Finally! A good reason to live in america!

[Dukat]

Texas shooting of burglars at neighbors' raises debate - The Boston Globe

 

[crispy]

A reason not to live there

Shooting someone for stealing a tv

Couldnt he just have shot to make them run or for gods sake just wound them...

Stealing tv != getting murdered so hes a bit short when it come to his (probably) eye for an eye morals...

 

[Jeremiah]

Stealing tv != getting murdered so hes a bit short when it come to his (probably) eye for an eye morals...

I know what you mean Crispy, but the minute you take that action of infringing someone else's human right to having a life without crime, I think you forfeit your own human rights. I just feel anything else short of that gives some justification to crime =(

 

[Huntingtons]

so whatever somebody steals it should be fair to shoot them? what about shooting them when you feel they will steal something?

 

[Jeremiah]

A good question

Intentions arent punishable, actions are!! =)

 

[Dukat]

The old guy didnt ask to be there, to have to be in that situation. He wasnt the one who went onto another persons's property and took another person's possessions. He didnt ask for it at all, the two who got killed DID ask for it. They DID decide to trespass onto another persons property with wrongful intentions. They were the ones who precipitated the entire action and so are fully to blame.

The "good reason" I was refering to in the title was specifically the fact that the guy was able to use deadly force to defend himself and his property.

Living where I do I always wonder whether I'll have to defend my property from burglars (or worse) - Bleak house where Tony Martin used to live is only miles away, and the fact that I might be prosecuted for using deadly force to defend my family kinda concerns me, but it wouldnt stop me from ensuring that intruders into my home with bad intentions do not get within 10ft of my loved ones.

Imo "Shoot to wound" is a concept dreamt up from watching too much tv - it isnt possible in real life.

Why should criminals have an advantage over me ? why should they beable to use deadly force to take what I have, where as I am not allowed to use the same force against them to defend it?

 

[Influenza]

I think people should be allowed to use deadly force to protect their own property , i dont think people should be allowed to use it to protect someone elses.

I could understand it if he was actually in his neighbours house at the time but he wasnt , they were posing no immediate threat to him ,yes they were breaking the law but that doesnt give him the right to shoot them.

 

[Bugz]

A good question

Intentions arent punishable, actions are!! =)

Intentions do get punished.

 

[Raven]

Its not about the TV its the fact that he has invaded someone else's house, sure shooting is a bit harsh....but its two less criminals alive, not sure i see the problem, really

On reading though it isn't even his house so he didn't really have the right to shoot them imo.

 

[Raven]

Intentions do get punished.

No they don't, only the act of planning something is illegal. I intend to give Gordon Brown a nice big slap when i see him next. done nothing wrong there.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Not ok if you ask me.

Would have been ok to wound them. But killing them in that situation is too much.

 

[ileks]

How is he suposed to just "wound" them? They would almost certainly have been armed themselves.

Saying that, i have to admit killing two people who were on his neighbours property was too far. The policeman on the phone repeatedly told him not to do anything, and to wait for the police to arrest them.

 

[Dukat]

Didnt realise he went next door to shoot them hah.

Either way, the main point of the thread was about using deadly force to defend your property/household. This is something I believe strongly in, I think criminals get far too many rights when it comes to things like this and its refreshing to see someone being able to do something without being prosecuted for once.

 

[crispy]

Didnt realise he went next door to shoot them hah.

Either way, the main point of the thread was about using deadly force to defend your property/household. This is something I believe strongly in, I think criminals get far too many rights when it comes to things like this and its refreshing to see someone being able to do something without being prosecuted for once.

Try to ask yourself the question: Why is it illegal to use deadly force in many countries? (In the event of burglary and the likes).

 

[Huntingtons]

No they don't, only the act of planning something is illegal. I intend to give Gordon Brown a nice big slap when i see him next. done nothing wrong there.

terrorists intend to blow up something in dk, they got punished so rly...
in maryland you can shoot anybody if you feel a threat - dont that concern anybody?
allowing people to shoot will always bing bad ricochets on society. drunk people walking into a garden and then they are allowed to be shot? how much of defending personal space should it be allowed on? private paths? shoot youngsters doing housepranks? what about shooting a salesman who rings your bell?

 

[Dukat]

Try to ask yourself the question: Why is it illegal to use deadly force in many countries? (In the event of burglary and the likes).

I would imagine there are reasons, some good some bad.

At the end of the day though, if someone breaks into your house why should the law penalise you for defending your property?

 

[crispy]

I would imagine there are reasons, some good some bad.

At the end of the day though, if someone breaks into your house why should the law penalise you for defending your property?

The law is actually there to protect you and your family! I cant imagine anyone in their right mind would start a gunfight in their own house with their kids around. Do you really care that much for your shitty tv?

Another aspect: if its allowed to use deadly force burglars will have to deal with that also. ie. bringing weapons of their own. So the overall outcome of such a law is that people dont die under burgleries, both residents and intruders.

Best thing you can do in case of burglery: call the police and wait till they show up.

And remember, you are NOT being penalized for defending your property, but using excessive force. You dont want the police to use excessive force do you, so why should you be allowed?

 

[Cadelin]

At the end of the day though, if someone breaks into your house why should the law penalise you for defending your property?

I am sure at some point in your life you have broken the law, maybe you broke the speed limit while driving or maybe you illegally downloaded some music or a film. You are a criminal Dukat. We all know that two wrongs always make a right so I think its perfectly acceptable for someone to break into your house and take your stuff, if they were to find you in the house and kill its one less criminal on our streets...


The above comment was just to illustrate a point!

Any punishment has to be proportional to the severity of the crime commited. In the case highlighted it was 2 petty criminals that got killed so some people are not concerned about them but what happens if it had been children involved or there hadn't been a theft but just some kind of mis-understanding. And don't try and argue it was self defence, the theft was not on his property, he had time to phone the police and plenty of time to plan his actions.

 

[Dukat]

I am sure at some point in your life you have broken the law, maybe you broke the speed limit while driving or maybe you illegally downloaded some music or a film. You are a criminal Dukat. We all know that two wrongs always make a right so I think its perfectly acceptable for someone to break into your house and take your stuff, if they were to find you in the house and kill its one less criminal on our streets...


The above comment was just to illustrate a point!

Any punishment has to be proportional to the severity of the crime commited. In the case highlighted it was 2 petty criminals that got killed so some people are not concerned about them but what happens if it had been children involved or there hadn't been a theft but just some kind of mis-understanding.

Speeding is a topic thats best not gotten into here, seeing as its a rather large can of worms.

As for downloading music, how often does attempted software piracy end in innocent people being hurt/killed? How often does attempted burglary end in innocent people being hurt/killed? I think you'll find that burglary is far, far worse on this score.

If its kids then ofcourse its a different story, theres bound to be grey areas but at the end of the day if a petty thief or whoever decides to break into your house to steal your TV or whatever then they're asking for it.

Burglary is prone to end in innocent people being hurt. Not so much because of loss of property: What happens if my mum/little sister goes downstairs to get a drink while they're there? What happens if they start a fire by accident? And this is assuming the people breaking in are only interested in stealing stuff and dont intend to hurt anyone while they're inside. Either way thier entry into my home results in the potential for my family to come to harm and this is something I will not allow.

I just think that being put in prison for ensuring my family's wellbeing is wrong.

And don't try and argue it was self defence, the theft was not on his property, he had time to phone the police and plenty of time to plan his actions.

Read what I've posted. I didnt realise that he went onto his neighbours property to do it, the point of the thread is using deadly force to defend your property. Yes, the guy was wrong to go looking for it imo. However, I dont think he'd have been wrong to shoot them had it of been his house they were breaking into.

 

[Cadelin]

Read what I've posted. I didnt realise that he went onto his neighbours property to do it, the point of the thread is using deadly force to defend your property. Yes, the guy was wrong to go looking for it imo. However, I dont think he'd have been wrong to shoot them had it of been his house they were breaking into.

I have read what you have posted and you are allowed to defend yourself.

You seem to be jumping at individual cases and changing your mind when extra bits of information appear.

 

[Dukat]

You seem to be jumping at individual cases and changing your mind when extra bits of information appear.

So if I hear 2 + 2 = 4 and say that I agree, then change my mind when I hear that its actually 2 - 2 = 4 instead, thats wrong is it?

I didnt know he went over to his neighbours, that should be obvious from my original post. Like I've said over and over, the point is that you're allowed to defend your property in america, and I see this as a good reason to live there. Possibly the only good reason to live there, but still, a very good one.

 

[Cadelin]

So if I hear 2 + 2 = 4 and say that I agree, then change my mind when I hear that its actually 2 - 2 = 4 instead, thats wrong is it?

I didnt know he went over to his neighbours, that should be obvious from my original post. Like I've said over and over, the point is that you're allowed to defend your property in america, and I see this as a good reason to live there. Possibly the only good reason to live there, but still, a very good one.

Of course you are allowed to change your mind. The problem is that although you no longer think that this man was right you still think that the self defence laws in the US are better.

You also haven't explained why you think you aren't allowed to defend yourself in the UK (I assume thats where you are from). You can't obtain a gun in the UK for "self defence" but you can still defend yourself.

 

[crispy]

Burglary is prone to end in innocent people being hurt. Not so much because of loss of property: What happens if my mum/little sister goes downstairs to get a drink while they're there? What happens if they start a fire by accident? And this is assuming the people breaking in are only interested in stealing stuff and dont intend to hurt anyone while they're inside. Either way thier entry into my home results in the potential for my family to come to harm and this is something I will not allow.

I just think that being put in prison for ensuring my family's wellbeing is wrong.

You are not put to prison for protecting your family (which i assume you mean). However you ARE put to prison for assaulting the burglars... And it IS assault even if they are in your home.

You are putting ME and OTHERS in danger by acting so aggressive towards thieves, burglars etc, because in turn they will have to be prepared for situations like that, even if the house they enter wont have a psychopat with a shotgun.

 

[Platin]

Texas shooting of burglars at neighbors' raises debate - The Boston Globe

What if he woulda been mistaken and killed an innocent. I'm not crying any tears over the burglars, but this guy should be charged for murder.

 

[Dukat]

Of course you are allowed to change your mind. The problem is that although you no longer think that this man was right you still think that the self defence laws in the US are better.

You also haven't explained why you think you aren't allowed to defend yourself in the UK (I assume thats where you are from). You can't obtain a gun in the UK for "self defence" but you can still defend yourself.

Tony Martin went to prison for shooting two pikeys with a legally licenced firearm who had broken into his house. While its possible he went a bit too far, you hear of similar stories quite frequently.

My uncle is a magistrate and says hes seen cases of burglars sueing for being attacked by the owner of the property they're breaking into.

Too often in the UK the term 'defend yourself' is followed by the words 'using reasonable force'. reasonable force isnt something you can easily gauge during 'the moment' unless you're an expert in such things.

In america the laws are better: compare the tony martin case with the one in the original thread. had tony martin have lived in the US I doubt he would have been charged, let alone convicted.

 

[Dukat]

You are not put to prison for protecting your family (which i assume you mean). However you ARE put to prison for assaulting the burglars... And it IS assault even if they are in your home.

You are putting ME and OTHERS in danger by acting so aggressive towards thieves, burglars etc, because in turn they will have to be prepared for situations like that, even if the house they enter wont have a psychopat with a shotgun.

Excuse me? I'M putting people in danger?

Oh yea, its got nothing to do with the people who break in at all! uke:

 

[Cadelin]

Tony Martin went to prison for shooting two pikeys with a legally licenced firearm who had broken into his house. While its possible he went a bit too far, you hear of similar stories quite frequently.

Tony Martin hunted down and shot a child in the back repeatedly. A Jury of his peers (ie normal people) convicted him of murder.

 

[Dukat]

Tony Martin hunted down and shot a child in the back repeatedly. A Jury of his peers (ie normal people) convicted him of murder.

um...?

I take it you dont actually know what happened then?

 

[Bugz]

No they don't, only the act of planning something is illegal. I intend to give Gordon Brown a nice big slap when i see him next. done nothing wrong there.

Intention to murder.

Terrorist intentions.

They both are regarded as crimes IIRC.

 

[Cadelin]

um...?

I take it you dont actually know what happened then?

Wiki agrees with me

But please explain what you think actually happened?