Hard tank comparison

[Raven]

This was posted in an alb thread but thought it would be better here, also added Warrior.
Note these are for non buffed, non SC'd Armsman Warriors and Hero's.

Base stats
assuming 10 str 10 dex 10 con at creation

Briton Arms: 110 str 98 con 80 dex 70 qui 1088 Hits
Celt Hero: 115 str 93 con 85 dex 60 qui 1088 Hits
Norse Warrior: 125 str 103 con 75 dex 1132 Hits

Not sure on the HP figures, thats what the calc said but i would imagine the briton arms to be slightly higher due to the higher con.

Weapon Skill
Using the above stats and 50 in 1h. unbuffed, un SC'd hero and arms.

Armsman: 858
Hero: 875
Warrior: 949

Spec
Hero speccing 50 shield 50 blades 28 parry
Arms speccing 50 shield 50 slash 28 parry
Warrior speccing 50 Shield 50 weapon 28 parry
The same, except dont armsman auto train? not sure on that and ofc warriors have the clear advantage of having 2h and 1h from just in 1 type

With most tanks using artifact weapons they are only using 1 damage type so the argument of Hib 2h coming in crush or slash for 1 spec line is pretty much dead.

Armour
Armsman: Plate, strong vs slash (the most common damage type)
Hero: Scale weak to slash.
Warrior: Chain strong vs slash

From this you can see that a warrior is the "best" where a Hero and Armsman fall behind. I did this because Arms always seem to be complaining about how they see thier class to be gimped but imo they are the same as heros with the exception on moose on a hero.

 

[TeaSpoon]

I did this because Arms always seem to be complaining about how they see thier class to be gimped but imo they are the same as heros with the exception on moose on a hero

So the same, but without a defining and very handy feature.

Ergo, that would conclude that Hero's are the same as Armsmen, only better.

So:

Warrior > Hero > Armsman.

Thankyou, and goodnight.

 

[Raven]

you have better armour in every way, resistent to the most common damage type, higher absorb therefore high af in place of an ability that can only be used once every half an hour for a 50% heal

 

[Kalba]

you have better armour in every way, resistent to the most common damage type, higher absorb therefore high af in place of an ability that can only be used once every half an hour for a 50% heal

Well. In theory you're right. Arms is better than a hero in a way.

Then again... in LW spec there is a very good style called annihilation, and a hero doesnt have to doublespec like an armsman does.

When it comes to grouping, how many arms you see in groups and how many heros, compare.

Warriors are the best, they just... have most utility. An Arms has to choose between shield or 2h. a Hero must choose with high Shield/1h or 2h and so on.

Warrior must... choose not to spec throwing?

 

[TeaSpoon]

you have better armour in every way, resistent to the most common damage type, higher absorb therefore high af in place of an ability that can only be used once every half an hour for a 50% heal

Erm, I know most people laugh it off, but the resist is just unlucky, but the fact that you get evade one, albeit seemingly worthless, counters the plate argument.

 

[Yurka]

Think Plate is resistant to thrust..

Armsmen do autotrain in melee, so you wanna start with crush i think...

And id rather have evade than plate, would get to use DF then :>

Warrior >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hero >>>>>> Armsmen

 

[Raven]

50 pole 42 shield 39 slash/blunt whatever (+ auto train) i am sure i heard somewhere arms get auto train.
With the phalanx chain they get the choice of a 30 sec odd snare or a 9 second stun as the 2nd part of the chain, i would love a 30 second 100% snare tbh. amy slash in the 1h spec line, one of the best anytimes around.

50 LW 42 shield 34 blades 20 parry (my spec)
Anhi at 50 spec which is ofc very nice for people running away, frontal assualt which is a 19 second snare and very hard to land in group rvr (nobody should be standing toe to toe vs a hard tank) next to useless 1h styles.

 

[Kagato]

Armour
Armsman: Plate, strong vs slash (the most common damage type)
Hero: Scale weak to slash.
Warrior: Chain strong vs slash

Plate armour has never been resistant to Slash, it is only resistant to thrust, which is soooooo useful, sorry but this is another way Armsman lose. Plate is strong to thrust, neutral to slash and weak vs crush.

if you want to confirm this look here

 

[Kagato]

50 pole 42 shield 39 slash/blunt whatever (+ auto train) i am sure i heard somewhere arms get auto train.
With the phalanx chain they get the choice of a 30 sec odd snare or a 9 second stun as the 2nd part of the chain, i would love a 30 second 100% snare tbh. amy slash in the 1h spec line, one of the best anytimes around.

50 LW 42 shield 34 blades 20 parry (my spec)
Anhi at 50 spec which is ofc very nice for people running away, frontal assualt which is a 19 second snare and very hard to land in group rvr (nobody should be standing toe to toe vs a hard tank) next to useless 1h styles.

Where on earth are you getting these weird numbers from?

Armsmen auto train in slash and thrust.

Phalanx opens up to Revenge, a 9 second stun OR Aegis, a 12 second snare, 30 seconds 100% snare lol where the hell did you get this? its a heavy 12 second snare that is barely noticed and nobody ever uses it because they'd rather land the stun. When they changed these styles they totally ruined aegis by making it osolete in comparison to revenge so our level 50 style is wasted.

If your going to make comparisons you need to do a little more homework.

 

[TeaSpoon]

50 pole 42 shield 39 slash/blunt whatever (+ auto train) i am sure i heard somewhere arms get auto train.
With the phalanx chain they get the choice of a 30 sec odd snare or a 9 second stun as the 2nd part of the chain, i would love a 30 second 100% snare tbh. amy slash in the 1h spec line, one of the best anytimes around.

50 LW 42 shield 34 blades 20 parry (my spec)
Anhi at 50 spec which is ofc very nice for people running away, frontal assualt which is a 19 second snare and very hard to land in group rvr (nobody should be standing toe to toe vs a hard tank) next to useless 1h styles.

Its harder to land a 2 style chain when they're running like fook from you than you think

And thats a 50% snare, 100% is a root +1%

 

[Raven]

i got them from the character builder here , mis read the movement reduction for snare.

but even so, i fail to see why Armsman see themselves to be so inferior when it really isnt that bad, you are a meat shield so have the best hard tank armour. the hib hard tank (hero) has possibly the worst armour for the job.

 

[Kagato]

Its simply matter of groupability, heros can be offensive or defensive, armsmen have to choose and the defensive position is already taken by the paladin who can also give chants and endurance and do a better job, offensive, mercs do a better job too, theres simply no reason to group an Armsman.

Heros can be offensive and defensive as they like and do a better job at least of the defensive, with moose a firby hero takes twice as long or longer to take down then an armsman would, I agree slash weak armour sucks, but then again how many hib and mid tanks spec crush for the sole purpose of taking down plate tanks quicker? And we're only neutral vs Slash as it is so we don't fair much better then heros either, we're only resistant to thrust which is good vs hmmmmm nightshades maybe?

 

[NetNifty]

No, paladins are the "meat shields" of alb, they have higher AF and the same armor as us, aswell as chants to reduce dmg they take. Mercenaries are the melee dmg dealers of alb, and we have to spend double spec points to do anywhere near comparable damage to them. Armsman have nothing that can't be done better by someone else, with less spec pts and more utility.

 

[Skaven]

No, paladins are the "meat shields" of alb, they have higher AF and the same armor as us, aswell as chants to reduce dmg they take. Mercenaries are the melee dmg dealers of alb, and we have to spend double spec points to do anywhere near comparable damage to them. Armsman have nothing that can't be done better by someone else, with less spec pts and more utility.

Hit the nail right on the head.
Armsmen don't have a ''home''. What would you rather have in a group - paladin with end regen/chants and plate, or a armsman with just plate.
Know what i'd choose everytime.

 

[Raven]

The thing is you have to have a pally in group for the chants, just like a hib group has to have a bard. The point i am trying to make is, that if you look at the 2 classes (hero and arms) there really isnt much of a difference, the hero's job as a high shield specced block bot is not as important with bodyguard, BMs are the offensive hib tanks.

One thing we can all agree with, it looks like we are all fucked in NF

 

[chretien]

Paladins do bugger all damage in melee but then that's what casters are for..
Armsmen are outperformed by Mercs and even Friars offensively.
Mercs = Dual Wield thus halving block, main tank damage with some vicious positionals.
Armsmen = Double spec points to do the same damage, massive damage variance even with a 50/50 weapon/pole spec and get laughed at by anyone with a pbt running.

Chain + evade 1 vs plate is a bit situational but overall it evens out imo.

 

[vintervargen]

polearm styles are way better then LW.

but we dont know that, since albs on excal are crap.

 

[Tsabo]

You havent really dont it fairly though.

Hero's tend to spec 50 sheild 50 LW 28 blades 6 Parry.

sure, a warrior will slam, then ragnarok, then get out s&s again and finish off.

With a hero they would slam, anialate once, then side style, follow up follow up, then pull out s&s and moose out meaning 10%+ to parry, evade, blokin AND 50% extra hp.

And omg, have u ever been hit with an armsmans polearm? Armsmen pole arm is harsh, slam, then thwack thwack and ur pretty much ded no matter how many HP u have.

Now consider the fact that hero's LW can be either crush or slash, and arms pole can be crush, slash or thrust.

Warriors are stuk with one type of damage.

u have done it fairly stat wise, but not common sense wise.

 

[NetNifty]

You havent really dont it fairly though.

Hero's tend to spec 50 sheild 50 LW 28 blades 6 Parry.

I think most heros would have 42 shield as brutalize isnt too handy if your going to be using LW most of the time.

sure, a warrior will slam, then ragnarok, then get out s&s again and finish off.

With a hero they would slam, anialate once, then side style, follow up follow up, then pull out s&s and moose out meaning 10%+ to parry, evade, blokin AND 50% extra hp.

Moose doesnt even do that, all it does is (from camelot-herald.com): Hero-only ability, that transforms a player into a stag-headed Huntsman. This lasts 30 seconds, and gives the player a burst in hitpoints. May be used once every 30 minutes. Initiate = 20% bonus to hitpoints. Member =30%, Leader = 40%, Master = 50%

No bonus to 10% to defence, although thats hero's RR5 ability in NF and is for grp.

And omg, have u ever been hit with an armsmans polearm? Armsmen pole arm is harsh, slam, then thwack thwack and ur pretty much ded no matter how many HP u have.

Polearm hits more or less for same dmg as mid 2h or hib spear or LW assuming that stats are same on chars your testing on. A polearm armsman might hit for 700 dmg if he's lucky but it's gunna be a while til he swings again, just like LW, CS, 2h etc, although pole has the slowest weapon in the game iirc.

Now consider the fact that hero's LW can be either crush or slash, and arms pole can be crush, slash or thrust.

Warriors are stuk with one type of damage.

u have done it fairly stat wise, but not common sense wise.

Hero has access to crush and slash in ONE LINE. An armsman would have to spec 50 Pole, 50 including RR and items for thrust, slash and crush to do the same damage with all of them, which armsman can't do because they get 2x spec points. A hero could have access to all 3 dmg types and do good dmg with all with a spec of 50 CS and 50 LW, where an armsman would only get access to one dmg type for slightly less spec pts.

 

[Asha]

The thing is you have to have a pally in group for the chants, just like a hib group has to have a bard. The point i am trying to make is, that if you look at the 2 classes (hero and arms) there really isnt much of a difference, the hero's job as a high shield specced block bot is not as important with bodyguard, BMs are the offensive hib tanks.

One thing we can all agree with, it looks like we are all fucked in NF

umm the thing is we have to also have a mincer AND a sorcerer to get what you get on the bard, so no, there isn't room for a second def tank. We ran with one way back in 1.63/4 and even then it was difficult even though he was the best guarder I played with. I liked it but we simpley took hours to kill things.

ofcourse there is some upsides in that if our sorc/mincer/pala go down we don't lose all 3 things cc/speed/end regen and ofcourse we get many extra things with these toons that bards don't have

but

you just can't compair bard to pala and say that makes it fair for an arms. There is a reason why all the top arms have quit, they were redundant. I mean there is another Alb toon that can do just about everything better than they can. the one place left was the slam/bg place in a caster group, but that leaves the group without end regen, down a rezzer, down the best group insta heal in the game, down chants.

Once again, Albion has too many classes, and atm arms is near the bottom of the pile

 

[Raven]

Now consider the fact that hero's LW can be either crush or slash, and arms pole can be crush, slash or thrust.

these days any 2h class is pretty much stuck to 1 damage type ie an artifact weapon. and LW users can be thrust too if they use spear of kings, but its wank so they dont.

 

[Yurka]

polearm growth rates are terrible and the dmg isn't great either, 2hd growth rates for armsmen were better and the styles were alot better. But anyway..

Armsmen would either go hybrid which tbh i thought was wank or full s/s or offensive spec.

I've tried every spec there is and stand by the 50 crush/50 2hd..

With 50 main weapon, 42 slam, 36-39 weapon (RR depending) your ws was crap and landing slam wasn't great either. Lossing the extra 11 spec points in weapon increased your dmg variation LOADS, so your main weapon was a pile of crap weapon you wanted to use 2hd.

Armsmen then left with 50/50 2hd/pole base dmg spec. With that you basically would just go 1hd for interrupting the casters, then swapping to 2hd after their BT is down or if you have your merc assist train hitting first.
With 1h out you have crap shield defense so you can't guard anyone nor yourself (i've tried 50 crush/502hd/ 26 shield (guard3 + back stun)), while heros have a 50 shield to sit behind and guard fellow group members.

Armsmen would get:
offensive 2hd and 1h, no defense
hybrid - access to 2hd styles but crap dmg, OKish shield defense but nothing great, and no great 1h ws/dmg
Defensive - decent dmg for 1h - decent defense

Heros get decent 2hd and defense, and have the 1h still for intterupting (but low ws / dmg)
or just go S/S and be same as Armsmen bar stag/plate/evade differences.

 

[ztyx]

What about a Blademaster specing somethink like:
50 Weapon (medium only)
42 Shield
34 CD
20 Parry
+ advanced evade and tripple wield/flurry/charge

 

[Yurka]

putting in your off hand to replace shield every 2 seconds would be fun!

 

[Kagato]

There is a reason why all the top arms have quit

Oi ! Im still here

/sulk

 

[Asha]

well I wasn't thinking of you because you always soloed and this isn't really about soloing...

btw

http://www.duskwave.com/daoc/classrank.php?server=Excalibur&realm=&order=lastweek&class=Armsman

jimmy and brynn made more than you last week! slacker!

(trying to see how many ppl I can get to slap me today)

 

[Driwen]

it isnt so much that the armsmen are that bad, its just that there is a better defensive tank around in alb and one that is also needed for the group. And if you want another shield melee, I would probably go for a reaver instead of an armsman. Allthough I dont know to much of albion though.
They should probably update armsman damage output to fit with dualwielding output, the reason why dualwielding doing more damage than 2handed is ok (i think) is because they have to spec in two lines to get that damage. Except off course that armsman do spec in 2 lines . Or they could make it that polearms can atleast be every damage class, without having to spec into that line. Off course all these ideas have already been mentioned often before I assume, so basically the armsman is doomed (sorry Kagato ).

 

[Kagato]

well I wasn't thinking of you because you always soloed and this isn't really about soloing...

btw

http://www.duskwave.com/daoc/classrank.php?server=Excalibur&realm=&order=lastweek&class=Armsman

jimmy and brynn made more than you last week! slacker!

(trying to see how many ppl I can get to slap me today)

Bitch

I've been playing my theurgist lately thankyou

And I don't always solo...thats just a myth

 

[Asha]

mmm guess that struck a nerve, sorry was too harsh
I know it sucks for armsmen
and you started the myth ^^

don't thwack me tho

 

[Kagato]

mmm guess that struck a nerve, sorry was too harsh
I know it sucks for armsmen
and you started the myth ^^

don't thwack me tho

:wub:

I prefer to solo, its simply not always possibe though and I do like to group somtimes. I don't know whats harder though these days, soloing or finding a good group as an Armsman...

But hey, we get Snapshot soon, im sure it will make us fotm