God, The Bible, The Creation of the Universe.

[Karl]

Due to the large amounts of faith related threads here recently I thought I would share this.

Personally I have seen a large shift of scientists move from the view point of "God and Science can’t co-exist" to a "God and Science may well link together."

Even Stephen Hawking in his book "A Brief History of Time" put across convincing arguments that the universe was created by an intelligent being, although, he does vow to keep on trying to dis-prove his beliefs... as any good scientist should do.

Below is a link to a book named "The Science of God" It talks about the creation, the 6 days in which genesis states the Earth was created and the 7th Day (This Era) in which God rests. It describes these days as not actually 24 hour days that we experience here on earth but as days from the viewpoint of somebody standing at the Point of Quark Confinement (God), this is where the universe began, all matter was confined into a small space and as the universe expands the "Perceived Days" Standing on from the point of quark confinement get shorter and link in extraordinarily well with how Science understands the various era's of the universes/earths creation and what happened at those times...

Have a read of this review...

http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/RelSci/Schrev.si.html

If any of you are interested further, buy the book, it is a very interesting read... even from a non-religious standpoint... It really does make you ask questions.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/076790303X/102-6123774-2767301?v=glance&n=283155

Discuss if you wish.. its interesting in my oppinion.

 

[Outlander]

more religion threads BOOOOOOO!

and yes there was a programme all about this on the BBC a few months ago and it was swell.

 

[Benedictine]

Load of rubbish

and god strike me down if Im wr.........................arggggggggggggggggg!!

 

[Naetha]

I get around the whole issue of God, Religion and Custard Pies but just not thinking about it too much

I think that the bible is probably one of the greatest works of fiction ever created. However, I do think that some of the concepts in the bible are well founded, and DO relate to the present day.

Ironically as a not too fussed Quaker, I have more problem with the whole idea of Jesus than with a God-like being.

The idea that there is something more to life than pure science seems plausible to me. I find it difficult to comprehend the idea of life (me, you, my cats etc) being just a collection of electrical impulses and chemical reactions rather than being something special, and possessing what I would call a soul.

 

[tris-]

i believe in pre-determinism.

which apparently means you some how believe in a creator.

but i dont believe in a creator

 

[Dukat]

i believe in pre-determinism.

which apparently means you some how believe in a creator.

but i dont believe in a creator

Isnt that similar to buddhism? the pre-determinism without a creator type thing? could be wrong though...

Sounds like an interesting book, will have to get it and have a read

Very interesting principle too, the idea that the seven days of creation are not days as in 24 hours but periods of time, it makes it alot more plausible for me atleast. I'd never thought about it like that at all, very interesting

 

[Saveus]

everyone just go budda!!!

 

[Lamp]

Everyone knows that the meaning of life, the universe, and everything in it, is................

 

[tris-]

me and a learned friend were talking in the pub one time about life on other planets.
we both come to the conclusion that there is no reason at all that all forms of life through the universe must be carbon based. absolutley none.

and stuff on our planet like the constants Pi and e^1

if you went to another planet where they established their natural constants are different to ours, then everything on that planet is going to be different isnt it.

 

[Karl]

me and a learned friend were talking in the pub one time about life on other planets.
we both come to the conclusion that there is no reason at all that all forms of life through the universe must be carbon based. absolutley none.

and stuff on our planet like the constants Pi and e^1

if you went to another planet where they established their natural constants are different to ours, then everything on that planet is going to be different isnt it.

yes... but the basic prinicples of physics will be the same... or close... taking into account various flutuations in space time and red/blue shift and the pull of gravity in that area...

take your priniciples to thier planet they you should be able to apply them to the surroundings... because they are looking at it in a different way does not make our way void.

Carbon based life forms are only considered the most common as it is the most stable type of particles to be able to amke a living organism...

I believe Silicon is the next best idea we have of something that could be the bases of forming another type of life...

Anyway im off home TTFN

 

[Outlander]

Ive seen plenty of birds that are highly silicone based

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

I agree that science doesn't explain everything but science is science and science and faith should not mingle. When you are going to teach Creatism or Intelligent design (which in my opinion is a load of bollocks) you oblige yourself to teach about Aboriginal Dreamtime, Native american Apache Tepeu and Gucumatz, Cherokee Great Spirit and each and every other theory aswell because those theories hold as much fact as the first two.

Science isn't fact, true but it is that which comes closest to it.
There are plenty of scientists that believe in one or another faith and that's all fine aslong as they can keep them seperated.
If the results of a scientist get influenced by faith he or she is no longer a good objective scientist.

 

[confused]

All a load of bollox... i am god, i wrote the bible, and the world created itself, from some cookie dogh and a few choclate chips.... no racial pun intended

 

[crispy]

Anyone wonder why its always 'the god' and not someone else?

If there should be such an universal thing wouldnt you be let to believe that all people in the world would believe the same thing? Or at least have the same general idea of how the world and end of life should be?

Ah wait We got a solution. Our religion is THE right one and everyone else is wrong...

Can't take it seriously when people write books with titles as: Fitting the Bible to the Data, and: The Science of God.

Someone please tell me where the bible give us some 'concistent data' as it says in the summary of The Science of God...

edit:

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind people being religious, but i do mind when people claim it to be something scientific.

 

[liloe]

i believe in pre-determinism.

I'm sorry but I oppose myself to being pre-determined cause it would mean that I have no influence on my life.

 

[Himse]

I believe God isnt real.

Why would he let wars, death, suffering happen?

Unless God = the devil also? :S

 

[noblok]

i believe in pre-determinism.

Hrm, I'm with liloe on this one. If everything is pre-determined, there is no such thing as free will. I can't quite believe that there is no free will, i'm too attached to morale for that . Unless you mean something else with pre-determinism off course.

I don't think you have to believe in a creator to believe in pre-determinism. Everything can be determined by physical laws etc without needing a creator. However, if I remember correctly, evidence seems to be suggesting that electrons aren't fully determined, but that the way they follow is partly coincidence as well. This would mean that determinism, from a scientific point of view, is unlikely.

Himse: God doesn't have to be an omnipotent god who interferes with everything on earth. You can also think that God just created the earth and deosn't bother with earth anymore after that. God can also be just someone to turn to when you're down, someone to comfort you.

You do say something right though. I don't think it's possible to believe in a god who interferes on earth. Taking all the explanations of science into account this seems silly.

 

[tris-]

noblock, are you really not a 40 yr old with a phd? i cant actually believe that

and you cant believe in pre-determinism

thing is, i cant see WHY you cant believe in it.
and im serious. the way i see things (and experienced things) is like this -

something happens
it causes something else to happen
the thing that happend last means there is no choice in what the next step is.

tbh, i do find it difficult to explain to people what it is. unless youve experienced things for your self, it doesnt really make sense.

best eg i can use is this -

someone asks you to pick a random number. you chose 8.

i assume you believe random really is random if you dont believe in pre-determinism/free will? good.
how can it be random if you have mentally thought about the number. try it. get someoene to ask you. you will notice your self conciously thinking hmm what number between x and z.
the fact you have chosen to pick something (and supposedly its random, so by logic you shouldnt of even thought about it) means there is a reason for it.

 

[crispy]

Who said that choosing a number in your head should be completely random? You even got a hard time making a computer spit out random numbers, but that has nothing to do with things being predetermined or not.

If you believe that everything is predetermined, why do you feel bad about yourself when you for example make an appointment with someone and you don't show up? It's predetermined that you wouldnt so why should you feel bad about it? Why come with some lame excuse when you clearly had an appointment with fate somewhere else?

And isnt it odd how people have to play the lotto to win

 

[noblok]

I'll admit. Free will is mly faith. There is absolutely no scientific proof for free will, nor will there ever be. This is due to the nature of science. Science searches efficient causes and what results from them. Since free will implies that there are some things for which there is no cause, it can't be proven by science.

The point is though that I have this strong experience/sensation of free will. If I make a choice, I don't feel like it's already decided beforehand what the result will be. I also have a sensation of responsibility, something which can't exist in a pre-determined world either. I know that there is no proof for this statement, but it goes so radically against my every intuition that I can't accept it.

Off course, in a way your actions are determined. If they weren't determined at all and were just random, there'd be no responsibility/free will either. My actions are determined by me. I belive that I, as a subject have the possibility to transcend every determining factor and make a choice which is not completely determined by extern factors.

There will be several factors who will influence my choice, true. When I get the choice between an apple and a pear, the fact that I like apples and dislike pears will play a very prominent role. This will not determine my choice though, untill I've made the choice there the possibility of taking the apple and taking the pear are both possible. When I have determined which one I'll take it's me who's decided it and it's more than a chemical process in my brain.

As I said though, this can be seen as a faith. I have no scientific proof to support my statement and it's heavily based on my everyday experience/intuition.

 

[Naetha]

Interesting article - whether you believe its legitimacy or not, it gives an interesting view on God.

http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal

As for the idea of God being a protector, and if anything a servant of us (i.e. obliged to prevent death, suffering, war etc), I think thats a very self-centred and typically traditional christian idea. In my idea of God, it is something that creates and oversees, but has no real concern for the lives going on, any more than we have concern for the house dust mites living all around us, which flourish because of us.

 

[tris-]

Who said that choosing a number in your head should be completely random?
If you believe that everything is predetermined, why do you feel bad about yourself when you for example make an appointment with someone and you don't show up?

And isnt it odd how people have to play the lotto to win

1. by definition, if its random then there shouldnt of been any thought in it. but thats impossible, you cannot truly randomly pick something. in some way you would of throught about it

2. i dont feel bad

3. no its not odd. if you dont have a ticket how can you win?

 

[Karl]

if you dont have a ticket how can you win?

I personally drive round on my bike every lottery night looking for old people who seem happy... then i get out my gank stick!

 

[Bracken]

God retired years ago

http://www.nobok.co.uk/Football/Legends/Other/Paul McGrath.aspx

 

[Lamp]

Religion v Science.

Its all based around belief.

Belief is a massively motivating force. Thats why there will ALWAYS be wars, terrorism, and acts of violence carried out in the name of religion. Doctrines are handed down from father to son ad infinitum. What one person believes is his personal opinion. There are no right and wrong beliefs on something that is beyond our ability to prove. We can no more prove God exists than proving he doesn't exist.

God is a convenient explanation for things we cannot explain and for things that are utterly beyond our comprehension. But for all I know God sneezed a zillion years ago and one of his snots resulted in the Big Bang.

Our universe could be a marble in a giant galactic bag of marble played by alien beings (Men in Black - end sequences - can't remember if its the first or second movie tho).

Personally, I believe that our universe is one of an unimaginable huge number of universes. Each one spawned from a "big bang". There exists a region of the time/space continuum which is a nursury for big bang singularities. The laws of physics as we know them do not exist there. It is utterly beyond our comprehension. We don't even have a theory of quantum gravity to explain singularities in black holes.

We've got a lot to learn.

 

[Sparx]

I believe God isnt real.

Why would he let wars, death, suffering happen?

Unless God = the devil also? :S

Ok look at it this way....

We all know/knew that kid at school, they real spoilt one, who got everything his own way, was a right arrogant git, was never satisfied and always demanded everything. Why? Because he knew he always got what he wanted.

Why are most of us happy and content? cause we have to work hard for what we want, we go through bad shit inour lives and we welcome the good stuff.

If you dont have the bad things in your life you will never appreiciate the better things.

Also look at God as someone once told me, He is a gardener. He only plants the seeds, he doesnt determine where we go with it

 

[Lamp]

Children terminally ill who don't make it into double figures.

The Bible-bashers will say "God is merciful. What he giveth he taketh away. Yay though I walk in the shadow of the valley of death blah blah blah".

Crap.

 

[Jeremiah]

Children terminally ill who don't make it into double figures.

The Bible-bashers will say "God is merciful. What he giveth he taketh away. Yay though I walk in the shadow of the valley of death blah blah blah".

Crap.

Any real Christian wouldnt give this response - because the reason the bible gives for any kind of death is sin. And I dont mean that people die because they do bad things, cos we all know children die even at birth, but that death is a result of the world being evil. God never intended death to be in the world.

 

[Karl]

Children terminally ill who don't make it into double figures.

The Bible-bashers will say "God is merciful. What he giveth he taketh away. Yay though I walk in the shadow of the valley of death blah blah blah".

Crap.

Depends how you look at it, from the christian point of view...

These children who die, according to the bible, go straight to heaven... for they are judged upon what has been revealed to them (not much).

So surley... if we are thinking "End Game" its better to die young and live in enternal paradise then to spend a life sinning and then spend eternity in hell.

Just one view point.

 

[noblok]

Any real Christian wouldnt give this response - because the reason the bible gives for any kind of death is sin. And I dont mean that people die because they do bad things, cos we all know children die even at birth, but that death is a result of the world being evil. God never intended death to be in the world.

Do you mean sin is the reason for death or do you mean that death is the punishment for sins?