Governments League Table

[Embattle]

It seems the government loves league tables http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1692000/1692747.stm.

We have a problem with Hospitals..........I know we will give it a league table, that should sort it

 

[Wilier]

But its ok, cos there gonna put up your National Insurance by somthing like 15p in the £ to make it all better!!!!

 

[Wij]

Frankly, after seeing the level of filth last time I visited an NHS hospital I'd rather opt out of that and go Private. Pity I can't and I'd have to end up paying for both :/

 

[throdgrain]

we all moan about the national health service but we're all too tight to do anything about it.thats why you get governments being replaced via promises of improved health service but no addition to taxes.duh it dont take a genius to work out if you want something you generally got to pay for it right?

 

[old.plightstar]

Everybody moans about the NHS, but its a lot better than paying for traetment, every time you need. In stead you can walk into a doctors and recieve medical help, instead of getting out your wallet then getting medical help.

 

[Wij]

Option A.) Go see NHS and wait 2 years for operation.

Option B.) Think stuff it and go see BUPA, cough up dosh, get operation in a week.

If I need an op to improve my quality of life I'd rather just pay for it.

 

[bigbb]

Originally posted by throdgrain
we all moan about the national health service but we're all too tight to do anything about it.thats why you get governments being replaced via promises of improved health service but no addition to taxes.duh it dont take a genius to work out if you want something you generally got to pay for it right?

I don't think you'll find people have a problem with paying for it, quite the opposite. I think the controversy lies with the government's handeling of allocating funds. They consistently allocate wasted money to projects like millenium futures, for instance we have a £16.5million pound tower being errected in Portsmouth to recognise the millienium. Now:

1) it's too facking late
2) nobody wants it.

it's gonna stand 50ft high and piss everyone off with it pearing down on everyting.

No one has a problem with paying for the health service, but they and I can't see why we need to pay more money to them when they can't even fairly allocate the tax income they have already. Throwing more money at the government does not, and never will solve the problem, simply prelong its devestation to the country's health, good management in the NHS and a decent Chancellor is what we need.

 

[bigbb]

btw, as you probably know, when you earn above 30k or around abouts income tax leaps from 23% to 40%.

Now someone convince me the government, earning just about half of people's hard earned cash already, needs more? It's already facking criminal.

 

[xane]

I don't think people realise just how expensive private health actually costs. Remember that BUPA are not a private health company, they are a health insurance company, and all you pay is their premiums, not the actual cost of treatment.

One thing to remember is that premiums are dependent on risk, so if you've got Cancer or HIV+ then you really are up sh*t creek even further, as you are unlikely to get insurance and will have to pay the full detail.

For example, I have a company BUPA scheme and I recently saw a doctor who needed a blood test. The doctor's bill was settled directly by BUPA but the blood test I had to pay for and then get reimbursed for it.

One 5 minute blood test = £89

Word of advice - don't get ill

 

[Wij]

Depends how the insurance works. In some countries it has to work on a community risk basis so you spread your risk among your neighbours (iirc.) Seems like a nice idea.

 

[throdgrain]

GOD you sound like an audience member on question time.who do you think would do better?? the tories?? either you have a very short memory or you're very young m8.
theres no point going on about the dome its done,finished with.wether you liked it or not is irrelevent now surely? we HAVE got to pay for better health service thats that.its very easy to quote some (-one elses) idea of management etc but ,really,what do we know?
anyway to say we need a decent chancellor after the cunts we've had in the past is madness m8.i doubt if gordon brown is perfect (im sure hes not!) but in my working memory we've never had such a long period of financial stability as this.long may it continue is what i say

 

[bigbb]

hey, hey, hey calm down ere sonny. I'm only giving my opinion, and it's a valid one. My sis works for NHS and saids management is one of the biggest problems, the NHS league tables highlighted some good and successful management techniques which are now being applied to other hospitals.

I'm entitled to my opinion and i'm not saying this government as done any better or worse. In fact I think they've done some amazing things which are under publicised but what I am saying is they're allocation has been a boner contention in the past and will continue to be with money wastes such as millenium projects starting at the end of 2001.

 

[throdgrain]

dont call me sonny.sonny.


just kidding im sorry but it winds me up when ppl just criticize without being constructive.the hospital system is in a bloody awful state of that there is no doubt,but ive seen no one who is prepared to do anything more about it,and from a purely personal standpoint im far more scared of a recession than national health failure.in 1990 in the last (tory) recession i was made redundant and was out of work for a year,which was a very bad thing,and not one i want to repeat.after all how could i buy a new pc every year otherwise lol?

 

[*Exor*]

Originally posted by bigbb
btw, as you probably know, when you earn above 30k or around abouts income tax leaps from 23% to 40%.

Now someone convince me the government, earning just about half of people's hard earned cash already, needs more? It's already facking criminal.

Aaaactually, that's bollox. If you earn more than £29,500 you are taxed on everything you earn BEYOND this figure at 40%. The first £29,500 is taxed at the normal %23 (baring personal allowance which for most people is a tax free amount of about £4,000).

To be honest, I'd prefer to pay 50% tax if every single stealth tax and every other income deduction was abolished. Imagine not paying VAT, tax on petrol, road tax, Rates, National insurance. Sure we'd lose half of our money to start with, but wouldn't life be cheaper?

I do agree however that it's the management of the NHS that's the problem, and maybe the amount that top end doctors are payed. The NHS needs massive reform, not just more money thrown at it, they already get quite enough. As I understand it (correct me if I am wrong please), the NHS costs just over a billion pounds a DAY to run, so tell me what good an extra 20mil here, andother 100mil there will do? Absolutely piss all.

I'm pretty sure a billion pounds a day is quite enough to keep us all healthy!

 

[old.Reverend Flatus]

Ooh a moaning thread. Can I join in?

 

[Wij]

Our countries health service is far shitter than most developed countries but they make far more use of the private sector. I think it's the only way to go. Sure we'd pay more in total but at least it's our money being spent where we want it to, on health. People who can't afford Health Insurance would get it as a state benefit.

Plus, criticize the tories if you wish but one thing they did right was getting rid of a load of state monopolies which were costing the country billions in efficient working practices and with powerful union barons calling for strikes every 5 minutes to show how powerful they were and demonstrate the size of their willies.

The Public Sector just leaks cash, our cash.

Come on, lets have some political debate. It's fun

 

[Mr B]

Personal allowance is £4535 (which is deducted from your total income that you are taxed on)

10% tax on £0-£1880
22% tax on £1881-£29,400
40% tax on £29,401 and over.

You have to be earning a fair whack for the 40% to start eating into your wages (too much).

B

 

[Will]

Time for the approved Barrysworld liberal to speak up on the issue. At the election, were the Tories and Labour not both arguing over 1p on income tax, or something like that? The amounts that win/lose elections are virtually nothing. The whole tax system needs reorganised, and Exor said, making the whole thing more simple, and removing stealth taxes, though duty should remain on products such as petrol and fags for other reasons.

Unfortunely, you can't be elected on this sort of policy, since standing up and saying "I will raise taxes for everyone" will get you ripped apart by your opponents.

*sigh* Such is life in a democracy.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Wij
Our countries health service is far shitter than most developed countries but they make far more use of the private sector. I think it's the only way to go. Sure we'd pay more in total but at least it's our money being spent where we want it to, on health. People who can't afford Health Insurance would get it as a state benefit.

You mean like in the US, where the poor have almost no health cover at all? No thanks.

 

[Wij]

Try France, Germany or Australia ?

 

[xane]

To be honest, I'd prefer to pay 50% tax if every single stealth tax and every other income deduction was abolished. Imagine not paying VAT, tax on petrol, road tax, Rates, National insurance. Sure we'd lose half of our money to start with, but wouldn't life be cheaper?

Actually this has been the core of left-wing versus right-wing economic thinking for years. Labour always preferred to tax direct on income, Conservative prefer to tax indirectly on services, products and duties. For those on the lower end of the pay scale the Labour method is a bit preferable, whereas the Conservative method favours the high earners, e.g. you pay the same amount of fuel tax topping up your Jag regardless of your pay.

Of course the main problem with the Labour method is once you bump the tax burden on the high earners they take their money elsewhere and avoid paying tax at all, and then the burden falls down on the low paid, so you're back to square one. Whether the current "Labour" government are just carrying on traditional Conservative methods or they have in fact found a "third way" is open to question, after all they have not raised Income Tax and their indirect taxes are no more than the Conservatives were, so where Gordon gets the cash is anyone's guess, I haven't seen any £500 billion each way bets at Redcar recently.

people's hard earned cash

In my experience, anyone with a high salary (six figures) rarely earned that money the "hard way", I'm not saying this is always the case but it frequently happens. The rare cases I get a nice bonus is mainly due to some sales monkey in the company got a big order in, not because I did anything apart from sit on my bum surfing all day

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by ItchyTrigaFinga
Time for the approved Barrysworld liberal to speak up on the issue. At the election, were the Tories and Labour not both arguing over 1p on income tax, or something like that? The amounts that win/lose elections are virtually nothing. The whole tax system needs reorganised, and Exor said, making the whole thing more simple, and removing stealth taxes, though duty should remain on products such as petrol and fags for other reasons.

Unfortunely, you can't be elected on this sort of policy, since standing up and saying "I will raise taxes for everyone" will get you ripped apart by your opponents.

*sigh* Such is life in a democracy.

Time for a Wijtatorship

Seriously, I read (might be guff then) that it costs 75% less to collect taxes (as a ratio to amount raised) in the USA than it does in the UK. Our system is faaaaaaaar too complex.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Wij
Try France, Germany or Australia ?

You're right, I was being a bit shallow on that comment. The French health service is amazing, but the spending per head of population on healthcare in France is about double what is spent here. Is it not all covered through public taxes though? I can't really remember how their system works.

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by camazotz

Of course the main problem with the Labour method is once you bump the tax burden on the high earners they take their money elsewhere and avoid paying tax at all, and then the burden falls down on the low paid, so you're back to square one. Whether the current "Labour" government are just carrying on traditional Conservative methods or they have in fact found a "third way" is open to question, after all they have not raised Income Tax and their indirect taxes are no more than the Conservatives were, so where Gordon gets the cash is anyone's guess, I haven't seen any £500 billion each way bets at Redcar recently.

Actually I'm pretty sure indirect taxes have gone up, I'll have to think to remember exactly what. Plus things like MIRAS and Married Couple's Allowance have been scrapped. Mainly tho it's due to the economy having done well for several years (not all of which can be credited to Mr Brown but I'll give him some kudos for it.)

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by ItchyTrigaFinga
You're right, I was being a bit shallow on that comment. The French health service is amazing, but the spending per head of population on healthcare in France is about double what is spent here. Is it not all covered through public taxes though? I can't really remember how their system works.

time to crank up google and research methinks

 

[throdgrain]

critisize the tories if i want?? did anyone here actually LIVE throught the eighties???

 

[Wij]

Yeh, big hair, shoulder pads, bangles. I remember

 

[Will]

Aye, that was them - if you think it was bad in England, remember that every bad idea the Tories implemented was tested in Scotland for a year first, since we mostly don't vote Tory anyway.

 

[throdgrain]

for once i sympathise with the scots
yeah it was terrible.but the labour party has been in for a few years now so ppl start saying how bad things are.imo they are a lot better than they were then.
after all,how many times can you watch crocodile dundee ffs

 

[Will]

Well, they aren't exactly Labour as I remember them. What happened to the raising taxes, improving public services, ending the privatisation of public services, etc etc?

Anyway, I'm an SNP or Liberal man myself. They're more socialist than the New Labour anyway.