Advice Heating.

[old.user4556]

Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

 

[Raven]

Just for those somehow getting into an argument over efficiency, here is something from Energy Saving Trust:



In my mind the whole argument is moot, in most electrical systems the produced by product and thus inefficiency is heat but since the primary requirement is heat then this is irrelevant.

Nah, they say 100% efficient but everything loses energy in the conversion process...well not lose energy but the energy goes elsewhere, other forms of energy. There is no way on earth to convert 100% of electrical energy into heat energy, there just isn't.

It's pedantic (extremely!) but correct

 

[old.user4556]

Well Jesus turned water into wine, so it's clearly possible to put no energy in and convert water into an alcoholic substance.

 

[Scouse]

It's pedantic (extremely!) but correct

Yes @Raven - in this case the energy that gets lost in the conversion process gets lost - as heat...

 

[Raven]

No, not all of it, not 100% of it.

(and I am not going to get into a 5 page argument over it, because I have better things to do)

 

[Scouse]

No, not all of it, not 100% of it.

I'm not interested in a 5 page argument, I'd just like a one-liner which tells us what else the lost energy gets converted into - and I promise not to even post afterwards

 

[Tom]

It's almost as though some people don't know what they're talking about.

 

[Raven]

I know right, basic physics dictate that you cannot convert 100% of electrical energy into heat energy.

Even without the bits that monitor the performance of the unit, the lights, the PCB etc it will only ever be 99.something% efficient.

 

[old.user4556]

It's almost as though some people don't know what they're talking about.

Are you disputing my Jesus story?

 

[Scouse]

I know right, basic physics dictate that you cannot convert 100% of electrical energy into heat energy.

Fine. To what else does the energy get converted to then?

Just a one line answer and I'll leave you alone

 

[Raven]

If it makes the slightest of sound, then its electrical energy to kinetic energy to sound energy. Even if it vibrates, even slightly, that is energy coming out that isn't heat.

Does it have a water pump? That's not heat energy output either, its kinetic (with a little sound)

 

[Tom]

Actually G I think transubstantiation is almost certainly more plausible than some people here ever admitting they don't know what they're talking about.

 

[Hawkwind]

look, it was a comment about Marketing BS vs Physics and reality. There is no such thing as 100% energy conversion - close to it certainly but there are losses even sending electrons down a wire.

 

[Raven]

Actually G I think transubstantiation is almost certainly more plausible than some people here ever admitting they don't know what they're talking about.

I know, right.

Some people even claim that you can convert electrical energy into heat energy with zero other energy byproduct. Its almost as if they didn't bother with GCSE science. The other energy output has to come from somewhere, or you are in the realms of perpetual motion.

 

[Scouse]

How long would you have to shout at a cup of coffee to heat it up?

There is no such thing as 100% energy conversion - close to it certainly but there are losses even sending electrons down a wire.

This is true Hawkwind. The energy losses of sending electrons down wires manifest themselves as radiated heat...

 

[Raven]

lol, if you want to go that far then you might as well say the output is 0% efficient as all the heat energy eventually ends up as potential energy or kinetic energy.

Grasping at straws much?

The marketing claim is that you get 100% electrical to heat conversion, which simply isn't true from a physics point of view. Which was the (pedantic, but no less valid) point.

 

[Tom]

look, it was a comment about Marketing BS vs Physics and reality. There is no such thing as 100% energy conversion - close to it certainly but there are losses even sending electrons down a wire.

Why have you ignored my question to you?

 

[Scouse]

which simply isn't true from a physics point of view

But it is? Electrical impedence, sound, all adds up to increasingly energetically vibrating atoms in the house.

Heat = vibrating atoms.

Over time things are going to cool down - it's not a closed system - but the statement that 100% of the electricity gets converted into heat is true because 100% of the electrical energy ends up increasing energy in the system.

Gas is still cheaper tho.

 

[Tom]

Why don't we put the heater on a treadmill to see if it'll take off.

 

[Raven]

But it is? Electrical impedence, sound, all adds up to increasingly energetically vibrating atoms in the house.

Heat = vibrating atoms.

Gas is still cheaper tho.

Which for the most part eventually ends up being stored chemical energy (potential energy)

Using that logic, electrical heating is 100% efficient at converting stored potential energy into stored potential energy, generally as 100% electrical energy > 99% heat > potential energy and 1% "other, kinetic, light, whatever" > potential energy.

 

[Hawkwind]

Why have you ignored my question to you?

because it was answered already.

 

[Scouse]

Which for the most part eventually ends up being stored chemical energy (potential energy)

Doesn't go back into chemical energy - a chemical reaction needs to take place for that to happen. It gets radiated out of the house into the surrounding area as heat energy. Eventually most of it gets radiated back out into space (or we'd boil in the suns positive energy contribution).

But again - you're describing a house "cooling down" -and that's an argument that has no bearing on the fact that 100% of the electrical energy gets converted into heat (through electrical impedence or sound).

What happens after the heating is done (the whole thing we're talking about) is irrelevant.

 

[Scouse]

I love his childlike enthusiasm.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pYRn5j7oI

 

[Raven]

As is the kinetic energy getting converted into heat. Even then all that heat going out to space will at some point get converted into chemical potential energy at some point.

Anyway, this is fucking stupid. Fin

 

[Scouse]

all that heat going out to space will at some point get converted into chemical potential energy at some point.

You seem to be unaware that there are other forms of potential energy than chemical.

 

[Job]

Yes they are 100% efficient because no heat leaves the building, except maybe the extra load on your feed in from the street, but that's before the meter...so who gives fuk.
It's also worth pointing out that A rated boilers are only that good after a while...if you run a bath...the first 5 mins they are no better than old boilers.

 

[Hawkwind]

Doesn't go back into chemical energy - a chemical reaction needs to take place for that to happen. It gets radiated out of the house into the surrounding area as heat energy. Eventually most of it gets radiated back out into space (or we'd boil in the suns positive energy contribution).

But again - you're describing a house "cooling down" -and that's an argument that has no bearing on the fact that 100% of the electrical energy gets converted into heat (through electrical impedence or sound).

What happens after the heating is done (the whole thing we're talking about) is irrelevant.

But the purpose of the boiler is to heat the water not radiate heat to the surrounding air close to the boiler. Not like you need that heat on a warm summers day

 

[Tom]

because it was answered already.

Where? Oh, you mean Scouse and Emb answered it. Fair enough.

 

[sayward]

Night Storage heaters are really expensive to run and don't provide enough heat for anything. wouldn't touch them, modern or not , with a barge pole. Daughter ignored me and got a flat with them and ended up using fan heaters instead.