God? Don't be silly!

[mooSe_]

There seem to be a lot of ideas here and as far as I am concerned not all of them are correct.

Do not confuse religion with having faith.

a quote:
Religions are not based on evidence but on faith.
Atheism is based on empirical evidence.

What empirical evidence do you have? if there was empirical evidence there would be no religion and no one would belief there was a god. So this cannot be true.

Comparing science with faith/religion is silly imho, one is based on feeling while the other is based on proof or is a theory. It would be like comparing apples and rice.



As for me well I think the religions are incorrect as most of them dont even follow their own teachings. And what a person does in his or her home well they should decide that for themselves.

My point is not that I have empirical evidence which disproves religion. My position is that without evidence for religion then there is no reason to believe in it. For example, if your mind comes into the universe as a 'blank slate' (tabula rasa ;p) then you can find a reason to believe in the physical objects with which you come into contact with, such as apples and rice, because you can experience them with your senses. You cannot experience god with you senses (yahyah some people claim to have done it) as he is transcendental. Thus my blank slate mind has no reason to create a belief in the existence of god. People only aquire their knowledge of religions because of their upbringings/church/holy books.
I only accept knowledge of things if I can logically prove them or if I have evidence for them.
Also, I'm not trying to directly compare religion and science. What I am saying is that the world is made up of physical objects. Religion proposes that there are things outside of this realm of physical objects. I reject this because my method of aquiring knowledge requires logic/evidence. So, using my method of aquiring knowledge, I cannot claim to know that god is real, as he cannot be proved, only believed in through faith. To summerise; I do not accept faith as a method of aquiring knowledge, thus I do not accept religion as something that people can claim to know the truth of.
Sorry that I've overtaken this thread with my insane preaching but I get a bit over excited when people start talking about religion, or any philosophy for that matter.

 

[fettoken]

That's entirely incorrect - a lot of people discuss things because they enjoy the discussion. The fact that this is on an internet forum is irrelevant and will only become relevant if people start spouting ridiculous abuse.

How can you "enjoy" discussing such a thing? You talk about it as it was just a random discussion about lets say bacon. And the fact that on an internet forum, everything is just words. You don't see the person, you can't read a person based on just words. You can't judge a person based on just words. And that seems what the thread is about, judging people.

 

[mooSe_]

Gah more posts sneak in while I'm typing my replies!

Discussing this on an internet forum is the most epic of epic fails to begin with.

Because, that is the only reason anyone discusses such a thing, to gain recognition for their belief, so they can actually begin to believe it themselves.

Leave us alone, if you don't like discussing religion on an internet forum then don't, but I enjoy discussing religion regardless of medium.

Discussing my beliefs with others allows me to logically present them in a manner that clarifies them for myself aswell as others. So in a way it does help me to believe in my own beliefs as it shows me that there is logical grounds for my beliefs.
However, if somebody was to provide criticisms which I couldn't respond to then I would be forced to alter my beliefs (like carl sagan said) so this discussion isn't only for the benefit of our respective egos, it allows us to criticise and improve upon our belief systems.

 

[throdgrain]

Discussing this on an internet forum is the most epic of epic fails to begin with. Why can't everyone just keep to their own ideals and beliefs instead of desperately trying to convince themselves and others.
Because, that is the only reason anyone discusses such a thing, to gain recognition for their belief, so they can actually begin to believe it themselves.

Frankly I like this answer.

 

[fettoken]

You said religion. This proves my point. Ah well *leaves*

 

[nath]

How can you "enjoy" discussing such a thing?

I enjoy discussions/debates. I don't really want to derail this thread in to a "why are we talking about this" so I'll leave it there. No one is forcing you to take part in the thread, you don't have to read anything that I or anyone else is saying. If you want to discuss the issues in this thread, by all means continue - if you want to discuss why we're discussing it I'd appreciate it if you created a separate thread for that - as these things can go off track very easily.

 

[Lightfighter]

[Destealths]

Also, I'm not trying to directly compare religion and science.

I reject this because my method of aquiring knowledge requires logic/evidence.

I do not accept faith as a method of aquiring knowledge, thus I do not accept religion as something that people can claim to know the truth of.

Although you've made yourself clear to not compare religion with science, I'd recommend not comparing (scientific) knowledge with faith. Having faith has nothing to do with aquiering knowledge, and the fact that it istn't possible to gain knowledge by having faith goes without saying.

Anyways, I agree with you fully, and imo religion is the greatest scam of history... But I won't waste my time listing my reasons since no one is going to change their mind just like I'm not going to become religious by reading this thread, so I won't be bothered, and I'm surprised others are, but I don't mind really, why would I?

[Uses Vanish]

The fact that this is on an internet forum is irrelevant and will only become relevant if people start spouting ridiculous abuse.

The fact that you're arguing over the Internet is never irrelevant, it can have more or less significance depending on the topic, but is never irrelevant.

 

[nath]

The fact that you're arguing over the Internet is never irrelevant, it can have more or less significance depending on the topic, but is never irrelevant.

I don't really agree with that. Nothing I've said here I wouldn't say if I were having this discussion face to face. I expect it's the same for most others. Sure, the fact that it's an internet forum has effects on the discussion (the main one being you have plenty of time to compose your responses), but like I said - I don't feel it's relevant. We're still able to have a decent discussion about the subject.

 

[Lightfighter]

I don't really agree with that. Nothing I've said here I wouldn't say if I were having this discussion face to face. I expect it's the same for most others. Sure, the fact that it's an internet forum has effects on the discussion (the main one being you have plenty of time to compose your responses), but like I said - I don't feel it's relevant. We're still able to have a decent discussion about the subject.

I agree that it might be of little importance in this case, I just wanted to point out that completely dismissing it like you did is foolish. So let's leave it at that x]

 

[nath]

I agree that it might be of little importance in this case, I just wanted to point out that completely dismissing it like you did is foolish. So let's leave it at that x]

Well it's a semantics thing - I wasn't suggesting that it has no effect, merely that those effects weren't relevant. Anyway - boring point going nowhere, so yes lets leave it there .

 

[Scouse]

OK, I'm back late to this, so all I'll say is this (until maybe I've read some more):

You're saying vegetarianism and religion aren't comparable, then how do you compare atheism and religion? Are they both religion if not way of life? Can you explain it? If you can't, why do you care?

I have explained it.

I don't compare atheism and religion. I went to great lengths to demonstrate mathematically how they are NOT the same. How they can't be compared in the context you're after.

It's not my fault if the point passed you by...


Now I'll attempt to answer some of your questions:

What happens when you die?

Lots of things. Your family and friends become upset. Chances are there's a funeral and maybe even a "religious" ceremony which could help some people come to terms with their loss.

As for you? Your body decomposes into constituent chemicals. Chances are some of the atoms will end up in the soil, or if you're cremated, the air and wherever they're scattered. In billions of years when the sun blows up they'll be scattered across the universe and maybe, just maybe, many billions of years after that they'll become part of another life form! Does that make you feel good?

Why do you bother doing anything right if it doesn't matter in the end?

It makes me feel good. I like the reaction in other people. Sometimes you can suffer adverse reactions for not doing it the "socially acceptable way". It's certainly not fear of a deity that makes me.

What is your reason for doing anything?

I'd sit here in my grots doing nothing, which would bore the shit out of me otherwise.

Do you judge your parents the same way? Do you challenge them?

I take this as a two-parter. My dad is long dead. I scattered his ashes when I was 4 years old into the Menai Straights. My mother I challenge whenever I see her. She's long since given up religion - but believes everything she reads in the papers.

We argue a lot, but I love her

Are you enganged, dating, seeing, whatever, a person who is "illogical and irratinal"?

Most people are illogical and irrational. However, religious? Yes, I have done. I'm glad we split up, but I stuck at it for a long time

If you do, isn't that "silly"?

It wasn't silly at first as I was brought up religiously, but coming to the opinion that organised religion was a negative force in our lives and being unable to change her mind meant that I couldn't stand to be with her any more.

I'm happier without her.

Where...big one for you...where did your morals come from?

Very complex, and my opinions have changed over time and constantly evolve as I learn more about the world about me. This learning process is a deliberate and concious choice for me (which it isn't for many). I read constantly and am trained as a scientist so am critical both of myself (when challenged) and others.

My morals, as they stand, are the sum of my intellect and my desire to please other people. Maybe that's selfish, but ho-hum

How does an atheist find comfort in hard times? Hope?

I occasionally suffer from depression. Each time I come through it I feel stronger, in part because I haven't needed to resort to denying what I understand to be true. I also have friends. Lots of friends who I can rely on if the shit really hits the fan

Hope? I don't really understand the concept as it applies to me. Not trying to be contentious - but I've got no place for it. If I have problems I act to solve them. Wishing for them to solve themselves is naive IMHO.

How does a lonely (alone completely)atheist find comfort, like say, a church provides?

Well, a church provides friends to stop a religious person being lonely. I use my friends and relatives. If I didn't, I guess....suicide?

Little timmy, who thought 2+2 is 5, just lost his grandma, what do you tell him if he asks where she is?

Little Beth and Sophie, my sisters kids, lost a close relative when they were younger. I told them the truth - that it happens to everyone and what they should try to focus on is the good and happy memories that they had of him.

No point in lying to children. Death and loss and learning to cope with it is part of life. As they've got older we've discussed this (and religion) and I've told them what I said above. They like the idea.


That good enough for ye, Toht?

 

[Kryten]

As far as the argument side of this thread goes : like religion and faith, please define the difference between argument and debate. Or perhaps it's merely a thread to collate people's different views. After all if we all thought the same thing it'd be a damned boring place, and argument/debate drives the world forward (and backwards sometimes, but it moves it!)

The one thing I like about the *modern civilised* world - i.e. not that of extremist views, certain parts of middle east, the subjects of the aforementioned documentaries etc - is just how well mixtures of religions, faiths, backgrounds and what not get along. That alone in my eyes is more important (and probably more true) than the ideals behind religion and most faiths in the first place. Of course it's not my place to suggest that, but it makes me feel proud to know I can mix with as many catholics, christians, muslims, buddhists, agnostics, atheists etc etc as I please and in 99.9% of cases eachothers faith or religion is not even considered as a reason to agree or disagree with what another says.

 

[old.Tohtori]

No, that's not what I was saying. I was saying that religious people are religious - that's a tautology. I'm not discussing organised religion at all here, rather the method of thinking that allows people to believe in things that are unprovable/untestable. Religious people, by definition, have a religious belief (whatever it may be). The only thing you can say about atheists is that they do not, generalising that atheists go on anti-religious rants is incorrect. Believing something is an ACTIVE process. Everyone is born an atheist because they are a blank slate, they have no religious beliefs.

Of course not all religious folk are the same, but they have a common factor - their religion (regardless of what it is, they have religious beliefs.. by definition).

Back to little Timmy and 2+2=5, should that thought process be corrected? Should he not be told that it's incorrect, rather than "well that's a valid opinion, but here's what I think". 2+2 does not equal 5, and so he should shown this - not by saying "it's 4, because it is" because *that* would be preaching. Explaining to him why 2+2=4 so that he understands, rather than just mimics the reaction is not preaching, it's educating.

Yes, religious people are religious and atheists are not. There's a common factor there, no matter how it's twisted. Now if the only part you want to disbute in religion is the god aspect, which i told is the most common atheist lifeline, then fine, let's discuss that. But let's not discuss religion=god 'cause that's false. We might be trying to argue different points here, seems to go nowhere atleast.

Quite right, not all religious people are same, not alla theist are the same, but as long as you can name yourself something, you're part of it. Common factor as any.

Like i said about lil timmy; teaching facts and teaching about a belief system are two very different things. We can prove 2+2=4, we can't prove god either way. Until we can, it should be left for lil timmy to decide, not an atheist, buddhist or christian.

OK, I'm back late to this, so all I'll say is this (until maybe I've read some more):

I have explained it.

I don't compare atheism and religion. I went to great lengths to demonstrate mathematically how they are NOT the same. How they can't be compared in the context you're after.

It's not my fault if the point passed you by...


That good enough for ye, Toht?

Yes, answers good, gives perspective and same as with Moose, won't argue them

The point i was making with what i said was that if atheism and religion can't be compared, why argue against religion with atheist reasoning? What is the bother, problem and/or issue there?

I understand why a satanist would start on a christian, or why a vegetarian would start on a meat-eater, but i don't understand hwy an atheist starts on a religion if they don't compare at all.

 

[DaGaffer]

What happens when you die?

Your body returns to the earth or if you're cremated, ash. That's it. The mind is a function of the body, so once that stops working, no mind, no, "you" any more.

Why do you bother doing anything right if it doesn't matter in the end?

Doesn't matter to who? There are plenty of people who's lives have had meaning for other people after their death. Leaving behind some legacy is a normal aspiration. And if nothing else, most people pass on their genes, which, if life can be said to have a purpose (and I don't think it does), then that's it.

What is your reason for doing anything?

See above. Pass on genes, hopefully leave something behind that benefits others in some small way.

Do you judge your parents the same way?

Oh yes. I'm happy to point out religion's absurdities to my Mum, and my Dad and I were very much on the same page when he was alive anyway. And I've always been confident in healthy debate with my parents.

Do you challenge them?

See above. Damn straight.

Are you enganged, dating, seeing, whatever, a person who is "illogical and irratinal"?

My girlfriend is catholic, does the whole crossing herself when we go past churches thing etc. etc. I've had to go into a church a couple of times with her now and she jokes I'll burst into flames when I cross the threshold. She knows full well I find her religion silly, especially as I know more about it than she does. She's the classic Irish catholic; catholic because that's just what Irish people are. If anything I'd describe her as superstitious, not religious. Still love her though.

If you do, isn't that "silly"?

Why is it silly? Its part of her personality. She has flaws and so do I (I know, I know, shocking isn't it?) Having said that, her beliefs and my lack of belief may become an issue if we have kids because I'm firmly of the opinion that children shouldn't be indoctrinated into any religion until they're old enough to make decisions for themselves (say, around 40 ) and she of course would want christening and confirmation and all that shit. We'll cross that bridge if we come to it.

Where...big one for you...where did your morals come from?

My parents, my family and the mores of British society, which I recognise is part of a long Judeo-Christian tradition. But almost all religious teachings, when you strip away all the dogma and afterlife stuff, have the same basic message, "do unto others as you'd expect them to treat you", and "be nice". You shouldn't need the threat of punishment or reward in an imagined afterlife to aspire to that philosophy.

How does an atheist find comfort in hard times? Hope?

Through friends and family hopefully, and then again, sometimes you don't find "comfort" and you have to look reality in the eye. Once again, making stuff up so you have comfort is a bizarre way to build a society if you look at it dispassionately. My counter-argument would be if people didn't have the emotional crutch of an afterlife and truly understood they only got their threescore and ten and then they were done, they might not waste so much of their lives.

How does a lonely (alone completely)atheist find comfort, like say, a church provides?

See above. Sometimes you don't. On the other hand you could go out and meet people...

 

[ECA]

Theres this invisible dude who's gonna burn the shit outta you and torture you for ever if you're bad, but if you're good you get to eat food and listen to harp music all day.

Neither option sounds like fun to me.

 

[Turamber]

Can't be arsed to read the whole thread but parents have to do what they think is right. Atheist parents will present atheist beliefs and values to their children, Muslim parents will present Muslim beliefs and values, Christian parents will present Christian beliefs and values et al, ad nauseum.

I don't agree with people who withdraw their children from the state school system, but this is not limited to God botherers, Atheists and agnostics also do this. It is personal choice and not necessarily limited to a dark religious subtext of wanting to pervert children!!11

Really, like I said before, some of you would get jobs in the Daily Mail.

 

[old.Tohtori]

One point i'd like to raise up from all the answers;

The reason to doing things.

You(most) say that it's to make others happy, to leave a legacy etc.

But after death, you won't mind in any case since you stop to exist, so why care?

You won't have regrets or remorse on your deathbed about being a bastard, the memories of others won't effect you, it doesn't mean one ounce what mark you leave on this earth.

Is it jsut to keep you happy during the time your body functions? Wouldn't you be happier doing f*ck all you want? Why work, why not go out to the world and waggle your weewee about different females in different countries?

Keeping the species alive and breeding is a given natural instinct, that would be non-religious in it's full, so why in a relationship? Why not make bountiful lot of babies with bountiful lot of women? No kids+atheist=not compute.

I'm trying to figure out/understand the motive behind atheism, driving force, etc so that's why i ask a lot.

 

[ECA]

 

[DaGaffer]

One point i'd like to raise up from all the answers;

The reason to doing things.

You(most) say that it's to make others happy, to leave a legacy etc.

But after death, you won't mind in any case since you stop to exist, so why care?

Its called self-actualisation. Just because you don't exist anymore doesn't mean what you did in life doesn't have meaning. I think you suffer from a lack of empathy, which is why you don't get this. What you do in life isn't always about you.

You won't have regrets or remorse on your deathbed about being a bastard, the memories of others won't effect you, it doesn't mean one ounce what mark you leave on this earth.

Why wouldn't you have regrets or remorse? An atheist isn't somehow immune to regret. And your actions do have meaning. Of course they do, they have meaning for those they affect. I get the impression that you feel that meaning can only come from where you end up after you're dead. By extension, I get the impression that your moral code is highly defined by the fear (or hope) of your afterlife prospects, and you just don't get the idea that some of us are perfectly capable of having a moral code that isn't reliant on reward or punishment in the afterlife. In fact, I'd feel this way even if I did believe in God. You shouldn't live your life based on the (extremely ambiguous) ideas of Heaven and Hell.

Is it jsut to keep you happy during the time your body functions? Wouldn't you be happier doing f*ck all you want? Why work, why not go out to the world and waggle your weewee about different females in different countries?

That's a perfectly reasonable question. The reality is that most people don't have the money to do that, and actually, keeping your hand permanently in the cookie jar gets boring after a while. But what you're doing is actually showing with this question is one of the reasons why religion exists; to exercise social control.

Keeping the species alive and breeding is a given natural instinct, that would be non-religious in it's full, so why in a relationship? Why not make bountiful lot of babies with bountiful lot of women? No kids+atheist=not compute.

See above. Relationships have an intrinsic value of their own, irrespective of whether you have kids. Many couples never do. Some people can't have kids, and you're right, and atheist in a depressed state of mind may wonder what life's all about. But humans manage to live valuable lives, lives that have meaning, even if they don't have kids. God doesn't need to be part of that equation.

I'm trying to figure out/understand the motive behind atheism, driving force, etc so that's why i ask a lot.

This is your fundamental problem; you keep trying to establish an equivalence between atheism and religion; basically saying they're both just lifestyle choices and nothing else. This isn't the case. There isn't a "motivation" to be an atheist. Most atheists follow a path like this:

born (no religion) > grow up (indoctrinated into their parent's religion to a greater or lesser degree) > begin to question said religion (either its specific rules or religious ideas in general) > look at the odds of their religion reflecting reality > reject religion (either the specific religion or religion in general). At this stage most people become agnostic; which usually means they like the idea of the universe having meaning, but none of the organised religions stack up. Some people go the extra step and say, "on balance, there's no evidence for a creator at all, which means no afterlife". This isn't a choice and it isn't a belief; its an assessment of probability. This is why atheism is different to religion. No religious person makes this assessment.

 

[Zenith.UK]

If I have to label myself, I'd call myself an atheist with humanist values.
I don't believe in an almighty supernatural entity or personification because I consider a deity to be man's interpretation of the cause of events. Take a lightning strike for example. If you're hit by lightning then some may take it as some sign from the heavens, while others will just say "Bad luck!".

I have to disagree with this suggestion...

Can't be arsed to read the whole thread but parents have to do what they think is right. Atheist parents will present atheist beliefs and values to their children, Muslim parents will present Muslim beliefs and values, Christian parents will present Christian beliefs and values et al, ad nauseum.

I was brought up in a Christian household and rejected Christianity before I was a teenager. When my grandmother died, I told my little girl that she'd gone to Heaven (even though I personally don't believe in Heaven). When one of the little boys at her creche died from meningitis, she said that he'd gone to Heaven and that Grandma would look after him. We didn't tell her that, she came up with that connection herself. It was her way of coping with the situation and I wasn't going to disabuse her of it, even if I didn't agree with it.

We tell our children to believe in a number of beings with supernatural abilities.
Santa Clause/Father Christmas... a jolly old man with a big white beard who brings presents to good boys and girls.
Tooth Fairy... a fantastic being who converts teeth into money.
Cupid... a little baby with wings and a bow. His arrows pierce the heart causing the sensation of love.

Every one of those examples cannot be explained by rational means, and yet they cannot be disproved either. The end of "A Miracle On 34th Street" has a great ending comparing belief in God to belief in Santa.


We have our own fantasy with regard missing socks in the washing machine. When the machine goes into spin dry cycle, it is actually generating a vortex into another realm where the sock fairy lives and can take socks from our world. That's why you can never find a matching pair of socks from the washing machine. They don't go down the drain, they don't get lost in the machine, they just DISAPPEAR!

Okay, so it's a silly point but it helps illustrate a reality to the kids... that you can't find a matching pair of socks easily.

 

[Scouse]

Atheist parents will present atheist beliefs and values to their children

Doh!

I'm done with this

 

[Bob007]

What happens when you die?
Know answer to this thread one way or another. Move to Milton Keynes*.


*Milton Keynes reference made me giggle

 

[old.Tohtori]

DaGaffer, i'd appreciate you discussing the matter, not keeping on the offensive all the time about MY life, especially since you sometimes mix in heaven and hell and sometimes the norse mythology.

IF you however decide to flame me for no reason, do ti in the right context.

Now, the key point of my questions was that why personally do you mind what you leave behind when after death there's nothing.

I'm not basing my life on anything different from you, making others feel good etc, leaving a legacy yada yada, but i don't understand the need to do so if there's no reason for you AFTER death.

And about your atheist cycle of life; you still make a decision to do so, aka, make a choice of life per say. In that manner, atheism, agnostic, is still a way of life as much as the way of life of a religious prson(minus god and afterlife) is. Just different motives.

Why infact, is the motive of afterlife bad?

What is the problem of a person living with christian values?

Now don't say "religion causes wars" or "it's a money grabbing industry", but on the individual level. What's the harm of believing?

Oh and ECA; obviously it's not so obvious as it would need to be a fact to be obvious

 

[old.Tohtori]

By the way, i hae to make clear that i don't hate any form of religion, believe in people having their own lives and am NOT trying to sell you odin and his band of superheroes.

I just like to discuss things, as i see nath likes to do so too.

And i find it really weird that when we make a topic that is DELIBERATELY controversial and should 'cause flames and such, there is very little :lol:

 

[DaGaffer]

DaGaffer, i'd appreciate you discussing the matter, not keeping on the offensive all the time about MY life, especially since you sometimes mix in heaven and hell and sometimes the norse mythology.

IF you however decide to flame me for no reason, do ti in the right context.

Once again, you're taking an attack on religion as a personal attack. You keep coming back to this. People keep pointing it out and you keep ignoring it. The only way to have this debate is to use examples, and since you seem to be wilfully obtuse, it leads to questioning of your motivations for your religious choices. You have a very specific logic that keeps popping up in everything you post. As I said before, you lack empathy.

Now, the key point of my questions was that why personally do you mind what you leave behind when after death there's nothing.

I'm not basing my life on anything different from you, making others feel good etc, leaving a legacy yada yada, but i don't understand the need to do so if there's no reason for you AFTER death.

And you refuse to accept that others have no problem with living a decent life without the belief in an afterlife. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it invalid. The difference is, that an atheist comes to their conclusions based on evidence not faith. And this has been pointed out to you dozens of times but you refuse to accept it.

And about your atheist cycle of life; you still make a decision to do so, aka, make a choice of life per say. In that manner, atheism, agnostic, is still a way of life as much as the way of life of a religious prson(minus god and afterlife) is. Just different motives.

A choice based on evidence and reasoning, NOT faith. Its not the "belief" that matters, its how you come to the conclusion that separates atheists from the religious. I specifically tried to explain that its not about "motives" but you choose to ignore that. Again.

Why infact, is the motive of afterlife bad?

What is the problem of a person living with christian values?

Because its NOT TRUE. That's the point. An atheist has come (by deductive reasoning - I'll say that, AGAIN) to the conclusion that there isn't an afterlife. A religious person hasn't worked out there's an afterlife through any kind of reasoning.

Now don't say "religion causes wars" or "it's a money grabbing industry", but on the individual level. What's the harm of believing?

Oh and ECA; obviously it's not so obvious as it would need to be a fact to be obvious

I'm not going to get into a debate about the evils of organised religion; there are plenty of demonstrable examples out there, but at an "individual level", I personally don't want to live my life based on a lie. All the evidence I can evaluate tells me there's no God and no afterlife, certainly not in Judeo-Christian sense. For me to continue to act as if there was a God, in the face of all the evidence, is the equivalent of me sticking my fingers in my ears and going "la, la, la I'm not listening".

And you've sucked me in to this pointless exercise, again. Your insistence on wilfully ignoring everything that anyone writes is just tiresome. It would be refreshing if just for once you could attempt to give a reason for your religious beliefs with something more coherent than "it feels right". If you could have the debate based on logic rather than feelings, it might be worth continuing the debate, but as I don't think you can do that, we should end this now.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Your whole post was assumptions on what i'm talking about. Funny, since i'm not talking and/or ignoring like you say.

You take my questions as different questions then they are, and as such, you think i'm doing "something" and turn it into an attack of what i do.

"Lack of empathy", "your life is absed on this", "you try to establish link between religion and atheism" etc, assumptions after another.

That's why you see me as "ignoring points", 'cause you keep taking things in wrong context and turning it against me.

Per example; i asked several questions to understand the atheism thing better, yet even in those cases, it somehow i your mind became necessary to say "you lack empathy" etc.

How about YOU discuss things instead of attack every single time.

If you DO want to talk about MY motives, beliefs etc, then do so, but as you might see, after i answered the norse way of life, you ignored it completely.

But you're right, WE should end this now, i'm more then willing to discuss it with people who discuss it, like nath or Scouse.

 

[MYstIC G]

I'm not really paying attention to the majority of content in this thread but I thought some of these questions were reasonably interesting, so thought I'd answer them, so you lot can chew over the results and I can sit and watch.

What happens when you die? Nothing, you die.
Why do you bother doing anything right if it doesn't matter in the end? I have a conscience. Besides, I wouldn't want to spend the time I have looking over my shoulder worrying about bad things coming back on me.
What is your reason for doing anything? Need or desire.
Do you judge your parents the same way? Don't really understand that question.
Do you challenge them? Again, don't really understand that question.
Are you enganged, dating, seeing, whatever, a person who is "illogical and irratinal"? Nope.
If you do, isn't that "silly"? Not applicable.
Where...big one for you...where did your morals come from? Guidance of elders throughout childhood.
How does an atheist find comfort in hard times? Hope? Comfort is not necessarily of any value. I can tell someone "there there" when something bad happens, that doesn't necessarily help them, whereas doing their shopping if they've been ill, might.
How does a lonely (alone completely) atheist find comfort, like say, a church provides? You're assuming company is comfort and that comfort is of value.

And one that always is a hard one:

Little timmy, who thought 2+2 is 5, just lost his grandma, what do you tell him if he asks where she is? That she's gone and won't ever be coming back.

 

[nath]

Toht, hypothetical question.

If you were to discover that there was absolutely no God whatsoever, that there were no afterlife, nothing. Just this - you effectively became an atheist. What would happen to your morality?

I appreciate that this could never happen, as such things cannot be disproved - but hypothetically. How do you think you personally would behave, how would your way of life, as you put it, be affected?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Toht, hypothetical question.

If you were to discover that there was absolutely no God whatsoever, that there were no afterlife, nothing. Just this - you effectively became an atheist. What would happen to your morality?

I appreciate that this could never happen, as such things cannot be disproved - but hypothetically. How do you think you personally would behave, how would your way of life, as you put it, be affected?

In no way really, i live by the norse way of life, "honor code" if you will and afterlife does not drive my life forwards. The way i act is not based on moral codes of gods, norse gods were bastards, didn't care and mostly toyd with people. It's the way of the people, a tribal thinking and "fair play" to those deserving it.

I'd be disappointed ofcourse, severely and perhaps would care even less(if that's possible) of death. Honorable death would go out the window.

To ask in reverse, how would your life change? What would you do different? Etc.

 

[Scouse]

Nothing would change

Edit: Scratch that, I'd go into every church in the land and take a dump on the altar