Guns

old.Tohtori

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actually i believe it does. how else could we sentance for manslaughter/death by diminished responsibility/murder etc.

The jury and such do, law doesn't.

Include the example in my meaning before "showing" me wrong.
 

Saggy

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The sentence for attempted murder is less than for murder in the UK, but my personal logic doesn't understand that. The issue is, that people don't always tell the truth.
There is no such an issue in a case where someone killed your child or tried to kill but failed - the difference between seeing your child playing and your child in morgue is rather huge. The issue is that should the sentence be same regardless wether the killer killed on purpose or not - that's harder to prove because people don't always tell the truth.

Put these on line, from the worst to the least (in a sentence PoV) - A) trying to kill someone but managing only to wound B) trying to kill someone but failing C) killing someone on purpose and D) killing someone by accident. A=B=C > D? D > A=B=C? Sorry, but it seems that your logic is sick and laughable to me but feel free to have it your way.
 

tris-

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The jury and such do, law doesn't.

Include the example in my meaning before "showing" me wrong.

when you say "the law" to me that means the whole thing. i dont know how it works over there but to put it simply, the law is created by the judges here, using 'guidelines' from the government.

C.A.B.D for me saggy.
 

preacherboy

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Murder is murder?
Manslaughter= not pre-meditated
attempted murder=when you leave em for dead and they don't die

In the uk I think if caught with a loaded firearm on your person the minimum sentence the judge can hand out is 5years, I think it is the same for supplying
cocaine-heroine 15 yrs for trafficking
 

old.Tohtori

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when you say "the law" to me that means the whole thing. i dont know how it works over there but to put it simply, the law is created by the judges here, using 'guidelines' from the government.

Still...

If the law said, "if you shoot a gun, it's the same as murder!" like naetha said(not literally), then if you accidentally shoot your rifle at home, someone gets hurt, you go to jail for it? With a same sentence as the gangbanger down the street for shooting someone?
 

Naetha

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Still...

If the law said, "if you shoot a gun, it's the same as murder!" like naetha said(not literally), then if you accidentally shoot your rifle at home, someone gets hurt, you go to jail for it? With a same sentence as the gangbanger down the street for shooting someone?

Thats not what I said at all - if you intend to kill and hit vs if you intend to kill and miss.

Thats the difference between shooting your wife at home and hitting or missing. Rather than shooting your wife at home with the intent to kill, rather than accidentally discharging your hunting gun and killing your wife. The problem occurs when people lie, and they say that they accidentally discharged their gun, when actually they deliberately tried to kill their wife.

Stop putting words in my mouth that just aren’t there.
 

tris-

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The problem occurs when people lie, and they say that they accidentally discharged their gun, when actually they deliberately tried to kill their wife.

Stop putting words in my mouth that just aren’t there.

are you saying we should assume everyone is lieing then?
 

Saggy

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Thats the difference between shooting your wife at home and hitting or missing. Rather than shooting your wife at home with the intent to kill, rather than accidentally discharging your hunting gun and killing your wife. The problem occurs when people lie, and they say that they accidentally discharged their gun, when actually they deliberately tried to kill their wife.
Ok, so "A=B=C>D" is actually your choice? :eek7:
 

old.Tohtori

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Thats not what I said at all - if you intend to kill and hit vs if you intend to kill and miss.

Thats the difference between shooting your wife at home and hitting or missing. Rather than shooting your wife at home with the intent to kill, rather than accidentally discharging your hunting gun and killing your wife. The problem occurs when people lie, and they say that they accidentally discharged their gun, when actually they deliberately tried to kill their wife.

Stop putting words in my mouth that just aren’t there.

I wasn't putting anything in your mouth. Especially not words.

(NOT LITERALLY) <--noticed that there? No?

But according to your logic, why isn't the man at home not lying?

Didn't you say before that everyone "with the intent" should be judged the same, but when the intent is only shown by the person who says "Well your honer, it was an accident", how can you know for sure?

So shouldn't you judge EVERYONE the same.

Or is it just the "ones we can trust" or "sweet looking" that should be given the "intent freepass"
 

Saggy

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Didn't you say before that everyone "with the intent" should be judged the same, but when the intent is only shown by the person who says "Well your honer, it was an accident", how can you know for sure?
No - she was talking about the lenght of the sentences in already given verdicts meaning the judge/court have already made their mind about the type of the crime. "Intented to kill but failed", "killing someone on purpose" and "intented to kill someone but only managing to wound" = same sentence in her books.
 

old.Tohtori

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No - she was talking about the lenght of the sentences in already given verdicts meaning the judge/court have already made their mind about the type of the crime. "Intented to kill but failed", "killing someone on purpose" and "intented to kill someone but only managing to wound" = same sentence in her books.

Well that's just equally silly.

Taking into consideration the whole lying point.
 

Saggy

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Well that's just equally silly.

Taking into consideration the whole lying point.
Naetha said:
The sentence for attempted murder is less than for murder in the UK, but my personal logic doesn't understand that. The issue is, that people don't always tell the truth.
Actually yeah, makes absolutely no sense :p
 

old.Tohtori

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Exactly, and this is what confused me.


Judgments by intent factor, yet the intent factor is pretty much based on people lying, so all should be judged by same, yet different, depending? :eek7:


By the by, people should learn to say "you misunderstood" instead of "you're putting words in my mouth! agression aggression!!".

People are so seriously aggressive on the net that sometimes it's just, scary to think they act like it in real life.
 

Naetha

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Like I said, in my personal logic I feel the sentences should be the same, however people don't tell the truth, so it wouldn't actually work.

This should be blatantly obvious from

Naetha said:
The sentence for attempted murder is less than for murder in the UK, but my personal logic doesn't understand that. The issue is, that people don't always tell the truth.

Which is where we started from in the first place.

Rocket science it is not.
 

Saggy

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Attempt of murder = no corpse vs murder = corpse - what truth we need in here?
 

soze

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Because the law doesn't look at "intent". You accidently shoot your hunting rifle at home, you tried to kill your wife surely, so off to the prison you go for murder.


It dose the CPS in england will decide if you are charged with Pre Meditated Murder Life, Manslaughter 12 years, and then all the other possibilitites. The CPS go the the best and the one that will get you sentenced and then the Jury decide if you are guilty of that charge. The Jury have no say on sentacing or anything else thats the Judge.
 

tris-

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again, are you suggesting that we assume everyone is lieing, that people are guilty untill proven innocent instead of vice versa?
 

old.Tohtori

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Like I said, in my personal logic I feel the sentences should be the same, however people don't tell the truth, so it wouldn't actually work.

This should be blatantly obvious from

Which is where we started from in the first place.

Rocket science it is not.

No, it's not rocket science, but do you have to keep being so insulting? No.

We're discussing it, trying to get your point, perhaps misunderstanding some.

So you're saying, "things should be like this, but it won't work." What's the point in that?

Also what tris- said above.

It dose the CPS in england will decide if you are charged with Pre Meditated Murder Life, Manslaughter 12 years, and then all the other possibilitites. The CPS go the the best and the one that will get you sentenced and then the Jury decide if you are guilty of that charge. The Jury have no say on sentacing or anything else thats the Judge.

the point of that was rather lost, due to bad spelling i guess and seeing what others might not.

What i meant is, how can you tell from accidents to planned things and how would one stop judging an innocent accident as a cold blooded murder?

Especially if there was no degrees.
 

Minstrel

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Should be like 25 years for anyone who gets caught with a gun. Then others will think abit before buying one.
 

soze

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the point of that was rather lost, due to bad spelling i guess and seeing what others might not.

What i meant is, how can you tell from accidents to planned things and how would one stop judging an innocent accident as a cold blooded murder?

Especially if there was no degrees.

Its not easy to prove something is Premeditated but i would say 100% if you carried an illegal gun and killed someone even if you did not mean it it should be Premeditated as you decided to carry the gun you decided to use live ammo further proving intent. You decided to take the safety off or cock the gun. There are too many things that need to happen with a gun to accidently shoot someone. Add to that there is no need to carry one there is no excuse.

In England it is very hard to prove it is premeditated which is why soo many killers get out after 10 years
 

Naetha

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Attempt of murder = no corpse vs murder = corpse - what truth we need in here?

Does it matter when the only difference between the two was for example, a windspeed of 0.5km/s and 0.2km/s?
 

Saggy

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Does it matter when the only difference between the two was for example, a windspeed of 0.5km/s and 0.2km/s?
The only difference? The corpse with bullet in head instead of playing child makes no difference at all? Surely the score matters the most?
 

old.Tohtori

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Its not easy to prove something is Premeditated but i would say 100% if you carried an illegal gun and killed someone even if you did not mean it it should be Premeditated as you decided to carry the gun you decided to use live ammo further proving intent. You decided to take the safety off or cock the gun. There are too many things that need to happen with a gun to accidently shoot someone. Add to that there is no need to carry one there is no excuse.

Well yes, that is common logic really. And thus i had, in my first post(which ALL seemed to miss), that they should screen for gun owners. THEN if they screen you, you could own ballistic missiles, nukes, whatever the f*ck you like.

And if a gun is used to shoot someone, it's a whole different matter.

Premediatation ofcourse is too, a matter of "how much can one lie". I bet i could premeditate a hunting accident, or an "accidental" shooting of my upstairs neighbor from my own flat.

tris-, haven't you learned, if people are wrong or can't answer something, they ignore things instead of saying "you're right" :D
 

Naetha

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tris-, haven't you learned, if people are wrong or can't answer something, they ignore things instead of saying "you're right" :D

Or maybe they lose the will to live when faced with bloody mindedness for the sake of it

:eek6:
 

tris-

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me neither, im asking a valid question as far as im concerned.
 

Saggy

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Well, someone has to! :p
Naetha said:
Did you know that during pregnancy a woman's brain can shrink by up to 10%, and doesn't get back to normal size for at least a year :eek7:
:m00:
 

Naetha

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Oh sorry, I thought maybe someone had got the joke. My fault for assuming people had a modicum of a sense of humour or self-deprecation oO
 

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