Fox Hunting

[Furr]

pfft.

Well from what i've seen it is generally a country v city thing.

Im sure that serial killers are going to kill anyway it just happens that they find the same sick feeling from killing animals. Are you trying to say that hunting is a prelude to a person being a serial killer? because i disagree.

And this bit based on cruelty to animals, depends on how you view a fox, is it Vermin or not? Well i believe it is vermin and i don't have much "empathy" for how vermin is killed, as long as it is killed.

Its like saying we must make sure that rats etc are killed humanly, therefore lets ban rat poisons as they no doubt cause the animal pain as it dies from internal bleeding.

 

[Rubber Bullets]

Crap - the majority of people in the country are opposed to Fox hunting so its silly to characterise it as some kind of city v country thing.

I'm not sure what figures you've seen, but those I've seen disagree with this. The majority of people are not against fox hunting.

In general those in favour do live in the country, and understand the reasons behind fox hunting. Generalisation I know, but in broad terms this is a city vs country thing.

Because its sick perhaps - many a serial killer began by torturing and killing animals - it demonstrates a basic lack of empathy.

What rubbish. Fox hunters will turn into serial killers? Hunting is not about wiping out the fox population, it is about keeping the copuntryside in a status quo. The fox has no natural predators, and if unchecked it's population will grow. This is not great news for the foxes tbh. There is limited supply of food and they will be forced to rely on human sources.

You seem confused - you dont have to value the life of an animal as equal to that of a human to be against cruelty to animals such as foxhunting.

Nearly true, but you spoil it at the end. Controlling foxes is to the benefit of everyone concerned, even the surviving foxes. Independant research recently showed that the most humane way to achieve it is through hunting. The least humane ways are shooting and poisoning, both still legal.

RB

 

[throdgrain]

Sorry Rynor but if I had to take apart your post bit by bit for inaccuracies Id be here all night.
56% of the public are opposed to the ban.

 

[rynnor]

Sorry Rynor but if I had to take apart your post bit by bit for inaccuracies Id be here all night.
56% of the public are opposed to the ban.

I think you mean 59% but the actual figure of those who thought hunting should continue was 18% to which the Countryside Alliance added the 41% who said it should be regulated.

And as with all poll's the devils in the detail - this one was worded so as to make people favour either regulation or the status quo - here are the options then decide if this was a load of bollocks ;P

1. "hunting should be allowed to continue because it is essentially a matter of civil liberties"

2. "hunting should be allowed under regulation"

3. "Ban it because cruelty is more important to me than civil liberties".

Lol!

Edit - no need to take my word for it - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3767729.stm

 

[throdgrain]

Yeah quote the ever so pc BBC on this one, good idea :/

 

[rynnor]

I'm not sure what figures you've seen, but those I've seen disagree with this. The majority of people are not against fox hunting.

Only according to one very biased poll by the Countryside Alliance which counted people who wanted it regulated as supporters ;P

What rubbish. Fox hunters will turn into serial killers? Hunting is not about wiping out the fox population, it is about keeping the copuntryside in a status quo..

No, I dont believe fox hunters will turn into serial killers but I do think that taking part in such an activity leads to a general deadening of empathy.

The fox has no natural predators, and if unchecked it's population will grow. This is not great news for the foxes tbh. There is limited supply of food and they will be forced to rely on human sources.

Newsflash - a bunch of blokes on horses did not control the fox population - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/archive/2239475.stm - is an interesting read.

Independant research recently showed that the most humane way to achieve it is through hunting. The least humane ways are shooting and poisoning, both still legal.RB

Seems unlikely - can you link to the research? Plus as I said fox hunting as a method of fox population control is merely a myth propagated by foxhunters to justify themselves as shown above.

 

[rynnor]

Yeah quote the ever so pc BBC on this one, good idea :/

If you dont like the facts try to rubbish the source - nice one ;P

 

[Tom]

I'm willing to bet that just about everybody here whinging about the poor foxes buys their meat in sealed sellophane packages. The same people moaning about the fate of an Orange Dog are now likely the same idiots protesting against 4x4 vehicles.

 

[rynnor]

I'm willing to bet that just about everybody here whinging about the poor foxes buys their meat in sealed sellophane packages. The same people moaning about the fate of an Orange Dog are now likely the same idiots protesting against 4x4 vehicles.

Hmm, so people against animal cruelty are also anti 4X4 - interesting leap there - and its sooo much fun to generalise ;P

So you hand raise and kill everything you eat then Tom?

 

[Tom]

No I don't have to, thats what farmers are there for. I was pointing out that the majority of peope so vehemently against fox hunting are clueless about country life. As Throddy has already said.

The anti 4x4 lobby are no different. They'll try and increase tax/ban 4x4s despite there being no appreciable difference between your average 4x4 and standard saloon. Once thats been done, they'll be after sports cars - just as the same idiot anti-fox hunting brigade will soon be after fishermen.

Basically these left-wing lunatics won't be happy until they have everybody nicely lined up in their imaginary pigeon-holes. They don't give a stuff about the animals or the environment, they're more concerned about the fact that other people have something they don't.

 

[Rubber Bullets]

Seems unlikely - can you link to the research? Plus as I said fox hunting as a method of fox population control is merely a myth propagated by foxhunters to justify themselves as shown above.

Can't find a direct reference at the moment, but this para 6.58 - 6.61 gets the gist

RB

 

[Wij]

Well - I'm all in favour of Fox-hunting but I hate 4x4s. I think the government should ban them

 

[rynnor]

No I don't have to, thats what farmers are there for. I was pointing out that the majority of peope so vehemently against fox hunting are clueless about country life. As Throddy has already said.

But thats not actually true. Despite the Countryside Alliance trying to portray it as Town v Country the majority of people in the country do not support it - just a vocal minority.

The image of 'Clueless city folk telling the country folk what to do' is merely a piece of propaganda used to try and forge an alliance out the very disparate collection of self-interest groups that make up the so-called Countryside Alliance.

The thin end of the wedge arguements are also spurious - they require a certain level of paranoia. In truth laws generally reflect the opinion of the majority.

It would be difficult to argue that fox hunting was ever more than a very minority pastime that was pretty unpopular - to compare that to a sport like fishing where over a million people regularly go and that doesnt have a bad reputation with the majority and then suggest it is now in imminent danger of being banned is to stretch credibility...

Its like saying they've banned the sale of heroin so cigarettes will be next.

 

[rynnor]

Can't find a direct reference at the moment, but this para 6.58 - 6.61 gets the gist

RB

They said lamping using Rifles was the best method but they also said in each section of the chase and kill etc that they didnt have enough scientific data so you would have to say its pretty inconclusive?

 

[Furr]

Well - I'm all in favour of Fox-hunting but I hate 4x4s. I think the government should ban them

What if i bought a Lexus 4x4 Hybrid ?

 

[Ormorof]

how is it more humane to rip a fox to shreds piece by piece with a pack of dogs than shooting it (and probably killing it) with a shotgun? (which would rip it to shreds too, but much quicker?)

 

[TdC]

dog, ferrets and other animals have traditionally been used in pest control for ages and ages. think of ratting amongst others. imo controlling fox population has no magic method that is painless and works 100% of the time. while I don't particularly approve of the "sport" of fox hunting I happen to think that there is no way of getting rid of that particular animal that will cause no bitchery at all. it's much to do with how we percieve the beast you see. foxes are "nice and fluffy", while rats...well, have you ever heard anyone complain about the zillions of rats getting culled the world over?

 

[throdgrain]

More non-facts coming out. The fox isnt ripped to pieces , not until its dead at least. It dies pretty much instantly,the lead dog does it. Shotguns arnt really that effective against foxes by the way, not out much further than maybe 40 yards , and even then taking a shot at a fox at that range would probably leave 1 in every 10 to escape and die slowly over the ensuing days.
A rifle is really the only option, and let me tell you as someone who knows, its very very difficult to get a rifle licence anyway.
TDC also makes a very good point, no one complains about the amount of rats that are killed, and itd millions upon millions worldwide Im sure. But then the dont have the Disney quality of foxes do they?

 

[nath]

I haven't read much in the way of statistics about this so I'm happy to be proven* wrong, but I find it hard to believe that fox hunting actually culls the fox population by any significant amount. I mean how many do they end up killing per month anyway?

Again, this is all aside from my views on fox hunting so lets not start chucking around insults and/or accusations.

 

[throdgrain]

Thing about you Nath, you do try to have a conversation without it descending into supidity. Even if I dont always agree with you, I respect that.
What you have to remember is that most hunting with dogs isnt done like with the 52 geezers in red coats on horses. The vast majority of it is done with say 2 blokes and 2 or 3 lurchers. Very effective indeed, and the fox either dies or gets clean away.
I dont blame people for not knowing this, I used to think much the same as some of the people on this thread, until I went out and looked into the situation.

 

[Stazbumpa]

Staz's 2p:

1p: Fox's do get ripped to bits by the dogs. Before they're dead. Seen it. Also seen foxes go to ground in their den, only to be dug out and thrown into a pack of dogs. Mr Fox beat the humans back to his base, so that doesn't exactly smack of being fair to me.

2p: Anyone who actually takes pleasure in killing something for the "sport" of it, particularly in this day and age, clearly has something wrong with them. Visit death upon something that could quite possibly kill you if you don't. This extends to the kill-for-food part of the argument. But lets not make a sport out of it, eh?

PS: Rats far outnumber foxes. No matter how much rat-killing you do, you will never run out of rats. Not aware of any rat-killing sports either. If there are, again, these people need help.

PPS: Rynnor = correct. The pro-hunting lobby are soooooo wrong in trying to make it a city vs countryside thing. I'm allegedly countryside folk myself, and their ain't a huge amount of support for it round here.

 

[throdgrain]

That was partly my point Staz, the digging of foxes is still legal. And Ive spoke to lots of people about this, all who say the fox dies very quickly.
Also as I say, most of the imformation I found was from people who did it with a couple of lurchers, nothing to do with red coat people.

 

[TdC]

can I just prove my ignorance of all things hunting by asking what a lurcher is? a horse? sounds like something out of half-life tbh.

 

[rynnor]

More non-facts coming out. The fox isnt ripped to pieces , not until its dead at least. It dies pretty much instantly,the lead dog does it.

This is pro-hunting propaganda and even a little common sense will show it to be untrue - if the first dog grabs it round the throat (which they dont always) you think the other dogs just sit back saying - 'its ok - rovers got the fox' - no they pile in and grab whatever bit they can get to.

I keep dogs so I have seen this for myself - plus theres details of autopsy's in the report Rubber bullets quoted before plus theres loads of anti-hunt vids that show multiple hounds tearing a fox to bits.

 

[mank!]

anyone who is pro-fox hunting needs their head checked.

they probably torture people's pets as well.

 

[rynnor]

can I just prove my ignorance of all things hunting by asking what a lurcher is? a horse? sounds like something out of half-life tbh.

Its a dog - looks like a hairy greyhound - they are greyhound crossbreeds - either with collie or terrier blood. They are sighthounds so they will chase anything that moves - sighthounds are the oldest class of dogs going back many thousands of years - not a good present for a rabbit owner tho ;P

 

[throdgrain]

anyone who is pro-fox hunting needs their head checked.

they probably torture people's pets as well.

Mank get a grip. That just not how things are. People who hunt and shoot love the cvountryside, they want to maintain it.
Imo a lot of people who want such things banned so it out of ignorance more than anything, and get thier opinions from a very simplfied sense of right and wrong, that doesnt really see the big picture.
However, as we all know, arguing on the internet is like competeing in that special race, and almost totally pointless. If I might at least just point you at the BASC website -more concerned with shooting I know, but all the same- have a browse through some of the imformation there, you may be suprised.
http://www.basc.org.uk/

 

[TdC]

Its a dog - looks like a hairy greyhound - they are greyhound crossbreeds - either with collie or terrier blood. They are sighthounds so they will chase anything that moves - sighthounds are the oldest class of dogs going back many thousands of years - not a good present for a rabbit owner tho ;P

aha cheers! but wait! what are the dogs those red-coated peeps on horses use then? they don't look much like shaggy greyhounds to me at all!

 

[yaruar]

If we allow fox hunting we should also allow bear/badger baiting and cock and dogfighting...

Although these of course were banned as they were the preserve of the lower classes and therefore had no real support in the houses of parliament at the time.

Just a thought for you out there.

Oh, there are lots of stray cats and dogs out there, i demand my right and my civil liberty to throw bricks at them and shove fireworks up their bums to control their numbers (and pigeons, vile skyrats that they are)

 

[mank!]

i've got fuck all against shooting but fox hunting is sick.

i live in the countryside and i fucking hate it, what's to love?

p.s. fox hunting is also the pride and joy of toff's, which makes it even worse