General Election 2005

Discussion in 'The Front Room' started by dysfunction, Apr 5, 2005.

  1. fatbusinessman

    fatbusinessman Fledgling Freddie

    The reason most people are bored with elections is because pretty much all the parties are either very much the same (Labour, Tories) or crazy radicals with little or no hope of getting any significant proportion of the votes (BNP, Green). I'm not really an economist, but this looks to me very much like an example of Hotelling's Law. Sadly, this means we're getting closer and closer to the way of American politics, with a bipartisan system where both parties are nigh-on exactly the same.

    Edit: I'll be voting Lib Dem purely because I agree with their policies more than I do any other party. Tactical voting merely encourages monopolies.
  2. yaruar

    yaruar Can't get enough of FH

    Green party are more nutty than the monster raving loony party though. Most people think they are fluffy ecologists, but their party manifesto looks like it was written by idiots.
  3. Lazarus

    Lazarus Part of the furniture

    one is as bad as the other.

    Would be good to see all the things the promised in the runup to the election added to a contract. If they dont deliver - out they go and refund the monies too.
  4. Tenko

    Tenko Fledgling Freddie

    Gonna have to say that even as a life long labour supporter I won't be voting for them this time round. For the whole of the usual reasons (word's like "Bloody Police State" and "Lieing Bastards" come to mind) plus the fact my MP is one of Tony's terriers.

    As everyone says the Conservative party aren't really for likes of you and me (Do Tories use the internet? I haven't seen one yet).

    Therefore its the Lib Dems. They ain't screwed up the country yet so it must be their turn.
  5. SawTooTH

    SawTooTH Can't get enough of FH

    Thats all well and good but the policies enacted by the Party probably have a much greater impact on your quality of life than the few minor local issues that most MPs deal with. I do concede that if you have an MP that you really like then that makes the decision more difficult.
  6. Munkey

    Munkey Can't get enough of FH

    The day of voting falls upon my birthday, when I'll be turning 18. Does that mean I'm eligible to vote?
  7. Tom

    Tom FH is my second home

    Are you an ex-pat?
  8. Munkey

    Munkey Can't get enough of FH

  9. throdgrain

    throdgrain FH is my second home

    IF -
    Micheal Howard did as he said, and

    Repealed the over strict gun laws
    Sorted out the gypsies
    Sorted out the illegal immegrants
    Fixed the nanny state bullshit

    I would vote for him. But the truth is, he is a tory, he wont do anything.


    We have one government with a nanny state, and a stable economy.
    Or another government doing exactly the same, but with a piss poor economy benefitting about 15% of the population.

    'Fraid its got to be Labour then .

    Oh, Lib dems? Dont make me laugh. Most of the people who say they vote for them do it as a non-vote. They are far more left wing than Labour. Dont like this nanny state? Try it under them...
  10. Ormorof

    Ormorof FH is my second home

    been reading some of the BNP stuff and its actually quite amusing :p

    so they are going to force companys to hire british people? even if the "foreigner" has a better application?

    they are going to stop supermarkets from stocking imported goods that are quite possibly better quality than a british made good?

    thank god the BNP will never win an election, or at least from my point of view that is :clap:

    both labour and tory's seem full of empty promises (i mean honstly, would you trust michael howard to deliver your post safely? i wouldnt :p )
  11. Zill

    Zill Can't get enough of FH

    I live in the constituency of Chingford & Woodford Green which is a safe(ish) Tory seat which has been held by Iain Duncan Smith since 1992. I have always voted Conservative and shall be doing so again in this election and pray for a huge swing nationwide for the Conservatives returning them to government.

    I am sick of Labour, Tony Blair, lies, spin, deceit, government incompetence, political correctness and multiculturalism.

    I want tougher sentences for criminals instead of the slap on the wrists theyre currently receiving from our useless, liberal courts

    I want teachers to be allowed to punish unruly kids

    I want tougher controls on immigration

    I want Britain OUT of the corrupt, socialist European Union (failing that, no more of our laws to be passed by foreigners in Brussels)

    I want the Human Rights Act ripped up.

    And I could bore you further but you get the gist...
  12. throdgrain

    throdgrain FH is my second home

    Yeah but Zill, you wont get any of that. You'll just get even bigger wankers than at the moment, coupled with high unemployment.
  13. Tom

    Tom FH is my second home

    It was the Tories that removed capital punishment from schools IIRC.
  14. Embattle

    Embattle FH is my second home

    You seem to miss the fact he is a zealous Conservative, thus you words will fall on deaf ears ;)
  15. Stazbumpa

    Stazbumpa Fledgling Freddie


    "Any last words before the head of the maths department carries out the sentence??"

    (I think you meant "corporal" punishment :) )
  16. Zill

    Zill Can't get enough of FH

    Well, even though Im a passionate supporter of the Conservative party, I am always happy to listen to people with opposite views to my own providing they reciprocate and debate sensibly :). Im certainly not interested in wasting my time with the loonies who just spue regurgated Daily Mirror stories.

    As a Conservative, I dont believe the liberal approach is the right way in tackling the country's problems and which I believe is responsible as to why, not only Britain, but most of Europe is in a complete and utter mess. It has a lot to do with signing up to the Human Rights Act which this useless Labour Party of ours made law probably just to pay lip service to our masters in Brussels. This law is tearing our society apart which Michael Howard has pledged to remove from the statute books if he becomes PM. Bear that in mind on May 5.

    And just on another point, I dont feel particularly proud to be European. As Britons we have much more in common with our American friends. I dont think the French (centuries of war), Germans (two world wars), Spanish (Gibraltor) will ever like us and likewise, really. We dont share the same culture or speak the same language and with them leading the EU its pretty pointless in thinking we can ever be firm friends. Thats why I am against the EU and most certainly any further intergration to create a European Superstate which is what Labour and Lib Dems want to take us into. A vote for Conservative will mean a vote to retain our identity as a sovereign nation.
  17. Tom

    Tom FH is my second home

    Well, take a look at European history before the advent of the EU. Hardly a nice place to live if you were of age to be called up.

    Personally I don't think the EU is such a bad idea, although I do have reservations about the amount of money that is spent for our 'benefit'. I think somebody should be accountable to us, the electorate.
  18. Ormorof

    Ormorof FH is my second home

    you seem to forget that theres alot more to europe than france germany and spain :p

    what about italy, greece, austria, denmark, sweden, ireland and now all the eastern europeans too? :)

    whether or not you are proud to be european doesnt mean you you can choose not to be one

    though its understandable that you dont want to be associated with an incompetent europe :p

    so cutting taxes and (thus cutting spending unless some magic money appears from somewhere :p ) is really gonna help "this complete and utter mess"?
    oh wait you are "cutting away the fat" not cutting spending
  19. Milkshake

    Milkshake Loyal Freddie

    I kinda want some of the Cons policies, some of Labours and one or two of the Liberals.

    Thus, I have no idea where I'm gonna vote. However, at the moment, I'm probably gonna go Labour, just because I like Tony Blair. I'd say it's the spin that does it, but I don't think I've seen any good spin on him for quite a while recently.

    However, I look around my community. There's less neds, tower blocks been knocked down, the local academy got a big chunk of money and I was in it recently...and it's plush! Lucky sods :D

    We've even ended up with an outside basketball court, something we've been campaigning for quite a while.

    My two trips to the hospital have been fine, nothing serious, but everything was done to help.

    I've seen more police around than I can ever remember, especially out on the beat. I even had a 10 min chat with one, who was saying crime was seriously down the last couple of years, and how he was worried they'd cut staff because of it and crime'd go back up.

    I also get my Uni fees paid for me, and I'm in a position where I can scrape by without taking a loan, so once I come out of Uni I'll be sitting pretty.

    Shit, we even got new outside lights recently, everything's way brighter compared to the old orange buzzy ones we had.

    I dunno if that's because we're in Scotland, and we get some things better...but tbh, I see good, not bad, so Blair gets my vote.
  20. throdgrain

    throdgrain FH is my second home

    When I was at school we still had corperal (sp?) punishment btw, well ,it was finished in my 3rd year .
    Honestly, kids behaviour since then has got steadily worse.
  21. Gengi

    Gengi Fledgling Freddie

    Some of them do, Boris there are also links to other Bloggers there.

    My MP in Newcastle North is fairly non descript, I have checked his voting record and he seems to be left leaning on social issues but a fascist with regard to civil liberties. His voting record , this site will allow you to find out exactly where your MP stands on some of the major issues of the last Parliament.

    I do not want to see Tony Blair re-elected, I have never been very keen on Labour, I do not think that this time the Conservatives will be elected, I do not think the LIberal Democrats have a snowballs hope in hell of even overtaking the Conservatives.

    The best I can see is a third term for Labour with a much reduced majority and, hopefully, a culling of the out and out Blairites from within the Parliamentary Labour Party leaving Tony with a large number of 'proper' socialists to try and keep in check, rather than his current crop of proto-conservatives who do his bidding without compunction, or even much of a whipping :) (except for possibly the Education Minister who, may or may not, enjoy/participate for religious reasons, in this sort of thing :touch: )

    For tactical voting to the end described above see here. This site is Anti Blair with socialist overtones and a self professed ironic streak.


  22. SAS

    SAS Can't get enough of FH

    This year I've not registered to vote.

    Before anyone screams "waste", "you have no right to moan about what happens after the election" I agree with you.

    Problem is I just see each party is never going to deliver on what they promise. I feel my vote makes not one bit of difference to the future of the UK. Again I maybe wrong, but personally I can't stand hearing about how x party will do this, and make cuts here e.t.c all just to get elected and then really decide what they can actually do for real.

    Lots of people believe in what the media tell them and will vote on that alone. Others will vote against Blair only over Iraq, when really its about voting for the next 'govnerment'.

    I guess I could of voted for a random party or tactical voting, but at the end of the day it should be voting for who you want to see run the country and a lot of people don't see it that way anymore?

    /end rant
  23. Jonty

    Jonty Fledgling Freddie

    Hi guys

    Not to get drawn into all this partisanship, but I just want to correct something ...

    Forgive me for picking on Zill, but it's a good example of a common misconception.

    The Human Rights Act 1998 (HRA) is absolutely nothing to do with the European Union. The HRA is actually our implementation of the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms (ECHR), which was created after World War II by the Council of Europe, a body which includes over 40 member states throughout Europe and Russia and which is nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

    The ECHR is an internationally recognised treaty with its own courts system and administrative bodies. So successful has it been that it has inspired provisions for both the American Charter of Human Rights and the African Charter of Human and Peoples' Rights. Of course it's not perfect, not by a long shot, but it has brought with it a tremendous power for good.

    The Conservatives and other political parties quite frankly use it as a scapegoat. The vast majority of court cases in England and Wales never go to trial (80-90%), usually because guilty pleas are entered or the cases are dropped. Of the relatively small number of cases which go to trial, only a very small proportion use human rights provisions, and of those only a smaller number actually base their case on human rights provisions. Even then there is no guarantee the claims will be accepted, the ECHR can be restricted and derrogated from in all but the most sacrosanct of provisions (freedom from torture, right to life etc.). Indeed, in controversial matters, the European Court of Human Rights (if the case ever gets that far) often affords states a 'margin of appreciation' whereby ambiguous state decisions, which may violate human rights, are left alone by the courts.

    So lets look at the facts (and they are facts):

    • The Human Rights Act/European Convention on Human Rights is not used in vast majority of cases.
    • The Human Rights Act can only be used against the State (broadly defined to include public services etc.) and not against other private individuals and companies.
    • The Human Rights Act/European Convention on Human Rights is nothing to do with the European Union, instead being an international treaty formed after WWII with global recognition and adhered to by over 40 countries.
    • The Human Rights Act provisions are by and large civil and political, and are largely used to guarantee rights which all of us hold dear (right to life, fair trial, freedom of toture etc.).
    • Using the Human Rights Act is not guaranteed to succeed in cases, indeed the courts have shown hesistancy in controversial areas often backing the states involved rather than the claimants.
    Sorry to hark on about all this, but it really does upset me to see a genuinely positive legal instrument which is designed to protect us being used as a scapegoat for society's ills. It isn't perfect, I'm sure there are a small number of cases where it has been wrongly applied or misused (which the Daily Mail et al would no doubt have you think was the norm ;)), but by and large the Human Rights Act is a Goog Thing™. Indeed, as all law in England and Wales must be read in light of the Human Rights Act, there is some debate as to whether it is actually possible to repeal an Act which has a consitutionally privileged position. Parliament's powers may be unlimited, but imagine if we decided to repeal an Act granting independence to a former colony, it would have no practical effect because of the constitutional nature of the Act.

    Kind Regards


    P.S. If you want to attack something, note that Part II EU Constitution (which is definitely to do with the EU :)) has it's own human rights provisions distinct from the European Convention. By and large the EU Constitution's provisions are the same as the European Convention, but they add new measures such as preventing human cloning and yet lack some other existing principles such as adequate minority rights protection.
    • Like Like x 2
  24. Will

    Will /bin/su Staff member Moderator

    I love you, Jonty.
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Calaen

    Calaen I am a massive cock who isn't firing atm!

    I will vote Labour for sure, for no other reason than it isnt gonna do us any good changing governments every time we get the chance. Nothing will ever get sorted out. While Labour has not achieved everything they said could anyone actually do it? I mean look at the NHS it is gonna take alot of hard work and effort by everyone involved to sort this out.

    Now in saying that I dont have a problem with the NHS always sorted me out for anything I have been there for, for anything that requires urgent attention I have a private Health care policy if needed. Now I can appreciate not everyone can afford one of these. But I can seee where people could become angry over the NHS.

    Anyway its dinner time up the Labour...
  26. nath

    nath Fledgling Freddie

    Well you seem to have an opinion - it's not just apathy stopping you voting. As such, why not stop yourself being labelled (via statistics) as one of the many who couldn't be bothered to vote and go and destroy your vote. You can't be noted down as someone who just couldn't be bothered - you participated, but you registered your displeasure with the current system.
  27. dysfunction

    dysfunction FH is my second home

    Thanks Jonty nicely put there.

    I find the Conservatives are so anti Europe they will use anything they possibly can...related or unrelated to the scare the UK from being more involved in anything to do with the EU.

    Jonty for Presindent...I mean PM.
    • Like Like x 1
  28. anattic

    anattic Fledgling Freddie

    I'm not sure I agree with you entirely.

    There is an assumption in our current system, that "whatever the last lot did was rubbish". Hence, we get endless buggering about with the NHS, Education etc., and as you say, nothing gets sorted out.

    However, I think prolonged periods with the same people in office leads to a certain belief that they are "there by divine right", at which point, some of the less savoury ideas that are kicking around start to emerge (ID cards, Control Orders, <insert-own-disliked-legislation-here>) The tories suffered this pre-97, and I believe that Labour are developing the symptoms. I personally think this is worse than "nothing getting sorted out".

    The solution: a bit more parliament-focussed, concensus government (proportional representation possibly?)

    Or put me in charge. That'd work too. ;)
  29. Calaen

    Calaen I am a massive cock who isn't firing atm!

    I can see you point and agree with you. However I am not against the ID cards :) no different really to carrying round your passport when you in America to prove you age in Bars :p. I also dont have any problems being asked for proof of ID. Maybe it would keep half the twats that go out drinking every fucking weekend from spoiling my night :)
  30. Jonty

    Jonty Fledgling Freddie

    hehe, brilliant summary :D

    My problem is, like you say, the misinformation banded about and left uncorrected seemingly on purpose. If people can form cogent reasons for their policies, fair enough; but certain groups in the media and the political realm blur wholly distinct issues to further their cause (not just in the UK, the US is another prime example). I just think it unfair that a legal instrument designed to protect us when we need it most can be used as a political toy to blame many of society's problems on.

    Like I say, human rights legislation and enforcement is far from perfect, but I believe certain human rights should be inalienable to us all. This is something wholly separate from a rights/entitlement culture which is driven by businesses, not core values of humanity as is often the case with human rights.

    Anyway, sorry for rambling on, I just hope my previous post cleared up any confusion ('nice' human rights successes are reported far less than the scaremongering ones, so it's easy to thing human rights are just another talking shop :)).

    Kind Regards


    P.S. Love you too, Will ;)

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