/laugh
/dance

Muhaha
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Dosen't actually make a difference

lvl 25 nearsight hit as much as it did before, and hit as much as a lvl 47 nuke.

a lvl 1 nuke hit more than 70% of the time

aai testing stuff pwns

also went into duel with a lvl 13 healer who managed to mezz and stun without either resisting, cool.
 
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Dook_Pug

Guest
Originally posted by k9awya


Dosen't actually make a difference

lvl 25 nearsight hit as much as it did before, and hit as much as a lvl 47 nuke.

a lvl 1 nuke hit more than 70% of the time

aai testing stuff pwns

also went into duel with a lvl 13 healer who managed to mezz and stun without either resisting, cool.
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I've played a 50 Enchanter on Andred, US PvP and I can assure you it does make a difference.
 
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k9awya

Guest
Originally posted by Dook_Pug


I've played a 50 Enchanter on Andred, US PvP and I can assure you it does make a difference.
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read my post please, i didnt just play a char and think back "oh yeah this spell resisted etc etc"

i actually logged in /duel challenge a thane and cast a lot of low lvl spells on him
 
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Dook_Pug

Guest
And...?

You duelled (AFAIK duels are subject to a different set of combat rules), and I play a char that uses various lower level aswell as higher level spells.

I noticed a succinct difference in spell resists from one patch to another. So has almost every mage that has played either side of 'that' patch.
 
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