Great news for archers (more or less official this time!)

[old.Whoodoo]

WOOT! At last Sanya has something to say on the subject!

Q: (Insert archery question here.)


A: I know some of you don’t follow the boards, so let me catch you up to date. We try to share “coming soon” data with players that attend our real life gatherings. At the most recent one in New York, we posted this picture (go ahead, mouseover it and enlarge it so you can see the text): http://www.darkageofcamelot.com/roadtrip/2007/images/DAoC_NYC01.jpg

The archery revamp notes got a certain amount of attention on the message boards, and raised questions. Some of those questions raised questions. I cannot answer all of the (perfectly valid) questions and concerns tonight, however. The revamp has been broadly designed, yes, but we do not yet have any code completed for that design. Until there is code, we cannot test it, and until we test it, we cannot get user feedback, and without user feedback, we cannot go live.

But I am going to try to answer some of the more basic concerns here, based on a conversation I had with the live team producer and the lead designers.

Let me get two things out of the way now.

Item: We are planning to change the steps it takes to fire an arrow from three clicks to one click. This does remove the functionality whereby you could nock an arrow, and hold on the release to hit targets from maximum range. We are doing this because we desperately need to lower the barrier to archery faced by new and casual players, and because streamlining our interface in general is necessary to bring the game to modern standards.

Item: We are planning to remove the elevation bonus. We put this bonus in, back in oh, early 2001, because we wanted archery to have certain experiences you might find in real life. (“Agincourt, boy, Agincourt!”) However, in practice, it means an archer can hit targets that are way, way, way out of clipping range. It’s just not a good thing anymore.

Now, the benefits to the revamp probably need to be played to be appreciated. But let me try to explain some of them.

- We are introducing a much greater variety of arrow types to the game, and they will be automatic – no need to haul a pile of multiple arrow types around in your packs. Many of these arrows will have nifty graphical effects.

- What will happen to artifacts that summon arrows? That should be settled and in the patch notes when the other changes happen. I don’t know the details, other than the discussion is afoot.

- What will happen to fletching? The Trade Goddess has all kinds of stuff she’s considering, and she would like fletchers to know that she is open to suggestions. Three things among others that she is considering – craftable tents, recipes for tradeskill tools currently only available through quests, and a new type of tradeskill tool – for example, a tool that would minimize the percentage chance of failing an overcharge.

- The new system will be much easier to use. Even specials such as volley will be easier to use. As a result, archers will be more effective, overall.

- We want “50 spec” to mean something. In the new system, someone with 50 spec will consistently outperform someone with a 35 spec.

- Across the board, we are looking to see less variance in damage amounts, and damage in general to be more reliable. Once you figure out which types of shots are more effective versus specific targets, archers will find their results are more predictable “as opposed to the guessing game of current archery.”

One of the most important changes won’t even be visible to you, but I hope I can explain how tremendous the impact will be. Right now, for us to make the tiniest of changes to how much damage a particular arrow does, or to make the most minor of changes to bow performance, we have to make changes to the code. That’s right, the entire system is hard coded. Compare this with, say, spells, where if we want to change how long an effect lasts we just pop into a spreadsheet and change a setting. The new archery system changes all that. After the revamp is done, if we need to make a change due to player feedback, it’ll be a simple matter for the Redhead to flip open a spreadsheet and make it happen.

The extent of the behind-the-scenes changes is why you have not seen a single archery patch note yet, despite our best hopes. Another behind-the-scenes project requiring our programmers has just run a little longer than we had hoped.

I hope to see everyone on Pendragon, bows in hand, when the first changes are made to that server. And I will also do more archery questions once we’re in testing, but for now, what I’ve given you is all I’ve got.

At last!! Full story http://www.camelotherald.com/more/2948.shtml

 

[Kami]

If it worked right I'd probably think about coming back on my ranger or scout on excal/pryd/whateveritscalled.

It would have to be done properly though, well spotted Mr Whoodoo

 

[Tesla Monkor]

Not everything is good, though. Wait and see what they implement - and how. The implications of some of these changes are far-reaching.

- One-shot archery would prevent you from holding a shot, making it harder to time your attack,
- No more range bonus from height is not good,
- The new arrows are only useful if they come with defense penetrating abilities (a proc is useless if you can't actually hit your target)
- Higher reliability might mean that we can do damage more reliably (which would be nice)
- Visual effects on new attacks, while pretty, only serve to get you killed.

There have been numerous threads on IGN regarding these proposed changes, debating the pros and cons. I would caution archers to wait and see. Mythic is about as straight as a pretzel when it comes to keeping their promises and interperting solutions.

The one thing that is important is the Defense Penetration. That is crucial - without it, nothing they change in the patch will really make any difference.

 

[Castus]

The problems having noone left to shoot not the way i cock my arrow

 

[Kami]

lol true, I'd come back but at the moment couldn't run two accounts so I doubt I could compete, know hardly anyone etc. I could go back to the US but perhaps I should just forget about DAOC completely now. These changes may be good depending on how they're implemented but they seem to be a case of too little, too late.

It's the population we need to see increase and soon. As much as I'd like to play on EU again I can't see the point when the population is so damn low.

 

[old.Whoodoo]

I think the range/elevation thing is a good change, with hunters having 20% less range as standard against its rivals, we cant hit shit on top of a L10 tower where our counterparts have been always able to hit us, so fairs fair there IMO.

Ill wait and see how the inability to knotch and wait to fire thing works, I cant say that sounds appealing tbh, especially if we destealth to load an arrow.

I think the recent changes stink of EA, the kind of thing they did to other games in the past, small changes affecting the larger picture.

The population thing is another conversation, the US seems to be thriving still, while EU slowly declines, but this thread is about changes affecting our toons, lets stick to the topic

 

[Darzil]

Only positive thing about it so far seems to be that they are willing to invest time re-writing the code, so maybe they have plans to relaunch DAoC, rather than cancelling it.

Think you'll find a hunter's disadvantage is much less than 20%, but I'll leave the details of that to someone more used to archery (my scout only 42).

Losing the ability to hold a shot, and to gain benefits from positioning in favour of making the stuff you discover by level 6 easier doesn't seem a good trade at the moment.

Darzil

 

[Fatload BoysDoCry]

That is not great news, its a joke, they are nerfing us in our love patch while giving fluff which doesn't address core issues that affect us.

Only Mythic EA would nerf a set of classes in the supposed love patch, then again i watched EA kill off all the great aspects of UO, guess it was only a matter of time before it happened with DAOC

 

[Ormorof]

will be interesting to see... just hope they dont implement a wow-esque approach to archery

 

[Fatload BoysDoCry]

will be interesting to see... just hope they dont implement a wow-esque approach to archery

Thats already confirmed, you see the problem with archers wasn't our ability to hit opponents with our bows, it was our lack of flashing colourful arrows.

 

[Ormorof]

Thats already confirmed, you see the problem with archers wasn't our ability to hit opponents with our bows, it was our lack of flashing colourful arrows.

argh... also noticed on the pics in the story they mention "normalization of spell-lines" and that all archers will get the same spells from simply speccing in Bow, does this mean an end to beastcraft? and will hunters still get pets and stuff?

 

[Fatload BoysDoCry]

argh... also noticed on the pics in the story they mention "normalization of spell-lines" and that all archers will get the same spells from simply speccing in Bow, does this mean an end to beastcraft? and will hunters still get pets and stuff?

The buffs from beastcraft and pathfinding will be removed and put into the bow lines, and scouts will be given buffs in the bow line also. This in affect makes the rangers PF line useless and coupled with the DW nerf really hurts the ranger.

They really need to equalize all bow range/speeds now but i can't see that happening, instead they will probably create some more flashing arrows and call archers fixed

 

[Maeloch]

Something v wierd about seeing powerpoint presentations on gamestuff.

 

[Phantomby]

Has anything been mentioned about the interupt system on bows? wasnt this also a major problem for bow users facing casters? (Not just the inability to penetrate brittles and BT) but the fact that even if you do damage them they QC interupt and then cast faster than you can rapid fire back to interupt them?

Is there going to be an archer version of MOC in the bow line?

 

[Moaning Myrtle]

I think the range/elevation thing is a good change, with hunters having 20% less range as standard against its rivals, we cant hit shit on top of a L10 tower where our counterparts have been always able to hit us, so fairs fair there IMO.

No offence mate, but Hunters wipe the floor with Scouts in all other situations. I know you aren't forgetting about your pet and it's insanely OP proc...

 

[Moaning Myrtle]

argh... also noticed on the pics in the story they mention "normalization of spell-lines" and that all archers will get the same spells from simply speccing in Bow, does this mean an end to beastcraft? and will hunters still get pets and stuff?

I posted that around 2 weeks ago, but some FH random told me I was talking shit. Nice to see I've been vindicated.

 

[megadave]

Hahaha, that's pretty disgusting. So glad i quit my scout after rr10, they've definately no reason to continue in regards to archery.

They haven't even started the code yet, i thought this was the archery patch? ;d Nice to see removal of arrow knocking in return for some fluff and no signs of penetration or anything useful.

 

[Ctuchik]

,
- No more range bonus from height is not good,

no, that *IS* good. no more scouts/rangers/hunters standing on a tower hitting stuff from clip range. with this, atleast casters got a chance again....

 

[anioal]

No offence mate, but Hunters wipe the floor with Scouts in all other situations. I know you aren't forgetting about your pet and it's insanely OP proc...

hunters can wipe the floor with all stealthers, not only scouts

no, that *IS* good. no more scouts/rangers/hunters standing on a tower hitting stuff from clip range. with this, atleast casters got a chance again....

no, is not good... is a bad nerf actually.

the elevation bonus was already limited to 500 units. maybe you have memories from OF when an archer could volley-kill buffbots in portal keeps

 

[Tesla Monkor]

the elevation bonus was already limited to 500 units. maybe you have memories from OF when an archer could volley-kill buffbots in portal keeps

Yeh, I miss that. That was pretty good fun at times. =)

 

[Golena]

Is there going to be an archer version of MOC in the bow line?

There already is.
The problem is that it's crap and in the moden game by the time you've got your first arrow in the air the caster has already loltapped you 4 times.

 

[dex]

first they need to revamp is the miss and block rate..

can´t stand doing a crit shot only to miss and the next 3 arrows getting blocked and having to ruuuun away...

 

[Puppet]

the elevation bonus was already limited to 500 units. maybe you have memories from OF when an archer could volley-kill buffbots in portal keeps

Bingo, we got a winner! When I saw this thread on FH, I immediatly had to look into it (hey, Im not playing DAOC atm but still have my accounts) but so far I cannot see these changes as an improvement:

All I see at the moment is 2 nerfs and not 1 *defined* boost. So what I can shoot purple arrows who leave a yellow trail, yes fun to stand in a keepraid and try to shoot FU in the air, but otherwise useless.

Im playing WoW at the moment, and if Mythic/EA looked at Blizzards way of dealing with archery I can see some stuff which could be easily copied and balanced in DAOC.

* Arcane shot; a 'magical' arrow which bypasses all defense, does magical-damage and is unaffected by armour. Ofcourse on a cooldown. Cannot be blocked/evaded.

* Scatter shot, a shot which disorientates the enemy, like a short stun. Ofcourse on a cooldown.

* Aimed shot, a 'crit-shot' but u can use on targets in combat who are moving

Mana-draining shots, DoT-shots, debuffing-shots, the list is endless you can implement.

 

[partyanimal]

Im playing WoW at the moment, and if Mythic/EA looked at Blizzards way of dealing with archery I can see some stuff which could be easily copied and balanced in DAOC.

sorry but hunter in wow its like fps doom style
and item based game , so when u get narubian slavemaster (1-2 months ago) u could 1 shot every now n then
hunter is the most oped class in wow n has so many tools
i cant believe u can actually find anything good in wow pvp

 

[eble@work]

All I can see is nerfs if you discount the rainbow arrows they will give us.

Range reduction on keeps I could live with as if your that way inclined just get true shot 3, +50% range again.

They 1 shot firing is totally shite speaking from a bow spec point of view, they mention they wanted to make archery more user friendly more like 'let make it so anyone just press 1 button'.

C'mon I mean not being able to knock an arrow and wait for someone to have BT pop'd or something sucks.

I can see scout coming out of this patch very happy, with the shield changes and now BOW spec bufs I'm assuming akin to pathfinding, I dont fancy meeting all those scouts that will now appear.

Shouldn't have much to worry about tho I guess I've not seen a hunter or scout for two weeks on EU cluster, on excal/pryd these changes will have little to no impact, no ones left

Archery love patch my arse.

Eble

 

[Fatload BoysDoCry]

sorry but hunter in wow its like fps doom style
and item based game , so when u get narubian slavemaster (1-2 months ago) u could 1 shot every now n then
hunter is the most oped class in wow n has so many tools
i cant believe u can actually find anything good in wow pvp

Yes because DAOC isn't an item based game.....

 

[Flimgoblin]

if they remove the "invisible sniper from out of clip range" aspect they can probably make DPS better and give other improvements to archery.

improving archery damage while you can still play unhittable gargoyle on a tower roof would be a bad idea.

 

[eble@work]

if they remove the "invisible sniper from out of clip range" aspect they can probably make DPS better and give other improvements to archery.

improving archery damage while you can still play unhittable gargoyle on a tower roof would be a bad idea.

My Crits can hit for about 1300 dmg and standard 650, you really think they will increase the damage I can do, I doubt it.

Take true shot from our RAS fine, but I dont think they will increase DPS, else I'll be hitting for 1500+ imagine the whine then.

They have stated that archery is getting a total overhaul, probably before someone realised the total code re-write was needed, this 'archery' love will take a few pacthes to sort.

Will have to wait and see what they cook up for us,

Eble

 

[Golena]

if they remove the "invisible sniper from out of clip range" aspect they can probably make DPS better and give other improvements to archery.

improving archery damage while you can still play unhittable gargoyle on a tower roof would be a bad idea.

Exactly what I thought when I first read it.

Archers normally these days either kill you before you find out they are shooting at you or die easily.
You've got to remove the first bit before you can fix the second bit.

More bow DPS would be impossible to implement if they could still do it while stealthed from clip.
Archers don't really need more damage tho, they just need less ways of people reducing that damage to zero with a /face command.

Lets not also forget that Mythic don't balance for 1v1's but for zerg warfare. There's very little in this game that's more deadly than assisting archers in a seige situation.

 

[Moaning Myrtle]

I agree with some comments and disagree with others quite strongly. I've mostly soloed with my Scout to RR4L8 and it's a frustrating Class to play. Some Classes are simply /release for you, others you need RAs to beat.

The biggest change in my perception of my Class has been since I bought the TS RA. That has completely changed my ability to kill enemy casters, in that generally now I can, whereas before I never stood a chance.

I am happy to go along with losing the elevation bonus, and I am even happy to keep the damage the same. What I'd like to see are ways of doing the same damage faster (our current non-RF shots just are not fast enough, even with hard capped Qui), and I'd like to be able to penetrate my opponents defences more consistently.

They really should work on Crit Shit, I mean Crit Shot. It ought to work whether the target is stood still or moving, and it should penetrate all defence (Brittles, BT etc.) , hit for 100% damage and to balance that they could make it a timered ability (5 mins max).

I'm looking forward to seeing how things will change.