F***ed up kids, is it the parent's fault?

[Dukat]

I agree that things have been getting worse for some time now, I agree with whoever said it was everything as opposed to any one thing.

Discipline in general is becomming lax, not just at home by perants but in schools by teachers and on the street by the law.

As was previously mentioned, once apon a time you feared the police, even if you'd only done the tiny'est thing wrong, if you saw a policeman you where sure they'd lock you up and throw away the key, and seeing someone resist a policeman was somthing you only saw in a film. Where as nowadays brawls with the police are almost commonplace and when they are present, they are rarely able to do anything.

And even if they could lock you up - prison is not what it once was, instead of being something to outright fear, prisons now have sources of entertainment, decent food, the possibility of taking some sort of learning course for a qualification, its probably a better accomodation that many hotels. while it isnt exactly 'fun', it is not somthing that alot of today's youth would fear enough to curb thier behaviour.

Its the same in schools, The teachers have very little control over the students, I once heard of one of my teachers actually getting hit by a student, whereas not so long ago it was the teachers that where in control and would actually use physicial force to maintain that control.

Nowadays they dont even have the legal right to enforce discipline properly, students can straight laugh in the face of a teacher and the worst they'll get is detention or suspension.

I believe the problems stem from the legal system being (in my opinion) a bit of a failure, and that the standard of education is very low, mainly due to the restrictions placed on teachers.

Perants I am not so sure about, I dont really know what is going wrong in this area or how it could be easily solved.

 

[Kami]

parents partly blame the school - which is to some extend also correct. Children in school talk like that to eachother even in the young grades. Teachers can try and act, but it wont really help as the kids can't be under guard all the time in every break. But it's also much the parents fault because they dont act and just blames school, puts all responsibility off their shoulders. But all in all, it's what the world is comming to - Earth is fucked coz of us

what can schools do though? my dads a department head at a local secondary and isn't as much as allowed to raise his voice to kids, if a fight breaks out they're not allowed to pull the kids apart they have to ask them nicely to stop. Fortunately my dads one of the teachers the kids actually like as he likes to have a laugh with them, but in situations like that there really very little he can do.

Personally I'd like them to bring back the belt, stop parents from suing schools and teach them some sodding rules. Society as a whole is far to soft these days on trouble makers.

Whilst your at it bring in the death penalty for murderers and lock up rapists and child abusers for life (and I mean life).

 

[Ormorof]

well when kids have kids, they grow up with just the values and ideals that their kid parents have, meaning they dont learn any better, its a self-perpetuating cycle it seems, i agree that parents have to take more responsibility for their kids but i honestly dont see violence as a feasible long term answer, neither me or either of my brothers were beaten when we were younger and we have turned out pretty well, whereas i know people who get beaten by their dads (until they were old enough to fight back that is) who have about as much respect/comprehension of authority as a goat.

violence in schools is still the responsibility of parents, not teachers, letting teachers punish pupils rarely achieves anything unless its followed up by recognition that the pupil did wrong by the parents, most parents these days seem to rush into schools whenever their kids get punished because theres no way "their little angel" could have set fire to those bins or beaten up that other kid....

 

[Huntingtons]

what do you achive by yelling at the top of your lungs profanity?
nothing

swearing is just is symobolism of how little respect there is left in modern society, and you degrade your character every time you do it.
Hell nobods perfect, but i doubt even you would swear in every sentance at a job interview

As for "whacking" kids, i said before theres a difference between giving them a slap on the arse when they do something wrong and hitting them across the head as hard as you can.
Reason? kid links pain with a certain acton so doesnt do it again as he/she knows only bad will come of it.

that's not respect, it's fear.
When i get beaten downtown, i fear the ones who did it, but i dont have a shred of respect for them. If i get drunk and i get threatened by the ones who have kicked me once before i'd yell back at them because i don thave respect for them (unlucky me that they happen to be bouncers ;<)

 

[Rediknight]

The smacking thing gets my goat - i wasn't by any stretch of the imagination "beaten", but i got a smack on the arse, or across the back of the legs more than once, and it worked too. If i didn't want to be smacked, i didn't do what i was told not to. Simple. I had the capacity to associate that smacking with the pain, and in turn, the catalyst of the smack was my behaviour.

Maybe the human race is actually devolving, back to a time when our brains were too preoccupied with fire and hunting, to the point where simple human reactions are beyond the new generation... Cept fire is from lighters and in cars, and hunting is stalking Mobile Phones... Hell, even chavettes have cave-girl hair now!!

Inside, we all still men of the cave i s'pose, but i reign mine in once in a while - how long before eating raw meat and dragging your wife home by her hair becomes fashionable again?

 

[Huntingtons]

The smacking thing gets my goat - i wasn't by any stretch of the imagination "beaten", but i got a smack on the arse, or across the back of the legs more than once, and it worked too. If i didn't want to be smacked, i didn't do what i was told not to. Simple. I had the capacity to associate that smacking with the pain, and in turn, the catalyst of the smack was my behaviour.

it's not respect still, it's fear, the fear of pain. the way i learned was through respect also fear, but not in pain. If i was told not to do something i would get an explanation why not to, if i didn't get it i'd do it again, get yelled at because i was told not to and get the explanation (and in some cases i'd get hurt from a fall or other forms of pain, fear in that sence). And if i dad told me not to do some stuff, i didn't do it of sheer respect for my dad.

 

[Rediknight]

it's not respect still, it's fear, the fear of pain. the way i learned was through respect also fear, but not in pain. If i was told not to do something i would get an explanation why not to, if i didn't get it i'd do it again, get yelled at because i was told not to and get the explanation (and in some cases i'd get hurt from a fall or other forms of pain, fear in that sence). And if i dad told me not to do some stuff, i didn't do it of sheer respect for my dad.

but that respect appears to be vanishing quickly - If your kid was trying to set fire to the curtains, and you shouted at them, it got attention. If he then wants attention again, and he's that kind of kid, he'll know setting fire to the curtain does just that. Im not saying smash your kids face in with a shovel, im saying that if a kid associates punishment with being naughty, then it instills a certain "moral rightness" into them from an age when it's going to make a difference. Shouting at a kid isn't punishment - it's you losing your temper. Slapping a kids arse, or legs, then telling them "NO!" and sending em off to their room, or specified "naughty area" has a MUCH bigger effect - they can then associate the "crime" with the "punishment", instead of just associating being naughty with "get's mom/dad to shout a lot, and go red" - they know that, they have a remote control for you. Don't underestimate kids, they catch onto things far quicker than i think even they realise.

Teach young, then they can learn for themselves.

 

[Huntingtons]

but that respect appears to be vanishing quickly - If your kid was trying to set fire to the curtains, and you shouted at them, it got attention. If he then wants attention again, and he's that kind of kid, he'll know setting fire to the curtain does just that. Im not saying smash your kids face in with a shovel, im saying that if a kid associates punishment with being naughty, then it instills a certain "moral rightness" into them from an age when it's going to make a difference. Shouting at a kid isn't punishment - it's you losing your temper. Slapping a kids arse, or legs, then telling them "NO!" and sending em off to their room, or specified "naughty area" has a MUCH bigger effect - they can then associate the "crime" with the "punishment", instead of just associating being naughty with "get's mom/dad to shout a lot, and go red" - they know that, they have a remote control for you. Don't underestimate kids, they catch onto things far quicker than i think even they realise.

Teach young, then they can learn for themselves.

hitting a child is attention as well ;o you seem to look narrow on it. Not every child in the world has been neglected the attention they needed.
(and if you it becomes legal to hit your child the abuse will raise tremendously because many parents cant control it)

 

[Adoctor]

bring back the cane ...i miss it

private school + being naughty = caning of the hands or size 12 slipper on arse ..... ah the good old days

discipline and bad parenting is too blame for alot of anti-social problems.

blaming society is the gay way out. Children follow their parents, if they swear the children swear, etc. etc.

 

[Rediknight]

hitting a child is attention as well ;o you seem to look narrow on it. Not every child in the world has been neglected the attention they needed.
(and if you it becomes legal to hit your child the abuse will raise tremendously because many parents cant control it)

what do you mean? It IS legal, and always has been! It's obviously not legal to commit assault on a child (assault = causing someone bruising, scuffing, reddening or abrasions of the skin. Any action which leaves a mark basically) but saying many parents can't control "it" is bullshit - You're seriously trying to tell me that there will be a sudden glut of parents smashing the crap out of their kids heads, throwing them down stairs, bouncing them off of walls??

Im easily the least violent, most passive, most laid back, most forgiving and most easy going of ANYONE i know, and i was smacked as a kid. People seem to think that even letting the thought of laying your hand on your kids arse after he's run out into the road for the 50th time is going to turn that kid into a psychopath who wants to kill everyone in revenge for his cruel, evil mother. Fuck that - It's mountains and molehills - since the dawn of time parents have smacked kids - some have gone too far, most haven't. Nothings going to change if smacking is outlawed, other than having hundreds of moms n dads of young kids in ye olde gaol, with thousands more kids in care.

mmmm, i like the way Europes turning us into this paranoid freak-show of a nation...

 

[soze]

Just bring in national service or give the courts the option to force enlistment onto these kids and let the army or military prision sort it out.

 

[Darksword]

never did me any harm, nothing wrong with discipline tbh
but theres a difference between discipline and abuse


i honestly do feel sorry for you if you arent joking

stupid logic really. Just because it didnt harm you doesnt mean its not going to harm the next kid that comes along, thats got no confidence, and could just be the thing to tip him over the edge and make him do something stupid like jump infront of a train, or pick up a knife and stop his parents beating him for making a simple mistake. I know this is an extreme, but yes things like this do happen, and by beating each other up were not solving anything.
All this will do is put in a situation where one generation beats up the next to conform to there ideals, and to do as they are told, or else they'll get a thump/kick/slap. You read about it all the time, low self esteem because he/she was bullied, felt there was no one to turn to so they took matters into there own hands. This does happen, and if you dont believe me then just look at the amount of people that have attempted to commit suicide, and think about why. I mean Durkheims study is a classic in which he looked at suicide rates across europe and then looked at religion/home life etc and concluded that most of the people that commit suicide may have felt excluded from society and had a difficult time. The same would happen if we decide to reinstate the cane, or allow parents/teachers/police/the woman across the street who doesnt like a kid saying a particular word to hit a child so they speak/do as they are told to. (and yes im fully aware of the criticisms of such studys)

Now i know again this is an extreme, but i doubt you can argue succesfully that a child who is raised through "hard discipline" will not have social problems, mental problems, and may even do the same to his own children feeling that "it didnt do me any harm". I know the majority of society may be able to cope with it, however is it worth risking those that may not be able to? The outcome will most probably be devastating.

And - Yes parents are undoubtably to blame to a certain extent, the home is after all the primary source of socialisation, where most children learn to talk/communicate/act etc. However alot of things have influence such as chool, religion, peer groups, society, tv, and it seems like a very right/new right view to take that the home is to blame. I personally believe in nurture over nature, and so feel that disciplining children through hitting them is the wrong way to deal with things. However i personally dont have a solution to this problem that society is going to face in the next few years in which a minority (and i say minority because i would class myself as one of the youth, being that im not 17 for another month, and the majority of people my age/around my age are pleasent people) of people will be rude/disrespectful for no reason. the reason this will seem like such a big problem (im not claiming its a small problem, however i do feel the problem is being blown out of all proportion, largely by the media (as they always do )) is because a bad encounter will stick in your mind over a good one. So if you met me and i was pleasant you wouldnt think much of it, but if you met me and i told you to fuck off and get a life or something rude like that, you'd probably come and post on FH about how bad mannered the youth are.

well ive ranted ALOT now and alot of thats probably off topic but some of its gotta be relevent really

 

[Marc]

I think a lot of parents still do give their child the odd whack across the legs or hands even though its technically illegal.

 

[Darksword]

what do you mean? It IS legal, and always has been! It's obviously not legal to commit assault on a child (assault = causing someone bruising, scuffing, reddening or abrasions of the skin. Any action which leaves a mark basically) but saying many parents can't control "it" is bullshit - You're seriously trying to tell me that there will be a sudden glut of parents smashing the crap out of their kids heads, throwing them down stairs, bouncing them off of walls??

Im easily the least violent, most passive, most laid back, most forgiving and most easy going of ANYONE i know, and i was smacked as a kid. People seem to think that even letting the thought of laying your hand on your kids arse after he's run out into the road for the 50th time is going to turn that kid into a psychopath who wants to kill everyone in revenge for his cruel, evil mother. Fuck that - It's mountains and molehills - since the dawn of time parents have smacked kids - some have gone too far, most haven't. Nothings going to change if smacking is outlawed, other than having hundreds of moms n dads of young kids in ye olde gaol, with thousands more kids in care.

mmmm, i like the way Europes turning us into this paranoid freak-show of a nation...

So your willing to look into the eyes of a small child who gets beat for his parent excessivly (sp?) for the smalled thing? "some have gone too far," and that reason alone should be enough for anyone to understand why it is illegal and should remain illegal.

i know some parents still hit there children, indeed a large proportion will, but it is wrong and by making it legal it would make it appear right and make the child feel like he/she deserves to be hit. its simply wrong

 

[Darksword]

Here it's safer to look like one of them, and behave like you have an attitude problem. Then they think you're one of them.

hehe "walk like a champion, talk like a champion" ahve ur confidence and 99% of the time they know not to fuck. also if they give you evil looks its usually good to give them one right back, but just for a split second so they know ur disgusted in there behaviour etc and keep going. if they start anything do the best thing u can - pick one of the ***** and lay into him till his mates fuck off scared that ur some nut job thats not gunna leave them alive. havent tried it yet coz i dont get much bother but heard of it working so

A very famous man once said:



Can you guess who?

Spoiler

Socrates 400 BC!!! Some things never change... Hehe.

hehe true - societys got a way of looking back to when they were younger, usually 20 years before and refering to it as some sort of golden era when everything was good - when they were the kids, and saying the youth is now screwed up, like they did back in the 60's 70's with the teddy boys or whatever i think they were called.

 

[Ezteq]

that thing on the news about the 5 year old who was beaten then strangled (he lived btw) by the gang of 11 and 12 year olds makes me want to cry, can just imagine the poor little sod wanting to play with the bigger kids then them savaging him, sadly this isnt a new thing most of you wont of heard of a girl called mary bell who killed a little boy in the 60's i think she was only a kid herself then we have the jamie bulger murder and that must have been about 10 years ago.


the problem with discapline and attitude leading to violence frightens me, the thought that it's going to get worse terrifies me.

 

[Job]

The problem has many sources, kids are exposed to adult humour too early from TV/Movies, they are dressed like adults by their parents (you can buy thongs for 5 yr olds now).
People increasingly expect kids to understand adult notions and let them in on things they haven't grasped the consequences off.

We have a kids saturday morning show in the UK that regularly covers Supermodels dressed as schoolgirls in slime (no shit Caprice was on last month in a schooly outfit, short skirt, stockings, covered in slime, 9am in the morning).

We glorify people who get it all for nothing and scoff at those who work and study hard as 'nerds', being loud mouthed, obnoxious, lazy, thick can all be plus points in society now.

What do kids do anyway, they can't play in the street like they did in the 60's, all streets are full of cars, if you kick a ball the car owners go apeshit, if they make a noise people moan they can't hear the TV.
we have taken away every avenue of their childhood play, replaced it with Adult tv and adult games, then complain when they get in trouble cos they hang around chip shops and start to follow the local brain dead hard-knocks.

We get the kids we deserve.

 

[Rediknight]

So your willing to look into the eyes of a small child who gets beat for his parent excessivly (sp?) for the smalled thing? "some have gone too far," and that reason alone should be enough for anyone to understand why it is illegal and should remain illegal.

i know some parents still hit there children, indeed a large proportion will, but it is wrong and by making it legal it would make it appear right and make the child feel like he/she deserves to be hit. its simply wrong

Dude, do you honestly think that saying that it's illegal will stop a parent with anger management problems from assaulting his kid???? You're living in some crazy world if you think thats so, tbh.

To that, im pretty offended by over-zealous "parenting" groups, and people like you, who think that all of a sudden the human race is incapable of bringing up kids, without being given a set of rules, even though millions are born every day and live long and healthy lives. Yeah, protest for laws that change the world for the better, but make it tenable laws, which are realistic and not reactionary to the latest media induced hype.

Im not heartless, but 100 years ago kids were forced to work down mines, up chimneys and in some of the most hazardous conditions - they're our grandparents and in some cases our parents. Nowadays kids don't understand the connection between crime and punishment - they are immune and Europe keeps it that way.

anyone want a cuppa? im parched...

 

[Darksword]

Dude, do you honestly think that saying that it's illegal will stop a parent with anger management problems from assaulting his kid???? You're living in some crazy world if you think thats so, tbh.

To that, im pretty offended by over-zealous "parenting" groups, and people like you, who think that all of a sudden the human race is incapable of bringing up kids, without being given a set of rules, even though millions are born every day and live long and healthy lives. Yeah, protest for laws that change the world for the better, but make it tenable laws, which are realistic and not reactionary to the latest media induced hype.

Im not heartless, but 100 years ago kids were forced to work down mines, up chimneys and in some of the most hazardous conditions - they're our grandparents and in some cases our parents. Nowadays kids don't understand the connection between crime and punishment - they are immune and Europe keeps it that way.

anyone want a cuppa? im parched...

yes but by making it legal it presents the act as being acceptable in society. I feel the law is there to protect us and those around us and thats WHY hitting children should be illegal, to try and protect them. if it was legal and someone hits a child nothing will ever be done about it, where as if its illegal and you see someone hitting a child and you report them, someone will intervine for the wellbeing of that child, even if that child is taken away from its parents, the protection of the youth is the most important thing any society can do to ensure a better future imo. Also if you read my other post i point out that the media is stupid and blows everything out of proportion - immigration, people claiming benefits, mrsa, that woman who had her operation rescheduled 3 times (such a rare case that it happens less than a 1/4% of the time or something). also if you look most the time its a party that backs the rights views of hardline control.

i dont think parents are incapable of raising there children, if i did then i would have said "YES ITS THE PARENTS FAULT THEY CANT RAISE THERE CHILDREN AND SO THE KIDS ARE OUT THERE KILLING PEOPLE CONSTANTLY AND ITS HORRIBLE AND THESE PEOPLE SHOULD BE NUTTERED!" or something stupid like that. if you read my post i point out that the minority(or possibly even the majority, that isnt the point) use violence to raise there children and i personally feel this is wrong. There are other methods that much better and dont leave a 5 year old child brused both physically and mentally while sat there thinking what did i do wrong to deserve being hit so badly, and when that childs been hit by his own mother who can he turn to? and dont say it doesnt happen because it does, and that happening even once, to any child of any age is too often. any law that attempts to safeguard the security of that child from harm must be kept in place. so go ahead and be offended by my "zealot views" and my opinions, but just consider that there are people out there who are disturbed because they were hit as a child. i know its a very small minority, but do you not agree that even that is too much in a world where there is already too much hate, anger and pain? <Shrug>

 

[Job]

Reminds me of the classic MATT cartoon from the telegraph.

Two Generals discussing the Iraq war.

''We can invade and capture Saddam ,but we can't smack him'

Not using pain for chastisment is a big step, for the liberals and cuddly thinkers it's a comfortable solution, but it just doesn't work, pain evolved over billions of years and creatures have been using to control their offspring for most of that.
But then along comes us and we ponder our navels for a few hundred years and then decide that living things have rights (well depending on how cute they are to us, Dolphins seem to have more 'rights' than Tuna for some reason).
We decide pain of any level whatsoever is a breach of those rights, but do these morons know where they are going with this?
We accept certain levels of discomfort, in life you have to pay for less discomfort, if it slowly becomes a human right, then we'll all be in first class by law.

 

[Lakashnik]

(you can buy thongs for 5 yr olds now).

that is wrong on so many levels.
just ewwww. all the girls who used to wear them at school when like 14-15 were just attention seekers or sluts. trying not to imagine a 5yr old slut going around primary school telling the boys she has a thong on and just ewww

 

[Huntingtons]

besides, it's not hot unless she has a firm body

 

[Lakashnik]

most girls cant pull off a thong imo. doesnt stop them from doing it.
they are like omfgwtffbbqpwn im wearing a thong i have to be hot now.

its like when peter griffon wears a bikini to try and seduce luke perry.
he pulls it up like a thong around his huge ass and makes him puke. thats how i feel with most girls that wear them.

 

[Darksword]

yeh loads of girls wear thongs that dont suit them but most of my friends that wear them just seem to wear them coz they like them not coz there sluts <Shrugs>. tho intrestingly enough some of the hottest girls in my schools dont wear thongs, or atleast dont show them off.

+ french knickers look better imo (most the time)

and yeh thongs etc for 5 year olds is sick

 

[Rediknight]

+ french knickers look better imo (most the time)

QFE

 

[Darksword]

QFE

qfe? whats that mean?

 

[DocWolfe]

The problem has many sources, kids are exposed to adult humour too early from TV/Movies, they are dressed like adults by their parents (you can buy thongs for 5 yr olds now).
People increasingly expect kids to understand adult notions and let them in on things they haven't grasped the consequences off.

We have a kids saturday morning show in the UK that regularly covers Supermodels dressed as schoolgirls in slime (no shit Caprice was on last month in a schooly outfit, short skirt, stockings, covered in slime, 9am in the morning).

We glorify people who get it all for nothing and scoff at those who work and study hard as 'nerds', being loud mouthed, obnoxious, lazy, thick can all be plus points in society now.

What do kids do anyway, they can't play in the street like they did in the 60's, all streets are full of cars, if you kick a ball the car owners go apeshit, if they make a noise people moan they can't hear the TV.
we have taken away every avenue of their childhood play, replaced it with Adult tv and adult games, then complain when they get in trouble cos they hang around chip shops and start to follow the local brain dead hard-knocks.

We get the kids we deserve.

To be honest I think thats a load of rubbish... TV and Computer Games are always the easy thing to blame for violence... like that Colombine insident where the kid went into school with a gun and gunned down about 20 students. If your messed up in the head then watching a TV program or playing a computer game isn't going to affect the fact that they are messed up.

As a normal sane person, if I see a person getting gored on tele I dont think, wow that looks cool I'll go and do it to some little kid.

Now back to the issue, whether parents to blame, yes and no. Most of the chavs you see about today are third generation benefit abusers, their parents were on the dole and their parents before them were on the dole and because they have no strong role model in the family they don't feel the need to go and get a job because they can live for free, and the others are the product of single mothers who are prolly working long hours just to pay the bills and so the parent hardly ever sees the kid and is unable to dish out any kind of punishment if they do something wrong.

I think the current state of society is to blame, not simply the parents.

 

[Outlander]

I blame mimes. Only mimes can bring about so much hate in the world.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I blame mimes. Only mimes can bring about so much hate in the world.

I disagree.

 

[Rediknight]

qfe? whats that mean?

Quoted For Emphasis

+ french knickers look better imo (most the time)

QFE x2!