God? Don't be silly!

[nath]

In no way really, i live by the norse way of life, "honor code" if you will and afterlife does not drive my life forwards. The way i act is not based on moral codes of gods, norse gods were bastards, didn't care and mostly toyd with people. It's the way of the people, a tribal thinking and "fair play" to those deserving it.

I'd be disappointed ofcourse, severely and perhaps would care even less(if that's possible) of death. Honorable death would go out the window.

To ask in reverse, how would your life change? What would you do different? Etc.

I assume you mean if I discovered that there was a God/afterlife etc. It's very difficult to know how I would behave, but I think no different.

One thing I find quite interesting in your response is that you say your morality/honour code doesn't come from the Gods. So why were you so fascinated in where atheist moral codes come from? You implied by way of your questions that morality comes from spirituality. That's why I asked if you *knew* that there were no spiritual realm, no God, how you would behave - you say no different. Why then is it difficult to understand an atheist moral perspective when your own morality doesn't stem from your religion?

 

[old.Tohtori]

I assume you mean if I discovered that there was a God/afterlife etc. It's very difficult to know how I would behave, but I think no different.

One thing I find quite interesting in your response is that you say your morality/honour code doesn't come from the Gods. So why were you so fascinated in where atheist moral codes come from? You implied by way of your questions that morality comes from spirituality. That's why I asked if you *knew* that there were no spiritual realm, no God, how you would behave - you say no different. Why then is it difficult to understand an atheist moral perspective when your own morality doesn't stem from your religion?

Oh but i didn't imply it, not by intent atleast. What i implied with it is that those "general rules of the land", do no harm etc, come from religion. Before it, it wasn't a norm. So essentially the "good people", atheist or not, have been infused with the moral code of the "good book". We would have to have an atheist be born alone, live alone and not be influenced by any religion or other such thing, even atheism, to see what moral codes would become. Basically set up a group of people in a town, let them live a good 200 years etc to rid of the religion influence on the morals.

I was more interested in how an atheist percieves his moral code(if any).

It's not difficult to understand how an atheist lives, "remove god" and that's it. But that's the thing really, i find it really hard to understand the atheist problem with people who believe in god, because without it, they wouldn't be/act different and if they did, it would be for the worse.

So god, as such, doesn't do any harm.

Be it a lie, whatever you wish to call it, it still has no effect on the life on the globe, so why the zeal to eradicate it from peoples "irrational minds"?

One good thing about your answer is that you didn't use the usual(from my experience) atheist answer of "well i don't think about what if there was a god because it's impossible", when, many ask the same thing you asked.

 

[Krazeh]

What i implied with it is that those "general rules of the land", do no harm etc, come from religion. Before it, it wasn't a norm. So essentially the "good people", atheist or not, have been infused with the moral code of the "good book".

And what exactly are you basing that claim on??

 

[nath]

Oh but i didn't imply it, not by intent atleast. What i implied with it is that those "general rules of the land", do no harm etc, come from religion. Before it, it wasn't a norm. So essentially the "good people", atheist or not, have been infused with the moral code of the "good book". We would have to have an atheist be born alone, live alone and not be influenced by any religion or other such thing, even atheism, to see what moral codes would become. Basically set up a group of people in a town, let them live a good 200 years etc to rid of the religion influence on the morals.

I was more interested in how an atheist percieves his moral code(if any).

It's not difficult to understand how an atheist lives, "remove god" and that's it. But that's the thing really, i find it really hard to understand the atheist problem with people who believe in god, because without it, they wouldn't be/act different and if they did, it would be for the worse.

So god, as such, doesn't do any harm.

Be it a lie, whatever you wish to call it, it still has no effect on the life on the globe, so why the zeal to eradicate it from peoples "irrational minds"?

One good thing about your answer is that you didn't use the usual(from my experience) atheist answer of "well i don't think about what if there was a god because it's impossible", when, many ask the same thing you asked.

I think it's quite a big assumption to suggest that we wouldn't have morality without religion. There's no doubt that it's shaped it, but religion is an entirely human made thing - without it who's to say what sort of moral codes we'd end up with instead. Perhaps we'd have formed some other way of life that has a moral code but with none of the superstition.

However, that's not really the point - it's 2009 and even if we used to need religion in order to feel compelled to do good, I really don't think it's necessary any more. I've no zeal to eradicate it, if I did I'd be doing a lot more than musing about it on a gaming forum. However, I do think it demonstrates terribly outdated thinking and as such, any time someone is so inclined to discuss it I'll weigh in.

 

[MYstIC G]

Good and Evil existed before religion as you have to define Good and Evil to have religion.

 

[Wij]

If God came down to Earth now and said "I've changed my mind. Killing babies is good now", would that make it good ?

 

[DaGaffer]

If God came down to Earth now and said "I've changed my mind. Killing babies is good now", would that make it good ?

Oh he's already done that. Lovely fella.

After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.

Doesn't end well for the ankle-biter.

 

[Wij]

Yes thanks - I'm aware there's some dodgy stuff in the Bible

I suppose you could argue that that is what God is allowed to do though - not what he wants us to do. But what if he added a new commandment for us humans to torture babies as often as possible ?

What would the moral choice be then ?

 

[Tom]

It would be completely illogical. Morality is not defined by religion, I'd venture the opinion that it is primarily defined by evolutionary advantage (which would include some element of social benefit). People didn't suddenly discover morality upon hearing the "Ten" Commandments; some bloke wrote those lines based upon existing moral and social rules.

You don't choose to not kill someone because it says so in a book; you make that choice because you possess sapience and empathy.

 

[nath]

Oh and Stephen Fry, arbiter of all knowledge everywhere, said that there were like what, 14 commandments originally?

 

[Tom]

Well I'm not sure it's that simple but yes, some passages contain more than others.

 

[nath]

On this theme did anyone watch Deborah 13: Servant of God on BBC3 last night? If not, it's probably worth catching on iplayer.

Incidentally, this is on right now. I question whether it's legit - it's so absurd it seems like it's almost tailored to piss people off. Plus the woman that asks Deborah the questions is totally shite.

 

[Scouse]

Hey, women would have had a fair pop at equal rights a couple of thousand years ago if the Romans hadn't saddled her with the cause of "original sin"


Lol. Gotta love a religion which says you're damned at birth....

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think it's quite a big assumption to suggest that we wouldn't have morality without religion. There's no doubt that it's shaped it, but religion is an entirely human made thing - without it who's to say what sort of moral codes we'd end up with instead. Perhaps we'd have formed some other way of life that has a moral code but with none of the superstition.

However, that's not really the point - it's 2009 and even if we used to need religion in order to feel compelled to do good, I really don't think it's necessary any more. I've no zeal to eradicate it, if I did I'd be doing a lot more than musing about it on a gaming forum. However, I do think it demonstrates terribly outdated thinking and as such, any time someone is so inclined to discuss it I'll weigh in.

Aye, we would have some morality, but modern day morality stems from religion. It's just how it went. Without religion, is speculation as much as a magical fairy in the sky. We don't know, can't know.

Society was formed very much on religion as well, kept people together tec and i do agree that it's necessity isn't as big now a days, but it doesn't mean it's wrong.

I'd still like to know what the big bad thing about believing in god is, if we take away the whole "organised religion" etc thing.

Just the jist of it, believing in god, why is it a bad thing?

Scouse, i've said the same thing about christians. In the viking era, women were considered in a very high position, with more rights then the men even in some cases. Christianity(and such) destroyed most of female rights

Wij, if god came doewn to earth and said "eternal damnation or kill a baby?", i think every single one of humans would whack a baby on the head.

 

[Wij]

Wij, if god came doewn to earth and said "eternal damnation or kill a baby?", i think every single one of humans would whack a baby on the head.

I don't mean a threat, self-interest needn't come into it. Just a meta-ethical thought experiment. If God said killing babies is good, would it be good ?

 

[old.Tohtori]

I don't mean a threat, self-interest needn't come into it. Just a meta-ethical thought experiment. If God said killing babies is good, would it be good ?

Can't answer from a christian point of view but:

If it was written in a book, i'd think about it 'cause it's subject to distortion. Most likely would tell 'em to f*ck off 'cause i don't have a quarrel with babies.

If a proven god said it in a boomy voice, i'd sure as hell act like the big guy in the sky says.

'cause essentially it would become down to self preservation.

If a guy with a gun says jump, you ask how high.

 

[mooSe_]

Wij, if god came doewn to earth and said "eternal damnation or kill a baby?", i think every single one of humans would whack a baby on the head.

Only if killing the baby granted me instant access to heaven, if it doesn't then I probably wouldn't get in even if I did kill the baby.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Only if killing the baby granted me instant access to heaven, if it doesn't then I probably wouldn't get in even if I did kill the baby.

Yeah, it was a "killing a baby gets you to heaven, otherwise not" thing.

But i bet that if god was proven, the whole world would turn into god'ism quite quickly

 

[Panda On Smack]

Has anyone here actually read the bible?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Has anyone here actually read the bible?

Bits and pieces, now and then, interesting read for sure.

 

[Wij]

Yeah, it was a "killing a baby gets you to heaven, otherwise not" thing.

But i bet that if god was proven, the whole world would turn into god'ism quite quickly

Still missing the point though. Whether you'd do it or not, is it good ?

 

[Scouse]

So essentially the "good people", atheist or not, have been infused with the moral code of the "good book". We would have to have an atheist be born alone, live alone and not be influenced by any religion or other such thing, even atheism, to see what moral codes would become.

Actually Toht, we have loads of fantastic examples of how human beings who've never been anywhere near the christian religion live their lives.

We've detailed histories of many indigenous tribes who haven't resorted to sky-fairy thinking, and they're all "good", in that they do no harm to the people around them.

So god, as such, doesn't do any harm.

Well, god himself may not (cause he doesn't exist) but his "teachings" (the bible) have done irreperable harm to the planet and its people. Aside from religious dogma (which is responsible for the persecution and deaths of millions of people for thousands of years) - how do we treat the planet?

The indigenous tribes that haven't been exposed to Christianity in any way all seem to share one thing in common - respect for the planet and nature. They understand that we're all part of the same system and harming the planet is harming yourself.

However, the bible says god gives humans "dominion" over nature. So for thousands of years we've treated it that way. Like the planet is our plaything. And we've fucked it.

"Do no harm". Heh

 

[old.Tohtori]

Still missing the point though. Whether you'd do it or not, is it good ?

At this moment, no. But it would become eventually a good thing to do.

Actually Toht, we have loads of fantastic examples of how human beings who've never been anywhere near the christian religion live their lives.

We've detailed histories of many indigenous tribes who haven't resorted to sky-fairy thinking, and they're all "good", in that they do no harm to the people around them.

Well, god himself may not (cause he doesn't exist) but his "teachings" (the bible) have done irreperable harm to the planet and its people. Aside from religious dogma (which is responsible for the persecution and deaths of millions of people for thousands of years) - how do we treat the planet?

The indigenous tribes that haven't been exposed to Christianity in any way all seem to share one thing in common - respect for the planet and nature. They understand that we're all part of the same system and harming the planet is harming yourself.

However, the bible says god gives humans "dominion" over nature. So for thousands of years we've treated it that way. Like the planet is our plaything. And we've fucked it.

"Do no harm". Heh

Those tribes, i have to say, do have own worship going on too. If i remember correctly, earth, sun, whatnot, always some higher power.

Not to mention, modern rules are not tribe rules, tribes defend and keep own tribe alive, others are met with hostility. This wouldn't work in a society this size. Tribe culture is pack animal mentality more then society.

And yes, bad things have been done in NAME of religion, but so has any "lots of humans in one place".

But again, what is the harm of a person believing in god these days? Individually, one persno, believes in god, is not a mass murdering f*ck or a suicide bomber, what's the problem?

 

[Scouse]

Has anyone here actually read the bible?

Cover to cover mate. Went to a Catholic school. It's an "entertaining" read

 

[Scouse]

At this moment, no. But it would become eventually a good thing to do.

Am I missing the point with you saying killing a baby would eventually become a good thing? (Not read it all)

pffffffft. would it fuck. And I'd wager that 90% of people would ditch their religion if that's what it said...

But again, what is the harm of a person believing in god these days? Individually, one persno, believes in god, is not a mass murdering f*ck or a suicide bomber, what's the problem?

One person believing in more or less anything isn't bad. Lots of people? Well, it's demonstrably catastrophic...

 

[old.Tohtori]

Am I missing the point with you saying killing a baby would eventually become a good thing? (Not read it all)

pffffffft. would it fuck. And I'd wager that 90% of people would ditch their religion if that's what it said...

One person believing in more or less anything isn't bad. Lots of people? Well, it's demonstrably catastrophic...

The killing babies thing was in reply to "if god said it's good to kill babies".

Eventually, with an actual god pulling the strings, it would become a norm.Anything really becomes a norm. Couple of decades ago you couldn't dream of telling someone "in the future, free porn for everyone"

Aye, that's my point. One person and belief in god doesn't matter and as such, belief in god or religion isn't a bad thing, but when you put a lot of humans in a same belief system, they get human ideas and things hti the fan.

If atheism took a 75% grasp on humanity, i think at some point, religion would become unlawful and people would actually be hunted for it.

 

[DaGaffer]

pffffffft. would it fuck. And I'd wager that 90% of people would ditch their religion if that's what it said...

And yet there have been religions in the past that have said pretty much that. There's a lot of evidence to suggest the Carthaginian religion (Baal) demanded child sacrifice, and not just as a one-off but systematically, and all of the Meso-American cultures (Toltecs, Maya, Aztecs) were big on that as well. I don't think you should underestimate the power of collective thinking and group pressure to accommodate pretty bizarre and abhorrent behaviour. If "God" (or a reasonable space alien facsimile with near omnipotent powers), came along and said "give me baby sacrifices", I think you'd be amazed how many people would comply, and even enthusiastically support the idea. After all, we've plenty of recent examples where people have done worse with less justification.

 

[Scouse]

Couple of decades ago you couldn't dream of telling someone "in the future, free porn for everyone"

Couple of decades ago I did just that after finding a porn mag thrown over our back fence!

 

[Scouse]

If "God" (or a reasonable space alien facsimile with near omnipotent powers), came along and said "give me baby sacrifices", I think you'd be amazed how many people would comply,

I reckon, if he came along now (as what I thought the question was) I think most of us would try to fight him.

Die, yes, but fight

 

[Scouse]

If atheism took a 75% grasp on humanity, i think at some point, religion would become unlawful and people would actually be hunted for it.

I disagree completely. You need a belief system to act like a total wanker - and since we've already established that atheism is the absence of a belief system then it wouldn't happen.

If you're continuing to argue that atheism is the "belief that there's no god" however, I'll remove myself from this thread, never to return again

And yet there have been religions in the past that have said pretty much that. ... After all, we've plenty of recent examples where people have done worse with less justification.

Ah the dangers of holding religious beliefs eh?