GMs: You cant please everyone...

[Flimgoblin]

are you an employee of goa or merly kissing ass on every post u make ?

Pom

baiting mods is a bad idea

no I'm not a GOA employee, I was made a mod by the admins of barrysworld and the founders of Freddyshouse then made me a mod here.

You sir, however, are banned. Have a nice holiday.

 

[Kami]

To all the GOA haters in this thread who can't do anything but bitch - if the game stresses/annoys you that much or you really think GOA made such a huge f*** up of this release then JUST QUIT. Stop giving them your subs and go play something else. It'd improve this game vastly for the rest of us who don't take things so seriously or bitch and whine all day long.

To GOA/FH - don't ever give me mod status or I'd ban this bunch of whining pricks within seconds, not because I'm a GOA fanboy but because I'm sick of reading the same old whinging shit from a minority of posters on the FH-DAOC forums.

 

[Oboy]

i want the shiny good looking box to complete my daoc cover collection so i refuse to buy a stupid key for 30e, cant get cata of the local dealer here (Game) and its out on webhallen. Guess i get it later or not at all, not any major loss anyway but making ppl (specially these who dont play but find daoc interesting) struggle to get a copy (and dl 2gig+ ZZZ) isnt the right way to attract ppl.

Guess i have to start play wow as everyone else as daoc english servers are quit dead atm and cata wont let it live again thanx to GOA major fuck up.
Havnt seen a single commercial for cata this including internet commercial except official homepage.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Call me a fanboi if you must but I don't think the whole "not available in the UK for a week, emergency download + CD key solution" thing was a unique and original plan to drive off those evil new players...

Maybe more of a "best they could do in a crap situation"?

maybe I'm just strange

 

[Ttillub]

Flimgoblin has Mod status here because the people who run FH trust him to do that job responsibly. it's nothing to do with his status as a volunteer for Goa. Goa do not run these boards and have no say in the choice of moderators.

Also I'd take issue with

Please stop stating guesses as facts. As evidenced by Corrans reply from Play.com in this post just above, the game was shipped in plenty of time. The problem is not one of distribution or having the product ready for shipping.

22nd March 2005, 07:53 PM
Requiel's Avatar
Requiel Requiel is online now
[GOA] English Servers GM


Join Date: 21st Apr 2004
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Catacombs release dates [Official]
As there has been a lot of speculation, debate and misinformation spread on this topic I'll repost here the salient points. I have made all these points before in other threads but this will hopefully make it easier for people to find this information. I will no longer respond to threads regarding Catacombs release as there is nothing more to say that I haven't already said several times. I don't feel that anything useful is achieved by repeating the same information in a multitude of different threads - in some cases multiple times in the same thread.

Here is the situation. I won't name the company involved but will instead refer to them with the pseudonym 'Mega'.
We told the distributor we wanted to release the expansion on March 25. For technical and business reasons the patch has to go live this week. Somewhere along the line 'Mega' weighed in and said that they weren't prepared to add another title to their March list and they'd only touch the game if it was released in April. As our distributors do a lot of trade with 'Mega', they agreed so as not to upset a very large customer and told all the other retailers that the release date was now April 15th for a simultaneous launch of the expansion and the complete box. After a lot of 'phoning people we came to the following compromise which keeps us, 'Mega' and the distributors happy. 'Mega' is prepared to release on the 1st April so officially the UK retail release date is then. However we are sending stocks to all UK retailers this week (at the same time as for other European retailers). We know that most of them will sell stock as soon as they recieve it rather than wait for release dates so we know that UK players won't be at a disadvantage. 'Mega' 'wins' it's fight to move the release to April, UK players can get the game for patch day and our distributors don't have to deal with losing 'Mega' as a client.

This is why any site you go to will have a release date of the 1st April or later. However shipment of stock happened today, so as soon as retailers recieve their boxes they will be sending it out. As far as we are concerned the release date is still the 24th March. There has been a considerable amount of effort put in place to ensure that UK players have the opportunity to buy the game at the same time as gamers on the continent and we are confident that this will be the case.

Those dates mean 2 days from GOA to a customer somewhere in Europe playing on english servers.

 

[Esselinithia]

Please stop stating guesses as facts. As evidenced by Corrans reply from Play.com in this post just above, the game was shipped in plenty of time. The problem is not one of distribution or having the product ready for shipping.

Lets see one thing here: if the CDs and CD keys would be delivered to customersbefore patch date (not to play.com, etc), it would provide extra time for them to react. Which is something they lack now. Having copies in big warehouses won't help them. Having time to organize private import before pacth day if things go sour would help them. Yes it isn't GOAs fault, and most people wouldn't and couldn't prepare for such events, except if they have their own web store (like Mythic do have) and can sell the game directly, and in such scenarios they can simple prevent the delay.

 

[Tilda]

Oboy, if you bothered reading half the other threads, you'd see that GOA didnt fuck up, their plans were fucked up by someone else.

Esselinithia, I dont know nor care what your personal vendetta with Erivoss is, but keep it off the forums, ok.

 

[Job]

Man if this really is G*ME's (spits) fault , I'm gonna go Medieval on their Asses.

As for it not beings GOA's fault, I'm sure it isn't.

But lets get real here people, if you fucked up a big project you were in charge of, YOUR boss wouldn't give two figs about who's fault it was, it would be your ass on the line for not ensuring it went well and had a backup in case it didn't.

And I can say without fear of contradiction that in the UK it didn't go well.

 

[sporez]

baiting mods is a bad idea

no I'm not a GOA employee, I was made a mod by the admins of barrysworld and the founders of Freddyshouse then made me a mod here.

You sir, however, are banned. Have a nice holiday.

 

[IainC]

Those dates mean 2 days from GOA to a customer somewhere in Europe playing on english servers.

Nope it means the boxes left the distributors warehouse and arrived at retailers warehouses on tuesday. Most webmerchants do 48hr delivery as standard or 24hr for an extra charge. High street stores would have been able to send the boxes out with their usual end of week deliveries. Most games are shipped to retailers at the last minute as retailers don't like having stock sat in their warehouses and distribution centres for longer than absolutely necessary.

 

[Flimgoblin]

And I can say without fear of contradiction that in the UK it didn't go well.

doubt anyone would disagree tis a bummer really

 

[Esselinithia]

Those dates mean 2 days from GOA to a customer somewhere in Europe playing on english servers.

2 days is enough to distribute software, and it was in warehouses nicely packed in time, and it is enough even for shipping to most customers in UK, the unsupported other countries are a different topic, but the original promise doesn't apply to us. I think some of us had time to prepare for problems, others were unable to. Say, if I would need it after the problem became a known issue I had a chance to spend a few hours visit Wien, buy a german version and patch it to English. And also to spend a nice day in Wien, which is a nice city. The time they had wasn't enough to deal with an unexpected problem, but it was still possible for some guilds to organize a way to buy catacombs for guild members, etc. For others there were a download link, etc. but the time wasn't enough for people to react.

It has nothing to do with 2 days before it should be shipped delivery to play.com, it has more to do with the fact: it would be available on / after patch day. So people who haven't got it, didn't had a few days to roganize their ways to solve the problem, download the game, etc. It is strictly about the CD release date and patch day. How much time is between distribution of CDs and ability to detect any legal, technical, etc problems (say the CD plant makes bugous install CD, etc) and the day the patch goes live on server.

Noone can have a plan before something unexpected happens, but some people can providetime for themselves to solve the problems between CD release day and patch day. It is impossible to be prepared for a misc legal problem that comes as a surprise, but it is possible to provide time for yourself and your players. The only way to protect yourself from problems with distributors is to sell the game by your own store too. The only way to allow people react in time to unexpected complications is to provide time.

 

[Esselinithia]

Nope it means the boxes left the distributors warehouse and arrived at retailers warehouses on tuesday. Most webmerchants do 48hr delivery as standard or 24hr for an extra charge. High street stores would have been able to send the boxes out with their usual end of week deliveries. Most games are shipped to retailers at the last minute as retailers don't like having stock sat in their warehouses and distribution centres for longer than absolutely necessary.

Yes, and I see no problems here, as you see my problem is simple: Most people who have no catacombs now would prefer to have a short time to buy catacombs fro other sources and find another way to get a game between release day and patch day, having a public beta period on the test servers for people who bought it and releaseing the CD earlier than patch time would mean these people doesn't feel at disadvantage they would miss only a few days of beta time.

But as I see: If you release it as fast as possible it is good for majority of players, and having a such delay for providing time to solve unexpected problems would be an uneccessary delay in many cases. And it wouldn't be shorter than this delay, but some people would feel it is more fair. Luckily having catacombs early isn't a big advantage that can imbalanace the game

 

[Yshynsin]

Requiel, you should advice Game (as it obvious they are the one from all the original postings) that they should come give a detailed explanation at why they have caused this, or at least give you permission to inform us. It be for their benefit mainly because as of the current moment with the situation that has arisen i would say they losing the business of an good few hundred people and upwards. May not seem much to a company as them but I for one probably spend £250+ a year in their stores (more depending if i getting console stuff too ) and i bet alot of people spend around that which they wont be getting now. So even if you just look at 100 people stopping that spend about that, it is still £25000 they lost out on though i bet the gamers here that will bycot it could push that figure too £100,000 easily.

I for one won't be shopping at GAME anymore, they are overpriced personally anyhow, and i used to walk up the road to Gamesation in banbury from Game, now i found out that game bought gamestation, olol :<

 

[Escape]

GOA is responsible for following their plan through with everyone involved. It's not good enough to pick a date out of a hat, confirm it as the release date and hope it works.

Ignoring the rest of europe, there're three main locations as represented by the servers; England, France, Germany.

So the scenario is:
GOA boss: Pierre, will our French distributors be ready on release date?
Pierre: oui
GOA boss: Will the Germans be ready?
Pierre: oui
GOA boss: Then the date is set! Leave me now
Pierre: monsieur "GOA boss", we have not checked with the English
GOA boss: That will be all Pierre...
Pierre: oui
GOA boss: And Pierre... before you leave, pass me another frog.


Classic doac was released, English servers opened 2 weeks after the French. There was some problem with SI, probably all of the fake CD-KEYS ended up in the UK. ToA was a couple of days late in the UK and with the pathetic supply sent, stocks were sold out before lunch. Now Catacombs....


If GOA was serious about suppying the UK with Catacombs, by using dlgamer as a distribution partner, they would've given dlgamer a CD-Key generator. Instead of '500' keys.

 

[Oboy]

GOA boss: And Pierre... before you leave, pass me another frog.

lol classic

 

[Sugah]

Fact still remains that the english version of the game could be completely up to date with the american version.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Fact still remains that the english version of the game could be completely up to date with the american version.

it can be - move to the US servers, good riddance

 

[Awarkle]

Somthing happened somewhere that noone could have aticipated and people did the best they could do, but i suspect that in these kind of situations there isnt anything goa could have done to change things.

Yes we got a few more days to wait for catacombs and we might not be the first lvl 50 (cat class) who has been powerleveled to 50. yes i know some people were really looking forward to catacombs but it doesnt effect our rvr situation it wasnt like TOA that required us to sign up for master level raids.

Catacombs may effect new people playing but really that will happen with the release of the combo pack.

Its a pitty that dl gamer couldnt post out the cd's to the people that ordered but i asume thats a case of finding out which cd's match up to which cat keys as well as the cost of postage and packaging. Which if you dont realise is basically the reason you payed roughly about 5 pounds more for the game than waiting for it from play is from the cost of downloading.

Im still looking forward to catacombs and ill enjoy it more knowing that the servers wont be crippled with people all logging on to register like what toa/si was like i remember waiting about 6 hours trying to log on at least this time less people have rushed the servers (ie french/german) and so got a higher chance of getting on first time.

 

[Banana]

odd thread.

people making accusations without actually reading whats going on.

from what ive read

Goa were going to release euro and uk together but for some reason some muppet told them it was more traditional to release on friday.
'Mega' stepped in and refused to add the game to their march release date and therefore goa decided to just send the game to everyone else as mose people release when they get the game.
It seemed like everything was fine til a last minuete legal tangle in which goa would actually be sued if they were to let any other uk gaming place sell the game before 1st april.
seems like they got this info on thursday meaning we wernt going to get it sent on the friday.
GoA quickly responded by doing the only thing they could actually do and give some CD keys to a online download supplier (baring in mind most of their stock would actually be already in england in the stores waiting for 1st april)

now..anyone else stil moaning regaring this service? cause i think theyve done their best when their backs against the wall. And the replies from dlgamer have been great too.

also someone asked req on prydwen.net why they released in april bank holiday. Something to do with if it didnt get released they would have to wait another month. Can find the link if people are really desperate.

 

[Esselinithia]

Oboy, if you bothered reading half the other threads, you'd see that GOA didnt fuck up, their plans were fucked up by someone else.

Esselinithia, I dont know nor care what your personal vendetta with Erivoss is, but keep it off the forums, ok.

I think it is pretty simple. Most people doesn't believe much in what GOA say, and this trust is broken, and this is a problem far worse than any delay with catacombs, since it isn't broken for a week. It is broken for almost every situation to come up, and I think web based forums are here to disccuss problems, and with communication and feedback we solve them together. Allowing only positive feedback, mass closing threads, and using mod status to stop people from telling their oppinion won't help with communication, and won't help to restore and build up trust. In fact, it can break trust.

I remember the mentioned issue, where you decided I was wtfpwned and closed threads with ripe and whois information, because badmouthing and mod powers are above truth and proof.

I do remember when on irc I told that speaking with admins about a tactics can be risky, since you don't know which realm they plan in. In a relic raid, etc one of the key elements if surprise, if you ask about an unusual tactics if it is real, and the GM who answers the question is from an enemy realm and your surprise is given away, that can be a problem. If you see an unusual chance and don't know if it is planned this way by Mythic or the feauture is coincidental you asked to report it, and ask goa about it, in such situations knowing that you can trust the GM is vital. I do remember your rude answer.

I think curtesy and modesty are rules to be enforced, and not overlooked, it binds moderators, goa people and players equally. In a multi cultural environment where some people doesn't use their native language, some have different temper, where you can't see the problems of others, it is even more important. And it is binding for everyone.

We all face, that in gu, and many places people blame goa for these problems, even if most of it isn't their own fault. If you take a loan from the bank and can't repay it in time, they won't ask whose fault it is. Trust of the customer is one of the most important loan one can take as bussinessmen. Requiel and Zenythe does a good job to show they are willing to show solutions and we can agreeon many things, and we can learn from each other, and I think it is very nice of them to be here in their free time.

Stoping conversations, thinking some side can be rude, defending falsehood ruins their work, I doubt if you are here for that purpose. The problem I have isn't a personal vendetta with Erivoss, if it would be, it would be reserved for places where we discuss the broken trust in goa problems, that did arise for other reasons. It would be in email with organizations that help customers, and with his superiors, etc.

But I think most of the GMs are rightfully surprised why people blame them, and would like to know a reason, I think speaking about such reasons can solve problems for them, and I think it is in the interests of all involved parties. Why only his issue is mentioned? Because it is the only problem I am aware of from GOA staff. They might want an answer to why it happens.

If you think mentioning events with proof is a persdonal vendetta because it hurts their reputation, then I think we are reached some problems where their actions hurt their own reputation and I think we can agree it was a mistake, that is partly resposnible for some people not trusting them fully. With this, the topic should normally end, and we should see if it was the prime motive and maybe look for other cases, where a question about trust arises (see relic raid related things). If someone discusses elements of this story I will be happy to answer. Of course if Ervinoss comes and says: mentioning these mistakes hurts his interests and ask not mention them even in privately, I will have reasons to respect that.

For broken trust problem one might mention other events on FH, saying if concerns of players aren't allowed but all positive stuff is, people can't have negative opinion about certain people or they get banned, yet others can get rude answers, for some people who are here to make sure the forum remains a home to community, and suitable even younger players have swear words in not one porst, that can lead to some people questioning, if the FH is a good source of information or a bit one sided. It is part of a problem.

In sincere hopes of seeing you willing to work to fix the problems we face now,

- Esselinitha


(I can offer a guide to how to find contact people of various ISPs, I can try to help with guides that help to reduce strain on download servers, willing to help if people at goa wants to speak about the problems in private and trying to find a way to rebuild some trust, willing to give email addies to local distributors, etc. but for it, we need working communication)

 

[Esselinithia]

Fact still remains that the english version of the game could be completely up to date with the american version.

No it can't be the same version. Can offer a detailed explanation but it would be offtopic here.

 

[Esselinithia]

Escape: lets see, it isn't the first time goa has problems with distributing stuff in england, but it is realy two sided: If retailers, distributors, etc from England would work with them, and say they would get hungarian, croatian, etc. distributors it would be MUCH better, but I think a lot of english companies have problems face a hard problem with dealing with GOA: Cultural and language barrier. Hard to work with the distributors, the local game magazines, etc. and we can say this for many regions, and if MMORPG market isn't strong in these regions it is even worse.

If Amazon.de would say: Hey we have potential customers for the game, so we would like to sell english version too, etc. I doubt if GOA would stop them. But the market we are speaking about isn't enough for the distributors, and it is a problem that GOA tries to solve with limited success. Yet we are their customers, and we can expect a solution to them, we don't pay subscribtion fees to 576kft, GAME, etc. we pay it for them, and expect they should represent our interests successfully with their partners. I think limited success and problems are acceptable, repeated problems can be explained and accepted. But trying to earn and maintain trust is vital in such situations.

 

[Escape]

Somthing happened somewhere that noone could have aticipated and people did the best they could do, but i suspect that in these kind of situations there isnt anything goa could have done to change things.

Its a pitty that dl gamer couldnt post out the cd's to the people that ordered but i asume thats a case of finding out which cd's match up to which cat keys as well as the cost of postage and packaging. Which if you dont realise is basically the reason you payed roughly about 5 pounds more for the game than waiting for it from play is from the cost of downloading.

afaik DLgamer will not post the boxes to anyone. All you get is the CD-KEY and download.

It's true that UK subscribers will 'only' need to wait an extra week, but the bank holiday weekend is happening now. For working people, there won't be a 4 day holiday next week

Again, GOA should have confirmed their release date with all distributors, before making it official. How hard is it to email/phone whoever is responsible in the UK before finalising the details? At least then the UK dealers would've been legally obliged to release the game, instead of fucking around. If GOA had made such an agreement, their lawyer would've made one phonecall on Friday and 2mins later GAME would've had Catacombs on their shelves!

 

[Escape]

Escape: lets see, it isn't the first time goa has problems with distributing stuff in england, but it is realy two sided: If retailers, distributors, etc from England would work with them, and say they would get hungarian, croatian, etc. distributors it would be MUCH better, but I think a lot of english companies have problems face a hard problem with dealing with GOA: Cultural and language barrier. Hard to work with the distributors, the local game magazines, etc. and we can say this for many regions, and if MMORPG market isn't strong in these regions it is even worse.

If Amazon.de would say: Hey we have potential customers for the game, so we would like to sell english version too, etc. I doubt if GOA would stop them. But the market we are speaking about isn't enough for the distributors, and it is a problem that GOA tries to solve with limited success. Yet we are their customers, and we can expect a solution to them, we don't pay subscribtion fees to 576kft, GAME, etc. we pay it for them, and expect they should represent our interests successfully with their partners. I think limited success and problems are acceptable, repeated problems can be explained and accepted. But trying to earn and maintain trust is vital in such situations.

How many other games do you know of which had had release date problems in the UK? I'm guessing you're not from the UK. So I'll say I've never seen these errors happening with anything other than daoc releases. Other mmorpgs are on the shelves on time and in good stock. Even now I can go into GAME and see boxes for EQ2, Lineage2, Sims Online(!), Eve, WoW.... The last time i asked for ToA the assistant started laughing. You see, even for GAME, GOA are a joke! Blame the marketing team or publisher or whoever... but if you run a business, you look after your own interests and if one of your partners/contractors isn't doing their job, you replace them. If you don't, the fault is yours.

GOA know the situation in the UK, we've been affected by it every time an expansion is released. So why didn't they get it right this time? ah yes, because of someone who they could've contacted, but didn't...

 

[Esselinithia]

The problem is with unexpected legal problems, and with wrong agreements madewith distributors, etc. it is mostly with the legal stuff. Yes, GOA signed these contracts did the nagotiations and they are responsible for these, no they were unable to foresee it, and they had an agreement about release date.

 

[eggy]

Tea And Cakes For Everyone!!!!

:d

 

[Esselinithia]

Escape: GOA managed to work with the distribution with quite a few retailers only a few had problems... See, it works both ways. Yes GOA should do a far better job, yes I know about several problems they have, yet their problems aren't universal for everywhere. And the above mentioned titles... How many of them are published in France? How many of the publishers behind them had only one product line sold in UK and had cultural barriers, etc to overcome? How many of them don't have day to day experience with the same distributors?

 

[IainC]

Again, GOA should have confirmed their release date with all distributors, before making it official. How hard is it to email/phone whoever is responsible in the UK before finalising the details? At least then the UK dealers would've been legally obliged to release the game, instead of fucking around. If GOA had made such an agreement, their lawyer would've made one phonecall on Friday and 2mins later GAME would've had Catacombs on their shelves!

It was confirmed back in January. Our distributors and our other partners were briefed and ready to go shortly after Christmas. Until a couple of weeks ago, all of our distributors including those in the UK were fully prepared for the launch this week and all indications were that it would go ahead as planned.

 

[Gamah]

Fact still remains that the english version of the game could be completely up to date with the american version.

Yes I would love all the French and German players swamping the English servers to test out the new patch.

Actully I will think you will find many people prefer the LAG we have in patches as it gives us time to prepare for any inc changes/fixes/nerfs.