Education & second languages.

[Kryten]

I was sat in a hospital waiting room the other day whilst wife was being poked and prodded, and in walks a mother with her young son. She wasn't much older than me - 30 at most, and had a slight south african twang to her voice. Her child, 3 years old tops.

I took an instant dislike to the young lady, something I do with many South Africans until they prove unlike the cocky arrogant gits so many are. Not racist or anything - just cultural differences that make many of them appear like this.

She then started playing word games with her child, sounding out letters and basic 3 letter words as well as some simple and common longer words - please, thank you, hello, goodbye, offering encouragement and congratulation all the way - the boy was good. Then she started the same again - in French. And the boy repeated it, some off the cuff, word by word, letter by letter, and I sat there in admiration and awe.

From then I've wondered really what the English are lacking in education. All over Europe, these kids are taught English alongside their mother tongue from this early age and in the most cases this is very evident. I've been on Quakenet for 10 years now, and had been support staff for 6 of them, and the standard of english as a second language was often better than most English people.

So what are the English lacking? I can only start to blame things like taking it too slowly at nursery-infant levels, Tellytubbies and the like, but the difference between the average european and the average English person is astonishing in this manner.

Apologies for the serious thread, we don't get many - but I'm just rather curious, and knowing we have some europeans as part of our community and others who will know how the education system works elsewhere - might be able to find some answers.

Now -

 

[ECA]

Really simple - we dont start language teaching at an early age, not in most cases is it mandatory.

If I was prime minister, we'd setup a teaching program and get bucketloads of chinese teachers over here and kids would get ~6hrs+ a week from age 4 to 16 of chinese.

Also minimum 1hr PE a day - in the morning.

 

[throdgrain]

We're english, all we need to do is speak LOUDER and SLOWER

 

[old.Tohtori]

It's the same with geography etc.

The average UK(and especially US) person couldn't care less about Finland, our government, our laws, whatnot, but the average Finnish person knows most things about the UK/US.

Just a by-product of being "big" in the world. Kinda arrogant in itself, even if understandable.

 

[Kryten]

I can understand why. English has worked out to be how Esperanto was intended - i.e. to be a common language especially among businesses. An Italian business will deal with a German business in English, etc.
I can sort of see why, but I don't feel the arrogance is doing the average child much good. Take a look at the state of our youth culture - in most cases I can't see it being one of well taught kids with respect for other cultures and societies.

Just getting cynical and old I suppose :|

 

[gunner440]

At the schools I've attended it was always compulsory to be learning a second language. At GCSE level we HAD to have a second language - same as the students at the A Level range (we followed the IB curriculum and had to learn a second language then as well).

I felt bad once back when I was still living at home (in Spain) when I saw an English couple at a restaurant getting pissed off at a waiter because he didn't speak their language. Quote from them: "I can't believe he doesn't speak bloody English. Is it that difficult?"

On the topic of education as well one thing that pisses me off is spelling. People don't think spelling counts for much nowadays but blah, maybe it's just me. We had weekly spelling tests back at school from about the age of 8 and if we had any wrong we were made to fill up one side of lined paper with nothing but that word. The people scoring 3/20 quickly learned.

 

[GReaper]

What second language do you suggest everyone should learn? I learnt Spanish at school, yet I've never bothered using it mostly because I've never had to.

The vast majority of people from other countries will learn English as a second language because it's the one of the most widespread second languages. They'll get the opportunity to read it on a daily basis using the Internet, or various other sources which aren't translated into their native language. The only way of becoming fluent in a foreign language is through regular use.

What use is there in teaching a foreign language to pupils for a few hours a week when they're unlikely to use it in future? It's pointless forcing them to learn it when those valuable hours could go into something that they are more likely to need once they leave school. The 550-600 hours I spent learning a second language could've gone into something else.

 

[TdC]

I don't feel the arrogance is doing the average child much good. Take a look at the state of our youth culture - in most cases I can't see it being one of well taught kids with respect for other cultures and societies.

indeed. tbh the speaking languages besides one's mother tongue opens you up to cultural and social aspects on a vastly wider scale than doing it with one language alone. that extra availability of, and willingness to interact is where the future is.

 

[Gumbo]

My mother is Norweigan, and unfortunately, when I was a wee 'un she was forbidden by my father and his side of the family to talk to me or my sister in Norweigan. As a result, whilst I have some Norweigan, I am by no means fluent.

I'm doing the opposite when when my daughter arrives in January. Mum will be forbidden to speak to her in anything other than Norweigan. With some luck she'll be fairly fluent by the time she reaches primary school.

 

[gunner440]

The only way of becoming fluent in a foreign language is through regular use.

Bollocks. :]

 

[Kryten]

I think TDC hit the nail on the head there. It's not just about "because we can or should" - it prepares the mind properly and opens it to those other societies we are otherwise entirely ignorant of.

A second language is still compulsory at GCSE grade, but what good is that?
The majority of people who spend those few hours each week for 6 hours come out having aced their GCSE knowing how to ask for (and give) directions to Macdonalds, then order a Big Mac and Fries. And of course a whole plethora of naughty words, which have all been ringed, highlighted and scribbled upon in the owner's German/French dictionary.


I think a lot of my point isn't so much "the hours should be put to better use" as per GReapers comment - but more along the lines of the europeans manage to do it as well as their normal compulsory subjects and still come out at the end as decent all round well educated folks - why can't we?

 

[haarewin]

i really wish here in england we learned other languages from the off.
i'm really enjoying learning another language (i'm studying japanese, with a tutor, alone, and by speaking with japanese people), and i loved learning french and german at school. i've pretty much completely forgotten both because i haven't used them.
time to take a leaf from the rest of the world and begin language education at a younger age imo.

 

[throdgrain]

It's the same with geography etc.

The average UK(and especially US) person couldn't care less about Finland, our government, our laws, whatnot, but the average Finnish person knows most things about the UK/US.

Just a by-product of being "big" in the world. Kinda arrogant in itself, even if understandable.

You're right of course. I for one couldnt give a shit about Denmark.

Sorry, Finland

 

[Thadius]

Another problem is the fact though we are all English, we all sound so differently!

Scouse, Yorkshire, Bristol, Cornwall, Geordie, Cockney are all vastly different.

Personally, I think they should scrap French and start teaching languages like Polish and Russian, purely for the fact its going to be more practical ito do so .

 

[tris-]

i was taught french at school.
the only use ive had for it was pretending to be french to pull an english girl, which worked perfectly well

 

[Kryten]

Thadius - tbh on that note you raise an interesting point.
Should we have Scouse and Geordie lessons?

 

[Chilly]

why would you ever want to talk to a scouser?

 

[Kryten]

Self preservation.
And it certainly helps to know Geordie - for instance, it's never wise to walk into Middlesborough and call someone there a Geordie.

 

[old.Tohtori]

You're right of course. I for one couldnt give a shit about Denmark.

Sorry, Finland

Exactly, and you shouldn't really, there's no expectation

But the funniest people, in the UK view of things, are those who get "shocked" when i tell them that Scandic(or other nations) people don't really give a crap about things going on in merry old England, while at the same time being totally ignorant of other countries

 

[tris-]

Self preservation.
And it certainly helps to know Geordie - for instance, it's never wise to walk into Middlesborough and call someone there a Geordie.

people do it all the time, fucking pisses me off!

 

[throdgrain]

Exactly, and you shouldn't really, there's no expectation

But the funniest people, in the UK view of things, are those who get "shocked" when i tell them that Scandic(or other nations) people don't really give a crap about things going on in merry old England, while at the same time being totally ignorant of other countries

Yeah but they should want to know, christ anything of any worth came from England. Even bad things!

WE INVENTED TIME FFS!!

 

[FuzzyLogic]

I've recently begun learning Japanese at college, speaking only right now, and while it's not proving easy i'm liking it largely because the tutor is giving some context of why the language is spoken the way it is, for example the Japanese for English, Igirisu, originated from the first landing Portuguese telling the Japanese in their own language who the English were, which would have been a dialect of Spanish, inglés. It sounds batshitloco to me but at least it makes sense and does help in one way or another.

It's one of those things that would have been nice taken more seriously when you're younger, but when it seems that so many others speak it already (ie on the interwebernets) there's just no incentive to learn another language, and it's a shame :/

 

[nath]

Yeah but they should want to know, christ anything of any worth came from England. Even bad things!

WE INVENTED TIME FFS!!

England, where history comes from!

Eddie Izzard über alles.

 

[throdgrain]

And We Invented Bacon As Well!!

 

[Dreamor]

The issue is for some parts of the UK, a lot of people cannot even begin to learn English. In fact a large percentage of England have British as there Second Language (or 3rd)

I see little to no point having people learn a second language when they cannot grasp English which, in some cases, should be there first language.

To be honest, I learned German and Spainish, I remember a tiny amount of both, enough to get me by. I use neither for work. As I've gotten older I feel I want to learn Japanese and have taken courses in that.

How you finding it Fuzzy?

 

[DaGaffer]

I use neither for work.

This is the nub of it. Its pretty rare to actually need a foreign language in the work environment. I remember working for a German company a few years back and the official working language for the whole company including in their German offices, was English. But its also more subtle than that; loads of countries get tons of English language TV and film with subtitles rather than dubbing. English is far more part of most foreigners' daily lives than foreign languages are for us. Which isn't to make an excuse for rude dicks who moan about foreigners not understanding English (even if you sometimes think it - which I freely admit I did when I was travelling on occasion).

 

[haarewin]

fuzzy-san to dreamor-san, nihongo wa dou desu ka? itsu kana o benkyou shimasu ka? kana ga totemo muzukashii desu ne. watashi wa kana ga yoku wakarimasu. kanji mo totemo muzakashii desu yo! demo, kanji wa omishiroi desu. watashi wa kanji o benkyou shimasu. 70(nanajuu) kanji o naraimashita. nihongo ressun wa totemo omoshiroi desu. ima, shigoto e ikimasu. dewa mata ne!

(trans: fuzzy and dreamer, how do you find japanese? when do you study kana? kana is quite difficult, isn't it? i understand all the kana. kanji is also very difficult. but, kanji is interesting. i'm currently studying kanji, and i've learned 70. i find japanese lessons really interesting. i have to go to work now. see you!)

i could type it out in kana & kanji but i dont know if you both can read it
i really love japanese, it's such a big change from english in that there are 3 different writing systems to learn as well as all the grammar and vocab.

... i'm such a geek.

 

[Wonk]

The issue is for some parts of the UK, a lot of people cannot even begin to learn English. In fact a large percentage of England have British as there Second Language (or 3rd)

I see little to no point having people learn a second language when they cannot grasp English which, in some cases, should be there first language.

To be honest, I learned German and Spainish, I remember a tiny amount of both, enough to get me by. I use neither for work. As I've gotten older I feel I want to learn Japanese and have taken courses in that.

How you finding it Fuzzy?

It's like that in most countries in europe though.

 

[throdgrain]

People who study Japanese are almost always geeks who like Nintendo.

And who own thier own chopsticks.

 

[TdC]

I own my own chop-sticks, but the girl at the Japanese take-away speaks better Dutch than I can so my grasp of the language is pish :/