Good rvr fg alb

Fedaykin

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 23, 2003
Messages
1,103
anyway im off to bed and cba arguing more on this subject :

the original argument was over which would do more damage, a body sorc or mind sorc or your 40 body 34 mind sorc spec

the answer will always be the body sorc because he has access to both the spec nuke and the lifetap, unliek the other 2 specs. now utility wise the mind sorc maybe a little better off, but do you need 3 sorcs with the 44 aoe mezz? i think not. and in NF with mastery of focus body sorcs will rule the roost.

i leave you with this old favourite of mine, claim a victory if you wish.. you are right in a certian kind of way but i know i am aswell

argue.jpg
 

SethNaket

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Messages
202
Fedaykin said:
the lifetap casts 0.1 second faster than the DD: so to see an extra lifetap and therefore your extra DPS you would need to do 10 casts.
No, it's .12s faster if you're at max castspeed, and you need to do 1 cast to see the extra DPS.

so for every 10 DD's you get 11 lifetaps (i think)
No

and then the cycle would start again. i.e. every 20 dd's you can do 22 lifetaps.
No

11 lifetaps taken from the dmg on my screen equates to 3806 dmg and the 10 DD's equates to 3820 damage. So in the same time, the DD has done 14 more damage, with 1 less cast, and 3x11 = 33 less power spent. (the figures you gave for the extra power consumption)
No, cause it will not be "in the same time", the lifetap is .12 faster not .1. Saying you stop at 10 DDs is as arbitrary as saying you stop after 11 lifetaps. If we stop after 11 lifetaps(11 seconds) then the 10th DD hasn't even landed yet and suddenly lifetap "wins" by 3806 dmg vs 3438.

i was placing this in the same context you created when comparing your theurgists power bar to the sorcs i.e:
No, you were changing your tunes depending on what you were going to try next.

the figures would seem to be different. On an uncapped sorc (remember we are basing this discussion in the context of the optimum alb group - and in an optimum group you would have capped casters) the lifetap "on paper" does more damage
Not "on paper" does, just does.

(we all know this doesnt actually transfer to RvR anyway - so this argument is pretty mute)
You mean moot, and it does transfer to RvR, it's really simple: 346 DPS vs 341 DPS.

but on a good sorc i.e. capped speed, the DD does more damage
No, the ratio has nothing to do with the actual casting speed of the character, it's always the same.
 

Fedaykin

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 23, 2003
Messages
1,103
ok my calculations were a little off by 0.02 of a second (again with the maths)

so you can do 9 (almost 10 dd's) in the time of 11 lifetaps? and this is the time a lifetap will have overtaken a body sorc using spec nuke?

hands up all sorcs who cast for 9 seconds straight without being interrupted in rvr? or 9 seconds continuous casting without a split second pause - because the 0.12 of a second you have a slight pause the body sorc DD catches right back upto you and your DPS goes goes out the window

not mentioning the 5+ seconds you need ot be out of combat when you need ot hit mcl sooner (and believe me you will) :p

also, you mention mr exaggerator - well i think you are underestimating the power drain of tap - a lot of body sorcs still use the 35 spec DD to conserve power because the Tap takes so much
as i said, "on paper" not in reality

but you dont have a sorc - so you wouldn't know
 

SethNaket

Fledgling Freddie
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Jan 23, 2004
Messages
202
Fedaykin said:
ok my calculations were a little off by 0.02 of a second (again with the maths)

so you can do 9 (almost 10 dd's) in the time of 11 lifetaps? and this is the time a lifetap will have overtaken a body sorc using spec nuke?
Are you just stupid? For the godknowswhat'th time, the lifetap outdamages the DD as soon as the first lifetap lands. What's this obsession with casting 1 extra spell?
 

Fedaykin

Fledgling Freddie
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Dec 23, 2003
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1,103
SethNaket said:
Are you just stupid? For the godknowswhat'th time, the lifetap outdamages the DD as soon as the first lifetap lands. What's this obsession with casting 1 extra spell?

lol i must be missing something because in my screen shot my DD did more damage than my lifetap the first time they landed
 

SethNaket

Fledgling Freddie
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Jan 23, 2004
Messages
202
Fedaykin said:
lol i must be missing something because in my screen shot my DD did more damage than my lifetap the first time they landed
And the lifetap landed faster, thats why you divide by casttime to get the DPS of a spell, and DPS is what matters. By the time your spec DD landed the 2nd lifetap would already be on it's way. If you can't grasp such a basic concept it's no wonder you don't understand what I've been telling you.
 

Fedaykin

Fledgling Freddie
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seth said:
And the lifetap landed faster, thats why you divide by casttime to get the DPS of a spell, and DPS is what matters. By the time your spec DD landed the 2nd lifetap would already be on it's way. If you can't grasp such a basic concept it's no wonder you don't understand what I've been telling you.

DPS = damage per second? correct?

after 1 cast the lifetap is not ahead in damage...

it is ahead in speed.

the whole theory with DPS (and the thing which YOU dont seem to grasp) is that the lifetap does not do more damage OUTRIGHT - it can be casted more times in the same amount of time:

i quote Yosarian the sorc TL

Yosarian said:
The claim is that since the sorc lifetap is at a 2.5 second cast time and a spec nuke is 2.8 secs, the lifetap will outdamage the spec nuke over time due to getting in more casts.

I'm not saying this isn't the case. I'm just saying what has been presented so far in both threads is a long long way from proof.

Now if someone wants to put together a thorough test then go for it. I might have a go, but I don't have the time to in the next couple of days at least.

For a very simple validation of the concept consider this:

- You can cast 28 lifetaps in the same time it takes to cast 25 spec nukes. In this time:

For the same (extended time period), multiplying delve by the number of casts for a 219 delve spec nuke, a 209 delve spec nuke, and the sorc / cabby baseline LT, you get::

219 x 25 = 5475
209 x 25 = 5225
179 x 28 = 5012

.
 

Fedaykin

Fledgling Freddie
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Dec 23, 2003
Messages
1,103
anyway i was meant to be off to bed 30 mins ago will cya tomorrow.

<[GoL]Nervion> do u want smth feday?
<[PV]Fedaykin> whats your spec
<[GoL]Nervion> 40 body 36 mind
<[PV]Fedaykin> you ingame now
<[PV]Fedaykin> ?
<[GoL]Nervion> in pvp doing nothing, can log him
<[PV]Fedaykin> well just needed you to test somethign for me
<[PV]Fedaykin> wanted to see how many casts of lifetap you can do without going OOP
<[GoL]Nervion> k
<[GoL]Nervion> sec
* Quits: venom` (Signed off)
<[GoL]Nervion> hope they'll enough alp chuarras xD
<[GoL]Nervion> just made 22 lifetaps
<[GoL]Nervion> make it 20 w/o moving
* Joins: efussxQus[wiS
<[PV]Fedaykin> 20
<[PV]Fedaykin> do 5% mana per lifetap then?
<[GoL]Nervion> it seems yus
<[GoL]Nervion> only 5% power pool tho
<[GoL]Nervion> bonusses i mean
* Parts: efussxQus[wiS
<[PV]Fedaykin> ok
<[GoL]Nervion> that s all?
<[PV]Fedaykin> yeah m8 thanks a lot
<[PV]Fedaykin> question
<[PV]Fedaykin> if u had access to both the spec DD and lifetap
<[PV]Fedaykin> which would you use to nuke?
<[GoL]Nervion> if its last DD, DD ofc
<[PV]Fedaykin> ok thats all i needed to hear
 

Vasconcelos

Part of the furniture
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Dec 26, 2003
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4,022
Pin said:
3. Lifetaps do more damage per delve than DDs. The difference is (maybe strangely) related to the % return on the lifetap. i.e. the 60% alb mage level 50 baseline lifetap has a 6% bonus to damage above delve, whereas a 90% return level 47 dark sm spec lifetap has a 9% bonus, and the proc on the level 44 reaver flexible style Cobra (a 110% return lifetap) has an 11% bonus. This is something which has been the case for 'eternity' (in the DAoC sense, at least), and was put there to compensate for lifetaps being greatly inferior (due to the lower delves) if they do not heal you. Since lifetap lines had their delves increased, my opinion is that these bonuses should have been removed.
4. Speccing higher in a line you will do more damage than speccing lower:

Increasing spec from 1-10 you gain ~2% average damage per point, this decreases to the 0.8% range for 45-50, and 0.35% for 50+.

5. This means that on a strong target (such that you are not capping), the ranking for highest-damage single-target nuker (ignoring bolts for this discussion) in terms of dps is (assuming all 'non-spell-line factors' are equal - total spec, acuity, relics, RAs, resists, ToA, etc, etc):

Spiritmaster, using his level 47 spec lifetap - 79.8 DD/sec
Wizard, Runemaster, using level 47 spec DD - 78.4 DD/sec
Sorcerer, Cabalist, using level 50 base lifetap - 76.1 DD/sec
Cabalist, using level 45 spec lifetap - 75.9 DD/sec
Sorcerer, Theurgist, Eldritch, Enchanter, Mentalist, using level 45 spec DD - 74.8 DD/sec
Most other nukers, using level 50 base nukes - 69.0 DD/sec
Some nukers, using level 50 spec combo nukes (e.g. snare-nuke) - 59.8 DD/sec
...

NB: As being specced lower in the damage line will reduce the rankings,
e.g. dropping spec by 2 points as the nuke is 45 instead of 47 would reduce most spec-nukers to a 74.2 equiv.
dropping 15 points on a ~RR5 Mind Sorc using base lifetap would reduce to a ~70.8 equiv.
dropping 15 points on a ~RR5 caster using a baseline DD would reduce to a ~64.2 equiv.

6. If you are nuking a weak target (capping due to level, debuffs, resists, relics, ToA, etc), then the 'lifetap bonus' can be ignored and the comparison can be made purely on delve and speed:

Wizard, Runemaster, using level 47 spec DD - 78.4 DD/sec
Sorcerer, Theurgist, Eldritch, Enchanter, Mentalist, using level 45 spec DD - 74.8 DD/sec
Spiritmaster, using his level 47 spec lifetap - 73.2 DD/sec
Sorcerer, Cabalist, using level 50 base lifetap - 71.8 DD/sec
Cabalist, using level 45 spec lifetap - 69.6 DD/sec
Most other nukers, using level 50 base nukes - 69.0 DD/sec
Some nukers, using level 50 spec combo nukes (e.g. snare-nuke) - 59.8 DD/sec
...

Again, you can make further analysis on spec-level:
e.g. a Mind Sorcerer will be less likely to reach cap when nuking than a highly-specced nuker, etc.

Found this usefull as allways
 

[NO]Subedai

Fledgling Freddie
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SethNaket said:
And the lifetap landed faster, thats why you divide by casttime to get the DPS of a spell, and DPS is what matters. By the time your spec DD landed the 2nd lifetap would already be on it's way. If you can't grasp such a basic concept it's no wonder you don't understand what I've been telling you.

lol ur talking about a diffrent of about 0.1-0.2s after cast, gonna take a good few lifetaps to out preform with dps. and how many times do u nuke a target? 100?
 

Belomar

Part of the furniture
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Dec 30, 2003
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Um, why are people so slow to catch on here? SethNaket is laying it out pretty clearly: it is not about the actual damage numbers you see on the screen--only a teenager would be mesmerized by that--it is the damage you do over time (hence "DPS" for damage per second). Even if the lifetap does less damage per cast, it casts 0.12 second faster. As a thought experiment, try this--imagine you have a monstrous Doomsday spell that hits a single target for 10k dmg, but the cast time is 10 minutes. Looking at these numbers (and ignoring the impracticalities of 10 minute cast times in RvR), it is rather obvious that the Doomsday is much worse DPS than the Mage lifetap, even if it does pack a huge punch.
 

gia

Fledgling Freddie
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Apr 9, 2004
Messages
142
This discussion is amusing :) Seth has a much better understanding of how the game works it seems, he has outlined all his points very clearly and without any evident flaw... yet you are still arguing. As many experienced tanks have now figured out, this game is all about dps, frontloading is useless unless you can kill people in 1 shot, bigger numbers on hits are just that... bigger numbers.

What is also funny is that wizards haven't yet realized this, a 40b sorc is a better nuker than a 47f wizard... and this is without even considering the insane amount of utility the sorc has. Yes he will have a higher mana use, but what does it matter when you have yellow MR and so many other ways to gain mana nowadays? (fop, tartaros, sash, potions, mcl, raging power, etc.)

If any of you have a little memory you will remember that it was wizards that finally got smite nerfed, how long is it gonna take this time around?
 

Arnor

Fledgling Freddie
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Belomar said:
Um, why are people so slow to catch on here? SethNaket is laying it out pretty clearly: it is not about the actual damage numbers you see on the screen--only a teenager would be mesmerized by that--it is the damage you do over time (hence "DPS" for damage per second). Even if the lifetap does less damage per cast, it casts 0.12 second faster. As a thought experiment, try this--imagine you have a monstrous Doomsday spell that hits a single target for 10k dmg, but the cast time is 10 minutes. Looking at these numbers (and ignoring the impracticalities of 10 minute cast times in RvR), it is rather obvious that the Doomsday is much worse DPS than the Mage lifetap, even if it does pack a huge punch.


is doomsday spell aoe? and what specline is it? (it better be savagery)
 

AngelHeal

Part of the furniture
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And what about this?:

<a 2fg setup> can also be nice if ur just with a pve guild and want some fun.

group1:

Minstrel
Sorc
Pala
Merc
Merc
Armsman
Cleric
Cleric

group2: (caster group that backs the 1st group up)

Minstrel
Sorc
Sorc
Cleric
Cleric
Wizzard/theurg/cabby
Wizzard/theurg/cabby
Wizzard/theurg/cabby

it's maybe not fotm orso, but it works well.

Note, maybe it looks lame to run 2fg..
But ive noticed in rvr that 2fg vs 2fg are allot nice battles and bigger challange for both sides then 1fg vs 1fg..
 

Leel

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Messages
931
sorc
sorc
cabbie
cabbie
cleric
cleric
friar (for resists and bodyguard/grapple)
minstrel or paladin or reaver. If no pally,then no end regen, but their job will be to just interrupt anyway.
 

Alme

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
Messages
551
waok`whips said:
Please, don't patronise the reavers.

How many fucking ml8 RR5 reavers you think will be on EXCAL when NF comes out? ML10 maybe, but RR5? Please.. how many fucking reavers do you see emain nowadays?

It makes me laugh eachtime I see these posts and the reaver class gets mentioned.

Trust me, NF you will see a boom in reaver population no doubt, because of the hype about the 'reaver bomb', but without that RR5 ability, reavers will be looked upon just as useless as they are now, which is absolute BS, if you look at reavers now, you will realise what a great aid they are to groups.

It seems the only guilds which ever had balls with using reavers is FC,TB and HB. HB being probably the only guild now that still uses a reaver.

You will find most reavers will carry a tone of end/pow regen pots and normally have purge, I was always reluctant to use purge due to its re-use timer to its cost of 10 pts, you had to weigh the odds up alot more than you do with anyother class, the chance of being rooted etc, you had to think alot more about using purge, when and how etc.

Maybe NF will bring good to the class, but I think its a shame people shud this perfect class away for 2+ years then expect RR5 reavers to all of a sudden pop outta nowhere.

/rant

yes its sooo hard to get rr5
 

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