Energy Descent

[SawTooTH]

I've been reading a lot about peak oil recently after seeing the documentary Collapse (Michael Rupert documentary)and I wondered whether there were any politicians in the UK taking this seriously.

I came across a cross party committee policy document about Tradable energy quotas

www.appgopo.org.uk/documents/TEQ_18Jan2011.pdf

What worries me is the timescale. They are saying that the real impact will start to be felt in 2013 and beyond. The governments response is to electrify the road network! This doesn't really address the real issues regarding feeding the 65 million people on this island when agrochemicals and transport costs start to soar.

The document goes on about how to prepare society for energy descent. I think this is a phrase you should look out for in the near future.

 

[Moriath]

And we are still being encouraged to buy powered tooth brushes, powered pregnancy devices you pee on and throw away and such which ad very little benefit for their additional usage of oil

The economic democracies are crap.... they continue to exist on the fact that everything should continue to rise .. i.e. usage and consumption.

There is no way for that to rise infinitly and therefore we are all fucked... all you can do is hope that you die before everything implodes

 

[SawTooTH]

I'm as guilty as the next man of consumerism...probably more so counting all the gizmos and gadgets i have. This made me terribly depressed for quite a while when i realised the scale of the coming fall.

This is going to make the quake in Japan seem like a drop in the water.

I was hoping that I'd see out the oil age but perhaps not. We are going to see mass starvation on a scale never seen before touching the Western democracies. Survival depends if the UK can do a Cuba and make people grow their own.
Can't imagine that working as our society in the UK is not equipped or ready for this, leading to social unrest, martial law, blockade of migration, rise of neo-fascist political groups. The futures not bright.

 

[old.Tohtori]

DOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!

Pfft, heard it before.

 

[Bodhi]

Oh...My...God. Do people honestly still believe that "CO2 will end the world!"!"" shite? Fucking hell folks if you want a gas that causes "Global Warming", then look no further than water vapour, or methane. Both of which have far greater Greenhouse properties than plant food, yet aren't subject to the same mass hysteria.

Let's face it no one really gives a fuck if it's going to get a touch warmer, or if the Dutchies are going to have to build a slightly stronger damn, what this is really about is protecting our oil reserves, which is easy to do. Make electicity with nuclear power, move us around with oil, job jobbed.

 

[Tuthmes]

Yes, cause 7 billion people living on this earth doesnt effect it at all. The entire earth population tripled in 60 years. No matter how you look at it (resourse, greenhouse gasses, species going extinct, whatever) it will effect the earth and us all.

Also no matter what the cause is, it is getting hotter and there are more greenhouse gasses in the air (not even saying the 2 are related).


Ill agree that nobody gives a fk. Well actually I do, but there's nothing I can do about it. Actually I'm quite certain the Dutch care about it too.

 

[Tom]

Yes but nobody cares what the Dutch think.

 

[rynnor]

Also no matter what the cause is, it is getting hotter and there are more greenhouse gasses in the air (not even saying the 2 are related).

Hotter than what though? Where do you set the ground point in something that changes over time - in reality when you look at the geological record for the last few hundred million years we are experiencing an unusually cool spell.

We used to have temperatures similar to the tropics today in the UK with warm seas teeming with life - maybe we are on the long haul back to that?

 

[Ctuchik]

Hotter than what though? Where do you set the ground point in something that changes over time - in reality when you look at the geological record for the last few hundred million years we are experiencing an unusually cool spell.

We used to have temperatures similar to the tropics today in the UK with warm seas teeming with life - maybe we are on the long haul back to that?

I doubt that.

Mainly because we have thousands and thousands of fishing boats doing their best to cause mass extinction to as much sealife as they possibly can, and farmers that do their best to claim as much of the forest as they can so they can grow even more manipulated crap.

It will get hotter but we won't see that "teeming with life" part, ever. Only way we would see that is if half the worlds population woke up really really dead one morning.

 

[Helme]

Oh...My...God. Do people honestly still believe that "CO2 will end the world!"!"" shite? Fucking hell folks if you want a gas that causes "Global Warming", then look no further than water vapour, or methane. Both of which have far greater Greenhouse properties than plant food, yet aren't subject to the same mass hysteria.

Global warming and oil reserves are two totally different issues, except for the fact that if we run out of oil we'll pollute less. You don't have to believe in global warming to realise that oil is going to run out and when it does - we'll be completely fucked because we can't plan long term. It's not popular among the people, and thus it's something you can't get elected for. Everyone seems to have collectively decided that it's the future generations problem, like always.

 

[rynnor]

Everyone seems to have collectively decided that it's the future generations problem, like always.

It's the only sensible reaction - at some point in the next few thousand years we will enter another Ice age and the UK will become un-inhabitable.

Do we move now or wait for future generations who are actually effected by it to do something?

 

[Helme]

There's a slight difference between a few thousand years, and your grandchildren.

 

[rynnor]

There's a slight difference between a few thousand years, and your grandchildren.

Prove it - you have to remember that as a heavily traded commodity there are many who try to talk up the price for their own ends - all we see is speculation.

 

[Moriath]

i dont give a shit i got no kids and dont plan on any .. so all your off spring can fry for all i care as long as its after i die .. i not bothered tbh

 

[Helme]

Prove that oil is running out, and it just isn't speculation? I don't know if I can prove that, but I think it's quite telling how insistent Iran is on acquiring Nuclear Power despite having the worlds third largest supply of oil.

As for the difference between the two, an ice age is something we pretty much can't do anything about but we do actually have options when it comes to oil, some of them wildly unpopular - but options nonetheless. An added bonus is that pretty much all of these options are universally good for the environment too - even if you don't believe in global warming I think you'd agree that smog-cities like Beijing and Los Angeles aren't exactly attractive.

 

[rynnor]

Prove that oil is running out, and it just isn't speculation? I don't know if I can prove that, but I think it's quite telling how insistent Iran is on acquiring Nuclear Power despite having the worlds third largest supply of oil.

It wants to enrich uranium to weapons grade and nuke Israel or just to defend itself - not related to energy crises I'd say.

As for the difference between the two, an ice age is something we pretty much can't do anything about but we do actually have options when it comes to oil, some of them wildly unpopular - but options nonetheless.

Not really - at the very least we could all move southwards or we could get really exotic and try to cause a greenhouse effect etc. etc.

We dont even know for sure what actually causes Ice ages - it might be preventable.

 

[old.Tohtori]

- it might be preventable.

Yeah cause f*cking with the planet is a good idea

If oil runs out, then it runs out. Not like there's a point in saving it. Nuclear cars thank you.

 

[Helme]

Iran doesn't want nuclear power for nukes, that's just just another western propaganda(for lack of a better word) campaign to paint Iran as an enemy because they don't sell to us instead of China or Russia.

None of the numerous outside investigations into their nuclear projects have revealed anything that points towards nuclear weapons. Looking at international laws, they've done nothing wrong - in fact, they are on more solid legal footing than Israel who refuses to sign any nuclear treaties, or allow any inspections on its nuclear arsenal.

That said, I would actually support Iran having nukes. Ahmadinejad isn't any more crazy than Netanyahu, and it would deter the western super powers from another unnecessary war in the region where everyone loses except Xe Services and it's ilk.

 

[Will]

If oil runs out, then it runs out. Not like there's a point in saving it. Nuclear cars thank you.

Where would the plastics and the fertiliser come from?

 

[Tom]

Oil won't run out, it'll just get more expensive as newer, more difficult to drill sources come online.

Doom-mongers have been saying that oil will run out for decades. It won't.

 

[Raven]

Yeah its an infinite source! ololol

 

[Trem]

I like what Helme and Rynnor are saying, pretty interesting.

There is shit loads of oil but its in places where the companies aren't allowed to drill (Antartic etc) I can just see that restriction being lifted in the next 50 years. What they need is something that won't fuck that region up when they do start.

Meh, its all bullshit to put more money in governments pockets and you don't hear the oil companies complaining too much either.

Trust me if everyone drove cars that weren't taxable this country would shit a brick. You know, they say drive this because its better for the trees with polar bears living in them but if everyone bought a zero road tax car that used fuck all fuel then the shit would truly hit the fan.

We cannot live without oil, like Will said its not just used to move your car, it is used in so many thousands of everyday items its scary.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Where would the plastics and the fertiliser come from?

Neither needed for nuclear cars!

Steampunk would be the norm, which would be cool as hell.

We cannot live without oil, like Will said its not just used to move your car, it is used in so many thousands of everyday items its scary.

Bullcrap. We CAN live without oil just fine. We don't WANT to live without it, there's a solid difference.

 

[Tom]

Yeah its an infinite source! ololol

So you don't think that as oil becomes scarce, its price will go up? You don't then think that previously unviable oilfields will then become viable?

Oil won't be running out.

 

[Raven]

So you're sayings it's an infinite source? Seriously?

Obviously the rarer it gets the higher it's price, until it runs out. You do know what oil is...right?

 

[SAS]

Tom is sort of right BUT with huge hikes in oil prices it will mean the common man and woman won't be able to afford it... over time this will cause utter chaos. Wars will break out e.t.c.

Last Light: Amazon.co.uk: Alex Scarrow: Books

Product Description
It seems to be a very normal Monday morning. But in the space of only a few days, the world's oil supplies have been severed and at a horrifying pace things begin to unravel everywhere. civilisation have flexed their muscles before, at other significant tipping points in history, and they are prepared to do anything to keep their secret - and their power - safe.

Does not make for light reading, but interesting

 

[Helme]

You're contradicting yourself, oil becomes scarce but isn't running out? What exactly is stopping these supposedly infinite sources on the poles from running out? Positive thinking? They'll be gone within a hundred or so years as well(which is about how long the current oil reserves have lasted). What then?

 

[Tom]

So you're sayings it's an infinite source? Seriously?

Obviously the rarer it gets the higher it's price, until it runs out. You do know what oil is...right?

No I'm not saying its an infinite source, although to be pedantic over a long enough period of time that is almost what it is.

It is a source of fuel that shows no signs of running out for a long time to come, but as it does become scarce, its price will rise. That will force people to use it more wisely. It will also enable the opening of oilfields that currently, are financially unviable.

Oil supply isn't as simple as a tap running dry.

 

[Trem]

Bullcrap. We CAN live without oil just fine. We don't WANT to live without it, there's a solid difference.

You DO know what oil and its by-products is used in don't you?

Yes I guess we could live without it if we were to go back to living like we used to (horses, bows and arrows, caves etc) but countless millions would die in the process.

Think Mad Max and then some.

 

[old.user4556]

I do think we piss a lot of oil up the wall.

Does anyone else think that the car will (once again...) be an object of luxury for the well off?