News Global Warming fraud uncovered?

[Tom]

Perhaps then it would be more beneficial simply to encourage people to buy seasonal produce, rather than strawberries all-year-around.

Except nobody would stand for it. Even the most ardent left-wing vegan socialist environmentalists wear unnecessary jewellery, and use energy they don't need to. Personal limits vary from person-to-person. God forbid a government should ever try to stop that, because I'd be marching down to Parliament Square myself.

 

[noblok]

Perhaps then it would be more beneficial simply to encourage people to buy seasonal produce, rather than strawberries all-year-around.

Except nobody would stand for it. Even the most ardent left-wing vegan socialist environmentalists wear unnecessary jewellery, and use energy they don't need to. Personal limits vary from person-to-person. God forbid a government should ever try to stop that, because I'd be marching down to Parliament Square myself.

I'm all for encouraging people to buy seasonal produce. I'm not saying it should be forbidden to buy strawberries in winter, though. I just think the price of strawberries in winter should adequately reflect their environmental impact and in fact this is somewhat the case: vegetables and fruit are more expensive when out of season, so this is a great example of what I mean. People have a right to a certain amount of 'unnecessary' pollution, but the price of these products should among other things adequately reflect the cost to the environment. (And these taxes can then be spent on projects to improve the quality of nature, such as cleaner rivers, more forests etc.)

(Although more democratic and egalitarian systems can be constructed than this "the more money you have, the more you can pollute"-system, but those are simply not realistic to be introduced any time soon.)

 

[Jeros]

Perhaps then it would be more beneficial simply to encourage people to buy seasonal produce, rather than strawberries all-year-around.

Except nobody would stand for it. Even the most ardent left-wing vegan socialist environmentalists wear unnecessary jewellery, and use energy they don't need to. Personal limits vary from person-to-person. God forbid a government should ever try to stop that, because I'd be marching down to Parliament Square myself.

In an ideal world, the state would deal with "malcontents"

*edit* some of us believe in total state control

 

[Tom]

In an ideal world, the state would deal with "malcontents"

*edit* some of us believe in total state control

There's a place for those people, its called North Korea.

 

[MYstIC G]

There are only 3 certainties in life, you are born, you will die, there will be new taxes.

Climate Change = Welcome to number 3.

 

[old.Tohtori]

There are only 3 certainties in life, you are born, you will die, there will be new taxes.

Climate Change = Welcome to number 3.

Even death is an assumption, not a certainty and with being born being a necessity for life to begin, only one thing is certain; Taxes.

 

[Bugz]

In an ideal world, the state would deal with "malcontents"

*edit* some of us believe in total state control

Anyone who believes in total state control is an idiot.

No 2 ways about it.

 

[Scouse]

Even death is an assumption, not a certainty

Roffle. I was observing how batshit crazy this thread had gone from afar, but couldn't help but properly laugh at this

 

[Ctuchik]

Even death is an assumption, not a certainty

say what?

 

[rynnor]

I see Lawson is appealing for a Public Enquiry into the leaked emails - no chance he'll get it but it raises the profile a little:

Lord Lawson calls for public inquiry into UEA global warming data 'manipulation' - Telegraph

Another funny thing about Global Warming is how people believe changing their lightbulbs and recycling will save the world - lol.

The Government could easily reduce CO2 massively overnight if it tried - £10 per litre duty on petrol and £3k tax per long haul flight - £1500 per short haul.

However they purposefully set them at a level where people will not change their behaviour because they want tax not CO2 cuts - that tells you how they really feel about the coming apocalypse

 

[Tom]

The Government could easily reduce CO2 massively overnight if it tried - £10 per litre duty on petrol and £3k tax per long haul flight - £1500 per short haul.

No, the government couldn't do that, firstly because there would be public rioting on a scale previously unseen, and rightly so. Secondly because transport is responsible for only a small percentage of Co2 emissions.

 

[Wij]

No, the government couldn't do that, firstly because there would be public rioting on a scale previously unseen, and rightly so. Secondly because transport is responsible for only a small percentage of Co2 emissions.

Double figures though if memory serves.

 

[Bugz]

The Government could easily reduce CO2 massively overnight if it tried - £10 per litre duty on petrol and £3k tax per long haul flight - £1500 per short haul.

However they purposefully set them at a level where people will not change their behaviour because they want tax not CO2 cuts - that tells you how they really feel about the coming apocalypse

They set taxes at a level where the expected revenue is greatest. The govt have other commitments as well as global warming and massively increasing taxation in one area will bounce off into the economy and hit tax revenue in all other areas.

The overnight taxation you suggested would upset a lot of people and may cause people to fuck off abroad. The 'broken britain' thread shows how close people are to this 'ideal' already. Not to mention it will brake some firms, it will disrupt labour markets, it will disrupt market equilibrium. It will damage the economy a lot.

Not to mention, what Tom said is also valid.

 

[rynnor]

They set taxes at a level where the expected revenue is greatest. The govt have other commitments as well as global warming and massively increasing taxation in one area will bounce off into the economy and hit tax revenue in all other areas.

The overnight taxation you suggested would upset a lot of people and may cause people to fuck off abroad. The 'broken britain' thread shows how close people are to this 'ideal' already. Not to mention it will brake some firms, it will disrupt labour markets, it will disrupt market equilibrium. It will damage the economy a lot.

Not to mention, what Tom said is also valid.

Surely the point of 'green taxes' should be to achieve a green end not just raising revenue.

Current green taxes are set too low to actually achieve anything meaningfull - I personally object to them since the market itself will discourage the use of fossil fuels - look how expensive petrol is getting - back up to over $80 a barrel and rising.

 

[Bugz]

Ofcourse but people don't separate their tax into each section it goes into. Tax is tax and if you tax too much, people will protest/won't pay/will move abroad/will stop working/businesses will stop investing,innovating & expanding and the total revenue drops.

 

[Jeros]

In an ideal world, the state would deal with "malcontents"

*edit* some of us believe in total state control

God what am i like when im drunk!

Any way, this hacked information came up in my "earth modelling and prediction"(read: Maths) lecture today, and lecturer summed it up well along the lines off

"there are always unknowns, we are never 100% sure, but the majority of evidence suggests that our predictions are correct"



But i give up trying to argue this point now. I mean plate tectonics is a theory, we cant go down there and look at them, but using scientific method we know its going on.

 

[noblok]

On the original topic:

Latest news is that the hackers have manipulated the data themselves. Apparently most mails have been changed and been taken out of context to change the meaning. (I haven't found an english link I'm afraid - link in dutch for those interested.)

 

[Raven]

Anyway, the temperature has changed (sometimes very suddenly) throughout the history of the planet, 15,000 years ago or so half of Europe was under ice, who is to say that the ice caps melting is not just the completion of the retreat of that ice? It has never stopped retreating after all.

The point is it could be a load of bollocks, its all theory but there is a hell of a lot of money to be made from it. Tax, scientific grants, technology etc. There just isn't enough real evidence let alone records to say that its all man made. We have only been producing CO2 in large quantities for a few hundred years, the climate has been changing for a lot longer than that, both getting hotter and getting colder in different periods.

Also, when are they going to start taxing volcanoes and deep sea fissures? Nature produces far more junk than we do.

 

[Scouse]

Current green taxes are set too low to actually achieve anything meaningfull - I personally object to them since the market itself will discourage the use of fossil fuels

Yep. That well known market mechanism, OPEC. The oil-producer's cartel...

 

[rynnor]

Yep. That well known market mechanism, OPEC. The oil-producer's cartel...

We are past Peak oil supply so simple supply and demand will drive the price of oil ever higher as the supply declines - the Cartel was relevant in the 70's/80s when supply was rising - now they need do nothing but sit back.

 

[Bodhi]

Lets compare salaries and then decide who has a useless fuckup of a life eh Bodhi. I work for living myself you know, and bet the amount of tax I pay per annum = a lot of people's salaries. Stop believing the crusty people = environmentalist hype.

So you're actually a capitalist then? As no anti-capatilist worth their salt would ever claim "I am considerably richer than yaou".

Pretty much the first lesson in "How to 0wn Yourself 101". 'Grats!

 

[Scouse]

We are past Peak oil supply so simple supply and demand will drive the price of oil ever higher as the supply declines - the Cartel was relevant in the 70's/80s when supply was rising - now they need do nothing but sit back.

We've been "past peak oil supply" loads of times. But then they find more. Either way, OPEC will never "do nothing" or "sit back".

Market forces are irrelevant here.

 

[Scouse]

So you're actually a capitalist then? As no anti-capatilist worth their salt would ever claim "I am considerably richer than yaou".

Pretty much the first lesson in "How to 0wn Yourself 101". 'Grats!

No. I'm just not an idiot. Or a crusty green.

Actually - I'm aware that you think being clever enough to not have to have a shit wage makes you capitalist. Which is why I said what I said - in response to your, frankly retarded:

Basically Enivronmentalism = communism by another face. Get a grip folks, and stop trying to make those of us who work hard for a living pay for your useless fuck up of a life?

I guess pointing out that I don't have a "useless fuck up of a life" and slapping you down like the bitch you are makes me a capitalist

/sigh

 

[old.user4556]

This thread sucks.

 

[Scouse]

This thread sucks.

Threads about environmentalism, religion or freedom always do...

...so use them to vent your spleen. I found out my contract wasn't being renewed today and was highly pleased when I found out Bodhi had hit the spacker button

 

[Embattle]

It is tradition to have a topic go totally out of control or off topic. Just to clarify my earlier my earlier simple post.

There is always an issue for most people when thinking about all these fancy computer models that we hear scientists refer to, for example on an everyday level most people would consider the Met office seems more likely to change the weather with all those super computers running than actually predict the weather.

I should point out I know about a lot of the arguments for and against but my original post was based around the simple fact I've stated before that I would prefer to play it safe than risk it. To me the benefits don't only include a possible reduction in humans effect on global warming but another benefit I would consider just as powerful is a cleaner/healthier environment for us and the other creatures of this unique planet.

PS I'm no hippie either

 

[Bodhi]

I guess pointing out that I don't have a "useless fuck up of a life" and slapping you down like the bitch you are makes me a capitalist

/sigh

No. But inferring that I was talking solely to you when I said "people" makes you a bit of a self-centred mingepiece, who can't hear people talk because the legs on his horse are just that little bit too long. Just because I'd discussed this point with you in the past, does not mean my post was referring to you.

I feel you tried to smack me down. However I notice you aimed for me and hit yourself. At the end of the day, that is pretty fucking retarded. I think we've established now that climate scientists, aren't really proper scientists, as they have made no attempt to present any information in a scientific way. Much like yourself, the True Believers appear to have taken the biggest gun in the cabinet out, tried to use it to clean the cheese out from behind their toenails with it, and promptly blown their own feet off.

Makes an absolute fucking mockery of proper scientists imo.

 

[rynnor]

To me the benefits don't only include a possible reduction in humans effect on global warming but another benefit I would consider just as powerful is a cleaner/healthier environment for us and the other creatures of this unique planet.

Would be nice if it were true but thanks to global warming people are looking at all sorts of crazy ideas like biofuels. These pushed up food prices causing people to starve, created demand that lead to wholesale slash n burn farming in rainforests and decreased biodiversity.

While all eyes are on Global Warming nothing much is being done on the big threats to bio-diversity which is a more significant threat and more likely to lead to mass extinctions.

Then we have a lot of the pointless recycling that causes more fossil fuels to be used in the whole chain than could ever be saved.

Energy Saving lightbulbs containing extremely toxic mercury which will be polluting landfill sites for many years to come (not to mention its toxic effect on householders if god forbid you ever break one in the house).

Nothing is free of cost and global warming is no exception.

 

[Embattle]

I've never agreed with Bio and many other things which are short terms solutions, not that I felt I need to explain all this in the post.

 

[Scouse]

I think we've established now that climate scientists, aren't really proper scientists, as they have made no attempt to present any information in a scientific way.

I disagree with you fundamentally on this.

For a start, there's no such thing as a "climate scientist". There's just a scientist (of whatever discipline) who publishes his/her work in a peer-reviewed journal to get themselves shot down by their peers, like any other scientist.

The fact that the media decides to portray them in the way they do and the fact that the legions of retards who make up the public of all nations believe the media is not their fault.

As I've already said, many many scientists quit the IPCC because of the politicisation of the report. Some stayed because they reckon the overall message is right, though the methods are incorrect.

Like most things in life, the shades of grey are where it's at...