Good rvr fg alb

[Afternoon Tea]

Seems no one mentions the setup that I use almost everyday which is

Mind Sorc
Body Sorc
Body Sorc
Spirit Cabby
Spirit Cabby
Theurgist/Mincer
Cleric
Cleric

I dont see where people get that full caster groups dont work anymore. We win more than we lose, so for albs I guess thats what you would consider a good group setup.

You have 2MA's nuking for ~500 each with an assister each nuking for ~700 which drops anything in 3 seconds, you have loads of pets, even more if you have a theurgist instead of a mincer.

The key to an alb group winning really doesnt rely as much on what class you are playing as much as it does WHO is playing it. I've been in groups with more than half the group below rr5 and still owned high rr mid and hib groups, but ofc these low rr chars were alts of people who have played for years and know wtf they are doing.

 

[SethNaket]

well your dumb because they both have the same tools

so

a body sorc will still out-damage a mind spec sorc if both use the lifetap

maybe on paper the lifetap does more damage but in actual RvR the body nuke is far better

I see you're one of those who will never abandon "your" spec and defend it to the death even when you're wrong, so I guess there's no point trying to convince you.

For everyone else however, a splitspec sorc using lifetap will outdamage a full body sorc using spec DD when nuking and have better version of all the great spells in mind spec. The only reason to ever go full body is if you're going to be a debuffbot for a wizard(s).

 

[Raven]

how about

Cleric: 34 smite (2nd to last insta aoe mez, yes you do get one omg!!11) 41 rej
cleric: 12 smite (aoe interupt) 38 ench (1st set of single shears) 36 rej
sorc: 44 mind (bolt range aoe mez, demez) 31 body
paladin: end defence etc
merc: damage etc
mincer: spd, interupts, slight damage etc
thurg: massive pet spam, BT etc
caba: 41 matter last nearsight 34 body (2nd to last aoe desease)


plenty of interupts, enough damage, insta mez, bolt range mez, nearsight

never played alb but on paper surely this would be an ok grp setup?

 

[Fedaykin]

I see you're one of those who will never abandon "your" spec and defend it to the death even when you're wrong, so I guess there's no point trying to convince you.

For everyone else however, a splitspec sorc using lifetap will outdamage a full body sorc using spec DD when nuking and have better version of all the great spells in mind spec. The only reason to ever go full body is if you're going to be a debuffbot for a wizard(s).

mate ive played a sorc since release and played every mind/body spec there is and believe me you know fuck all.

you're playing with figures i'm playing with fact. The day a mind sorc outdamages me i will reroll 50 matter.

i'll be happy to log on you bring your sorc i'll bring mine and we'll run some tests

 

[Asha]

THAT IS NOT INSTA MEZ FFS
it's on a 5 MINUTE timer
it's pbaoe PB PB PB PB PB PB PB - get it yet? not AOE -PB-AOE
it's on a 350 range
I am going to leave it to you to work out how often a lvl 30 spell gets resisted.

why do you people keep bringing it up?
you do NOT SPEC for a spell on a 5 minute timer

The group itself isn't that bad imo but the cleric specs arent going to work.

I still have yet to hear of anyone really trying a high high enh cleric in group.

 

[Carrera]

how about

Cleric: 34 smite (2nd to last insta aoe mez, yes you do get one omg!!11) 41 rej
cleric: 12 smite (aoe interupt) 38 ench (1st set of single shears) 36 rej
sorc: 44 mind (bolt range aoe mez, demez) 31 body
paladin: end defence etc
merc: damage etc
mincer: spd, interupts, slight damage etc
thurg: massive pet spam, BT etc
caba: 41 matter last nearsight 34 body (2nd to last aoe desease)


plenty of interupts, enough damage, insta mez, bolt range mez, nearsight

never played alb but on paper surely this would be an ok grp setup?

sorry but there is no where near "enough damage" in that group

 

[flex]

rejuv cleric, enhance cleric, reaver, defense friar, mind sorc, split sorc, 3spec caby, ice or wind theurg.

- friar stays defensive: bodyguard, heal, get pets of healers etc.
- enhance cleric is backup healer, main job is to aoe shear on inc, then assist con shear/aoe shear interrupt/spreadheal
- reaver: go offensive, can be grapple immune couse of theurg & friar buffs. Gives good interrupt and oki damage.
- mind sorc: primary cc, get pets of clerics, aoe interrupt on start of fight till theurg got pet spam up, then assist caby.
- split sorc: demezz, backup cc, assist caby
- 3spec caby: 45% nearsigh on start of fight, aoe desease, then debuff nuke.
- theurg: petspam.

Con shearing/debuffing is important for this group, it makes them kill alot faster (losing 500-900 hp that can't be healed back makes a huge difference)

 

[AmeinoN]

Nerf Grapple.

 

[SethNaket]

mate ive played a sorc since release and played every mind/body spec there is and believe me you know fuck all.

Haha, you might wanna get your head out of your own ass "mate".

you're playing with figures i'm playing with fact. The day a mind sorc outdamages me i will reroll 50 matter.

Well for starters you could try reading, I said 40b sorc not "mind sorc". Are you gonna make me repeat this a third time before you get it? 40b sorc is the best nuking spec sorc.

Again it's very simple, and the "figures" as you call it are from ingame tests. You could easily get the same results on your own sorc if you weren't so scared of proving yourself wrong. I already told you how, just do a spec DD then a lifetap on your BB or something then divide the damage by the delve castspeed and see which one gives you the bigger number. I can give you a hint which one wins if you want...

 

[Vasconcelos]

Just a doubt..

who tf cares about divisions, maths, logaritmics etc..? 1 single specc DD will do more damage than 1 base lifetap. Tests proved that after 10+ nukes the diference is slightly higher for base lifetap but neways, who is able to nuke 10+ times straight in rvr??

 

[SethNaket]

Just a doubt..

who tf cares about divisions, maths, logaritmics etc..? 1 single specc DD will do more damage than 1 base lifetap. Tests proved that after 10+ nukes the diference is slightly higher for base lifetap but neways, who is able to nuke 10+ times straight in rvr??

No, because spells backload damage rather than frontload, as soon as the first lifetap hits you're outdamaging the spec DD. You don't have to do it 10 times. The question you should be asking is, why would you want to spend 215 extra spec points to not do more damage in rvr?

 

[Fedaykin]

No, because spells backload damage rather than frontload, as soon as the first lifetap hits you're outdamaging the spec DD. You don't have to do it 10 times. The question you should be asking is, why would you want to spend 215 extra spec points to not do more damage in rvr?

lol are you so clueless? i know for a fact the lifetap doesnt do more damage with 1 single DD

its DPS is apparantly higher, meaning you will only see an increase of damage using the tap after a number of casts, when the greater cast speed helps out

your facts are flawed, my DD does more damage than my tap

RR9l2 sorc, 338 int, mom3 wp3 10% damage, 10 % passive piercing 5% active

 

[SethNaket]

lol are you so clueless? i know for a fact the lifetap doesnt do more damage with 1 single DD

Noone said it did, if you're gonna reply with a quote atleast make a tiny effort to talk about what was in my post.

its DPS is apparantly higher, meaning you will only see an increase of damage using the tap after a number of casts, when the greater cast speed helps out

The DPS is higher and spells backload damage thus the lifetap will be ahead as soon as the first lifetap lands, don't need "a number of casts".

your facts are flawed, my DD does more damage than my tap

No, you're just not quick to catch on when it comes to things that don't agree with your narrowminded opinion.

 

[Fedaykin]

ok a quick test on a grey mob i am unbuffed for both dd's so the situation is stand for both DD and lifetap

so

No, because spells backload damage rather than frontload, as soon as the first lifetap hits you're outdamaging the spec DD. You don't have to do it 10 times. The question you should be asking is, why would you want to spend 215 extra spec points to not do more damage in rvr?

we can see that the lifetap doesnt outdamage the spec DD from the beginning.

any more drivel you want to spew forth?

the whole sorc lifetap is better than DD argument is based around the constant idea of damage logged over 20 seconds or something where the lifetap apparantly can be cast a little faster i.e. the principal

more casts = more damage due to the sorc lifetap being 2.5 cast and the DD being 2.8, now replicate the circumstances on a char with +dex, +casting speed, mastery of the art 3 and watch your mind sorc pipe dreams disappear - as well as the sorcs power if you think they can spam lifetap whereever they choose.

a mind sorc spamming lifetap goes oop long before a sorc spamming DD - so another reason why the DD is a better and smarter choice to use. and i'm sure every seasoned sorc will tell you that numbers arn't everything and that a body sorc is the best nuker.

 

[SethNaket]

ok a quick test on a grey mob i am unbuffed for both dd's so the situation is stand for both DD and lifetap

You nuke grey mobs when you rvr? mk. I guess the simple testing process I've told you two times already was a bit too complicated.

 

[Fedaykin]

You nuke grey mobs when you rvr? mk. I guess the simple testing process I've told you two times already was a bit too complicated.

tested on Spiritraiser and big surprise to me - the DD does more damage, remember i have no INT buff so dmg is pretty low on both

also note 2 resists on the lifetap (seems to happen a lot in rvr)

 

[SethNaket]

tested on Spiritraiser and big surprise to me - the DD does more damage, remember i have no INT buff so dmg is pretty low on both

382/2.8=136.4
346/2.5=138.4

Lifetap does 1.5% more DPS. Spells don't frontload so more DPS is always the winner, result lifetap wins.

also note 2 resists on the lifetap (seems to happen a lot in rvr)

Sorc TL tested resist rate and got the exact same % on lifetap and the 45 DD. Any "extra resists" for the lifetap component is compensated for by the spec DD only being lvl 45.

 

[Tholaawg]

if the cast speeds are both 1s tho spec dd is better

 

[Fedaykin]

382/2.8=136.4
346/2.5=138.4

Lifetap does 1.5% more DPS. Spells don't frontload so more DPS is always the winner, result lifetap wins.

well according to your early post with backloading spells your magic lifetap did more damage from the offset, which i proved to be false.

also casting at near cap speed the .3 difference between lifetap and dd is negligable - how about you get the all knowing Sorc TL to test with a character which is actually good i.e capped speeds etc and then come back

and anyway getting back to the actual topic, you make a group with mind sorcs and you'll do less damage than running with body sorcs.

 

[SethNaket]

if the cast speeds are both 1s tho spec dd is better

The ratio between the castspeeds never change so you can't get both to 1s cast speed.

well according to your early post with backloading spells your magic lifetap did more damage from the offset, which i proved to be false.

Nope, you proved me right, as soon as the first spell lands the lifetapper is ahead, doesn't take 10 casts.

also casting at near cap speed the .3 difference between lifetap and dd is negligable - how about you get the all knowing Sorc TL to test with a character which is actually good i.e capped speeds etc and then come back

Yeah I guess those ratios are really hard to understand. Cap speed on lifetap is 1.0s, cap speed on spec DD is 1.12s. I wonder what we get as result now?!

382/1.12=341.1
346/1.0=346

OMG the lifetap still has 1.5% more DPS! Funny that, how dividing two numbers by the same denominator doesn't change the ratio between them, isn't it? Maybe they should teach stuff like that in school?

 

[Tholaawg]

so only spells with 2.5s cast speed can ever be cast at 1s? that means that theres a cap higher than 1s on spells with castspeed > 2.5s?

 

[SethNaket]

so only spells with 2.5s cast speed can ever be cast at 1s? that means that theres a cap higher than 1s on spells with castspeed > 2.5s?

The cap is at 40% of delve for all spells. 2.5s*0.40=1.0s, 2.8s*0.40=1.12, etc etc for other spells.

 

[Vasconcelos]

Anyways, 6-8 base lifetaps from mind sorc n your mana bar is bye bye

 

[SethNaket]

Anyways, 6-8 base lifetaps from mind sorc n your mana bar is bye bye

And for the third time we're not talking about mind sorcs, we're talking 40b sorcs who get full focus bonus meaning they use 3 power more per spell. So no, they don't runt oop after 6-8 lifetaps (not that anyone ever would, but excaggerations seem to be the name of the game today eh).

 

[Fedaykin]

seth

anyone who uses lifetap burns through mana on a lifetap, something to do with base line spells not gaining full benefit from focus bonuses

do you even have a sorc?

 

[SethNaket]

seth

anyone who uses lifetap burns through mana on a lifetap, something to do with base line spells not gaining full benefit from focus bonuses

do you even have a sorc?

Focus compares the spell level versus the modified skill level and the focus on your staff. A 40b sorc will have over 50 modified body, and since there are no spells higher level than 50 he will indeed get full focus bonus on his base lifetap, just like a spec DDer. The only difference in power consumption will be the difference in delve powercost, which when modified to 75% (max focus bonus afaik) becomes a 3 point difference.

I don't know about your sorc, but on my theurg I get 36 power per tick from a powerfont, that's 5% of total pool so I should have 720 power then. If each lifetap costs 75% of delve that means 28 lifetaps on that powerpool, a far cry from the 6-8 mr excaggerate suggested above. For comparison, the full body sorc could throw 32 spec DDs on the same powerpool, big whoop what a difference.

 

[Fedaykin]

Focus compares the spell level versus the modified skill level and the focus on your staff. A 40b sorc will have over 50 modified body, and since there are no spells higher level than 50 he will indeed get full focus bonus on his base lifetap, just like a spec DDer. The only difference in power consumption will be the difference in delve powercost, which when modified to 75% (max focus bonus afaik) becomes a 3 point difference.

I don't know about your sorc, but on my theurg I get 36 power per tick from a powerfont, that's 5% of total pool so I should have 720 power then. If each lifetap costs 75% of delve that means 28 lifetaps on that powerpool, a far cry from the 6-8 mr excaggerate suggested above. For comparison, the full body sorc could throw 32 spec DDs on the same powerpool, big whoop what a difference.

well first of all your power bar is modified by your +power and +power % so stating a random number makes no sense

ok and even with your statistics, body gets 4 extra DDs- equating to around 1800-2000 extra damage...

big whoop what a difference - thats 1 dead caster

and since you don't have a sorc you don't know what your talking about and posting figures which i can safely say are false regarding power consumption on lifetap doesn't really help, every sorc on this forum - whether full mind or full body or even your godly split spec (which i used to be when in the NO caster group fyi) know that the lifetap uses far far more power than the DD. Ergo the caster has fewer casts, and does less damage.

 

[SethNaket]

<random blabber showing you don't even understand what I wrote>
ok and even with your statistics, body gets 4 extra DDs- equating to around 1800-2000 extra damage...

big whoop what a difference - thats 1 dead caster

Never said it didn't use more, it's your excaggerations that make it look like you're just grasping for straws since you know you can't refute what I said(because I'm right).

and since you don't have access to a sorc you don't know what your talking about.

I can log on ruune anytime, just gotta ask morsan for the new PW since he changed it since I last used him. Not much point tho since you've already provided the only results that are needed, your own SS shows the lifetap doing higher DPS than the specnuke you needlessly spent 215 spec pts to get.

Ergo the caster has fewer casts, and does less damage.

Not one page ago you were trying to argue that since you never get to cast 10 spells in a row spec DD was somehow better, now you change your tune to that since you empty your entire powerbar nuking spec DD is better? Make up your mind.

Lifetap outdamages the spec DD with less spec points used, thus letting you get much better mind spec spells. It's as simple as that.

 

[Succi]

Pretty sure Seth is right on this one

 

[Fedaykin]

well we know for a fact that there is a cap on cast speed on spells, i don't have access to the exact numbers but i have seen it proved

so assuming that your calculations are correct:

382/1.12
346/1.0

the lifetap casts 0.1 second faster than the DD: so to see an extra lifetap and therefore your extra DPS you would need to do 10 casts.

so for every 10 DD's you get 11 lifetaps (i think)
and then the cycle would start again. i.e. every 20 dd's you can do 22 lifetaps.

11 lifetaps taken from the dmg on my screen equates to 3806 dmg and the 10 DD's equates to 3820 damage. So in the same time, the DD has done 14 more damage, with 1 less cast, and 3x11 = 33 less power spent. (the figures you gave for the extra power consumption)

Not one page ago you were trying to argue that since you never get to cast 10 spells in a row spec DD was somehow better, now you change your tune to that since you empty your entire powerbar nuking spec DD is better? Make up your mind.

i was placing this in the same context you created when comparing your theurgists power bar to the sorcs i.e:

If each lifetap costs 75% of delve that means 28 lifetaps on that powerpool, a far cry from the 6-8 mr excaggerate suggested above. For comparison, the full body sorc could throw 32 spec DDs on the same powerpool, big whoop what a difference.

the figures would seem to be different. On an uncapped sorc (remember we are basing this discussion in the context of the optimum alb group - and in an optimum group you would have capped casters) the lifetap "on paper" does more damage (we all know this doesnt actually transfer to RvR anyway - so this argument is pretty mute) but on a good sorc i.e. capped speed, the DD does more damage