Government to bail out Vauxhall?

[Bugz]

Think about it...

Funding comes w/ a price - structural reforms and changes to the motor system.

What are the government pushing for? More economical cars.

Obama had exactly the same idea in mind.

Environmentally friendly cars I mean

 

[Uara]

BBC NEWS | Business | Government confirms Jaguar talks

looks like more car companies wanting aid!

 

[DaGaffer]

BBC NEWS | Business | Government confirms Jaguar talks

looks like more car companies wanting aid!

So Tata can afford £1.7bn to buy them but expect to come to the taxpayer to help run them? Sounds like "give us cash or we'll relocate the factories"-blackmail to me; which is nothing new of course, car companies have been doing that for decades, but this one leaves a bit of a sour taste in the mouth.

In reality I think Jag and LR and doomed in the long-term anyway. Unless Tata can get access to some serious hybrid/hydrogen/battery technology, LR and Jag will struggle to meet new US CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) regs due in 2011. When they were part of Ford, Jag and LR's high average mileage could be absorbed across all Ford's US car range, that won't be an option now they're part of Tata, and while new markets like China and India may make up for losing sales in the US, they'd have to invest massively in dealer and supply chain infrastructure, which takes money away from new model development, and the cycle continues. Of course if Tata buys Fiat, as is rumoured, it could all change again, and Tata will probably put the begging bowl out to the Italian government as well...

 

[old.user4556]

So Tata can afford £1.7bn to buy them but expect to come to the taxpayer to help run them? Sounds like "give us cash or we'll relocate the factories"-blackmail to me; which is nothing new of course, car companies have been doing that for decades, but this one leaves a bit of a sour taste in the mouth.

In reality I think Jag and LR and doomed in the long-term anyway. Unless Tata can get access to some serious hybrid/hydrogen/battery technology, LR and Jag will struggle to meet new US CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) regs due in 2011. When they were part of Ford, Jag and LR's high average mileage could be absorbed across all Ford's US car range, that won't be an option now they're part of Tata, and while new markets like China and India may make up for losing sales in the US, they'd have to invest massively in dealer and supply chain infrastructure, which takes money away from new model development, and the cycle continues. Of course if Tata buys Fiat, as is rumoured, it could all change again, and Tata will probably put the begging bowl out to the Italian government as well...

I was going to post something similar, stop stealing my post ideas!

Yes, I don't see why they need tax payer's cash when they're part of Tata motors. Get to fuck I say.

 

[DaGaffer]

I was going to post something similar, stop stealing my post ideas!

Seen Being John Malkovich? I keep getting thrown out onto the hard shoulder of the M6

 

[rynnor]

I was going to post something similar, stop stealing my post ideas!

Me too - tbh this seems like a piss take - I'd rather give money to vauxhall who are in trouble but have a future than to Tata.

We'll end up giving Tata a load of cash then they'll relocate n asset strip Jaguar.

 

[Tom]

You can guarantee that any promise of cash would be conditional, so I wouldn't worry too much.

Besides, Jaguar make some ace cars. Vauxhall do not.

 

[DaGaffer]

Besides, Jaguar make some ace cars. Vauxhall do not.

Hardly the point.

 

[MYstIC G]

All this propping up is complete BS. Lets give people money to keep making cars that nobody else can afford to buy so we end up with a stockpile of unsold cars... they should start making spare parts if anything.

 

[old.user4556]

BBC NEWS | Business | Bush unveils $17.4bn car bail-out

 

[Chilly]

What bush unveileth, obama re-vaileth!

 

[old.user4556]

BBC NEWS | UK | Tata 'to inject cash into Jaguar'

 

[Bahumat]

I think the car companies should be bailed out because it means alot of people would lose their job (myself possibly included). However if they give them money, it does not mean people will rush to buy cars so are they slowing the inevitable?

 

[Bugz]

Why not help Woolworths too by that logic Bahumat?

60,000 people have lost their jobs in the stores alone.

 

[Ch3tan]

30,000 across the woolworths group. About 35k of those from stores. But it has affected a lot of the suppliers and media publishers as well.

 

[Tom]

Why not help Woolworths too by that logic Bahumat?

60,000 people have lost their jobs in the stores alone.

I would imagine that the number of suppliers to companies like Jaguar is much much higher than with a business like Woolworths. Jaguar will have many companies who are dedicated to producing for them - I doubt you could say the same for Woolworths, who would only require a limited number of dedicated suppliers.

I reckon the administrators would have made a simple judgement - is the price offered by potential buyers of the entire company more than what could be made by breaking it up and selling it off. Clearly, the latter is more profitable for creditors.

 

[MYstIC G]

That's a complete guess Tom.

 

[Tom]

It isn't a complete guess - there will be many companies set up specifically to supply only Jaguar with products. You I very much doubt you could say the same for Woolworths, evidenced partly by the fact that nobody wanted to buy it.

 

[old.user4556]

Well here's some solid evidence.

BBC NEWS | Business | Zavvi placed into administration

 

[Gumbo]

There's going to be a ton more following Zavvi. The banks will be quick to call it in whilst there's still some cash in the business, rather than hang it out as long as they normally would. Names I've heard mentioned include JJB, and Jessops, the Dixons/PCWorld lot are teetering. All those sales with 40% off etc we've seen over the last few weeks is simply to try and generate cashflow to pay suppliers, rent and wages. It's stripped so much of the margin that there is serious consequences ahead. That's if the measures have worked to generate cash at all anyway. January and February are going to be horrible horrible months if you work in retail. February and March catastrophic if you work in retail service, and the next few years pretty rubbish for the rest of us. There was over 25% unemployment in the states in the great depression of 1929 which lasted pretty much until WW2 created some employment again...

 

[old.user4556]

I need to be blunt here:

Am I the only one who thinks and has thought for a long time that these sorts of shops have been living on borrowed time? Surely shops like Zavvi have been massively undercut by the likes of Play and Amazon, and shops like Jessops and PC World can't compete with small outfit businesses that manage without massive staff and shop overheads like Overclockers and Digital Camera Shop Online?

Has anyone been in Jessops recently and has seen a) the shit inflated prices b) the shit range of choice? One of my favourite shops in Edinburgh (Sevenoaks sound and vision) has closed down recently - as much as I loved the shop, their prices made Jesus weep; there's no way they can compete with an online retailer such as HifiGear or SuperFi. JJB's time was up a long time ago.

I joked with my girlfriend before this crunch even happened that Zavvi would be a victim down the line; music downloads, Amazon and Play.com putting them to bed. Once mass downloadable HD content is available in in the next 5-10 years, kiss Blockbuster video and lovefilm.com goodbye (unless they spot where it's going and get into that market asap). In addition, the Sony Centre shops that sell Sony kit at a good 20% higher than online shops will vapourise sometime next year I predict.

Throw public and consumer prudence into the mix and the willingness to shop around and online; that'll be the kiss of death.

It's tragic, fucking tragic what's happening to the companies going down the tubes and the thought of those losing their jobs really makes me feel unhappy and complete shit (being the son of a father who was made redundant twice and knows the pain and how hard it is).

However, like I say, I can't help but feel this has been looking likely for longer than before this credit crunch, which has only served to speed up the demise of ailing businesses.

 

[DaGaffer]

I've been saying it for years tbh. Particularly about Virgin/Zavvi, HMVs of this world, but also anyone in a commoditised specialist market (bookstores, high street electricals and GAME are also dreadfully exposed). At the end of this recession the High Street will be a very different place. I'd have taken a bet on Woolies going sooner than now as well, it was a format looking for a market that no longer exists.

 

[Bugz]

That's very true Big G.

It's basically just a much more dramatic form of frictional unemployment which has never really been witnessed to this scale before.

It's the reason why governments should be helping people as they look for jobs, as opposed to keeping industries going who are not making much progress in the market.

I know the Armed Forces in the UK for example still have about 6,000 jobs available. Just until the demand meets the supply, frictional unemployment prevails.

 

[Ctuchik]

It isn't a complete guess - there will be many companies set up specifically to supply only Jaguar with products. You I very much doubt you could say the same for Woolworths, evidenced partly by the fact that nobody wanted to buy it.

sure, i can probably agree on that, but the "bail out is needed" ppl have claimed (not necceserily here btw) that the auto industry produce 3 - 5 jobs for every 1 of their employees, and that is aparently not true. actual analysts have found that they only generate an additional 0.3 - 0.5% new jobs per auto industry employee.

with that said, theres still one hell of alot of employees in the auto industry so SOMETHING needs to be done

but as someone said, bailing them out might not be all good either as that isnt giving GM and company a reason to redo their sales strategy or look at other car possibilitys. they just keep on making the same shit cars they always have. and will probably need another bailout sooner rather then later.

the car industry as a whole needs some new thinking, and i dont think any of the major companys can do that.

we need actual NEW cars, not just "new" cars based on old models that werent selling all that great either. because that seems to be the auto industrys "oh shit" card, like the new mini or Wv beetle or the Gt50 etc etc.

so maybe having GM, Ford and most of the other monopoly companys go bust wont be all bad. because i'm fairly certain there will be other car manufacturers popping up with actual new ideas that would otherwise just get bought up and killed if said companys would still be around.


oh and microsoft needs to die to, slow and painful!

 

[Ctuchik]

I need to be blunt here:

Am I the only one who thinks and has thought for a long time that these sorts of shops have been living on borrowed time? Surely shops like Zavvi have been massively undercut by the likes of Play and Amazon, and shops like Jessops and PC World can't compete with small outfit businesses that manage without massive staff and shop overheads like Overclockers and Digital Camera Shop Online?

Has anyone been in Jessops recently and has seen a) the shit inflated prices b) the shit range of choice? One of my favourite shops in Edinburgh (Sevenoaks sound and vision) has closed down recently - as much as I loved the shop, their prices made Jesus weep; there's no way they can compete with an online retailer such as HifiGear or SuperFi. JJB's time was up a long time ago.

I joked with my girlfriend before this crunch even happened that Zavvi would be a victim down the line; music downloads, Amazon and Play.com putting them to bed. Once mass downloadable HD content is available in in the next 5-10 years, kiss Blockbuster video and lovefilm.com goodbye (unless they spot where it's going and get into that market asap). In addition, the Sony Centre shops that sell Sony kit at a good 20% higher than online shops will vapourise sometime next year I predict.

Throw public and consumer prudence into the mix and the willingness to shop around and online; that'll be the kiss of death.

It's tragic, fucking tragic what's happening to the companies going down the tubes and the thought of those losing their jobs really makes me feel unhappy and complete shit (being the son of a father who was made redundant twice and knows the pain and how hard it is).

However, like I say, I can't help but feel this has been looking likely for longer than before this credit crunch, which has only served to speed up the demise of ailing businesses.

well, as long as theres someone that can offer what we want cheaper then anyone else, someone will get hurt by it if they cant/wont adapt.

online shops will be the norm in ~5 - 10 years, even for groceries.

were all just to fucking lazy to get off our fat arses and go down the shop if theres an online version available for the most part.

i mean, theres even fridges available now that can order your fucking food for you if u run out of something, you dont even have to do THAT yourself.

i mean, i love it myself but sometimes i just wish that whoever thought of all this would have died before he did.

i actually start to believe ppl when they say "it was better in the old days".

sure it was by no means good, ppl suffered back then to, but i dunno, there seemed to be alot more work available back then. if all else failed just take a chainsaw and go cut down some fucking trees, there was atleast alot broader market of jobs back then, something for everyone that didnt need a high school diploma or a university degree (u bloody need that to clean a fucking toilet nowadays). everything needs a degree at something it seems now. u just cant walk in anywhere, say you never had a job anywhere and get given one anyway.

its fucking hell for ppl like me, i'm 32 years old, never ever had a proper job, failed my education because i just can't learn something by reading the instructions. always been stuffed into one goverment project after another that sure as hell isnt actually helping me get a job, its just to get me the hell away from the bad statistics.

hmm, kinda went a tad offtopic here, i'l stop now

 

[rynnor]

Poor old Zavvi yet tbh this like Woolworths was going to happen eventually - markets change and those who dont realise and adapt are doomed to fall by the wayside.

During the bubble years even failed businesses could survive but their bygod going to drop now!

HMV must be soon to follow them, JJB sports is doing 95% reduction sales which sounds to me like a 'closing down' sale.

A mate works for Sharps who do fitted bedrooms - that whole group of Moben/Sharps/Dolphin is having a 50% sale now but my mate says theres no orders coming in - people in a recession seem oddly reluctant to pay thousands on home improvements... These companies may also soon be in administration...

Sometimes I wonder what we really have left in europe thats worldbeating and gives us a competitive advantage - it feels to me like we are living on the back of slowly fading past glories economically speaking...

I hope my worst fears are averted in 09 for all our sakes.

 

[GReaper]

well, as long as theres someone that can offer what we want cheaper then anyone else, someone will get hurt by it if they cant/wont adapt.

online shops will be the norm in ~5 - 10 years, even for groceries.

I wouldn't go that far! At least not that soon anyway...

The days of going into a store to buy an expensive item (TV, etc.) won't last forever - I'd just go to a store to look at the models available and come back home and search the Internet for the best deals. Certain things do work better in physical stores - clothes, food, etc.

I would say that businesses will need to reinvent themselves though to cope with the future though, they can't just continue down the declining old ways and assume people will buy items at uncompetitive prices.

 

[Ch3tan]

To comment on Zavvi from a personal view, they owed a hell of a lot of cash to Woolies Group via EUK in unpaid invoices. But it is not their fault, bad management at Woolworths alllowed massive credit streams to be built up between people we supplied and people we bought from. It was an unsustainable model in these hard times.

I have said it before and people on here and irc said I was talking rubbish, that the fall of EUK and Woolies would affect no one in any big way, well here is the first big casualty. Tesco will be the big winner from this. They stopped EUK supplying them for dvd's, games and cd's and went direct to the publishers. I fully envisage Tesco taking over the market share left behind by EUK. Which means they will be supplying their main competitors and making money either way.

 

[MYstIC G]

It isn't a complete guess - there will be many companies set up specifically to supply only Jaguar with products. You I very much doubt you could say the same for Woolworths, evidenced partly by the fact that nobody wanted to buy it.

It really is a guess without specifics. It's perfectly possible that all of Jags components could now come from one factory in Taiwan.

 

[Tom]

It's possible but not true.