Ed's new tactic

Raven

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The problem is a portion of the public services quite literally do fuck all, all day. Why should they still be employed? It's nothing personal against them but we can't just give them money for nothing. Private business has had to make cut backs, had pay freezes and in some cases pay cuts, why on earth should the public services be any different?

As for benefits, there is a minority of people who do fiddle the system. I would hope that genuine cases get the help they need but those not deserving it get nothing.
 

ford prefect

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As for benefits, there is a minority of people who do fiddle the system. I would hope that genuine cases get the help they need but those not deserving it get nothing.

I genuinely wish that was the case - the benefit reforms will ensure that simply won't be the case. Out of the 20 to 25% of people who will loose benefits during these reforms, the majority have a genuine claim to them. Disability charities are in an uproar about the reforms, and have prepared responses, but so far have largely been ignored. The main victims of these reforms will be those with severe mental health issues and learning disabilities, but a lot of people with physical disabilities will also loose out.
 

Ormorof

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frankly im astounded about any claims that it is easy to get benefits, when i was made redundant trying to get any money was like trying to bleed a stone took months to get anything, it got to the point where i had the option of spending every last penny i had (i was not due a payment for another week) on a train ticket to go to an interview, or be able to buy food for the rest of the week, i was told i could only get the travel expenses covered if i actually ended up getting the job so in the end i had to turn the interview down as i kinda like living.

regarding the NHS i have experienced incredible care and service in one hospital where the doctors and nurses were fantastic, i was seen quickly, diagnosed quickly and treated fast.

and then some absolutely atrocious care in two others, in one i was left in a corridor for 9 hours (after being admitted to emergency care by ambulance due to pain in my heart) with no food or water, when i was finally admitted to a ward, i was left for a further 4 hours with no food or water before being offered a cup of tea, at this point i had been awake since 8am, when i had breakfast and had eaten nothing since (i called the ambulance just before i was about to have lunch), in the middle of the night at around 2am a nurse comes over to me and says "im really sorry but we need your bed, you have to go home, call an ambulance if your condition changes" and i was practically thrown out of the hospital. (a friend picked me up in a taxi and helped me home as i could barely walk)

- i cant say if it was lack of care, staff or funding but some changes would be nice!

i have since left the UK and dont really regret it!
 

Gumbo

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There are a huge number of people receiving benefits for disability, who are perfectly able to be productive in some capacity. Because they limp, they get incapacity instead of jobseekers, and very well they do out of it thank you. Labour encouraged it to massage the unemployment figures.

Get the fuck out there and work. I worked for 2 years with a herniated disc in my back which could quite easily have got me lovely chunks of incapacity benefit, but my self esteem wouldn't let me. Remove the safety nets and let the fittest survive, and the not quite fit make the fucking effort.

It is not sustainable for those who can be arsed to work to continue to support an increasing number of those who can't be arsed ,forever. Do you really think, with all the wonderful advances in medicine, that there should be a higher proportion of people who are considered not well enough to work now, than at any time in the past?
 

Gumbo

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(Is that full of enough bullshit to really get the argument going?)
 

cHodAX

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There are a huge number of people receiving benefits for disability, who are perfectly able to be productive in some capacity. Because they limp, they get incapacity instead of jobseekers, and very well they do out of it thank you. Labour encouraged it to massage the unemployment figures.

Get the fuck out there and work. I worked for 2 years with a herniated disc in my back which could quite easily have got me lovely chunks of incapacity benefit, but my self esteem wouldn't let me. Remove the safety nets and let the fittest survive, and the not quite fit make the fucking effort.

It is not sustainable for those who can be arsed to work to continue to support an increasing number of those who can't be arsed ,forever. Do you really think, with all the wonderful advances in medicine, that there should be a higher proportion of people who are considered not well enough to work now, than at any time in the past?

It is never that black and white, I myself had 2 herniated discs (3 in total so far) and suffered so much nerve damage that I will always have pain down my left leg and in my lower back. Yes there are plenty that are blagging it but there are also people like myself for whom getting back to work was a real problem, fortunately I managed it but I will probably never have another pain free day in my life and will have to take painkillers to keep working until I drop.

I know where you are coming from and why you are angry, you have every right to be but always remember that the government have to judge these things on a case by case basis or risk discriminating again people who have legitimate injuries and cannot maintain fulltime permanent work.
 

ford prefect

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There are a huge number of people receiving benefits for disability, who are perfectly able to be productive in some capacity. Because they limp, they get incapacity instead of jobseekers, and very well they do out of it thank you. Labour encouraged it to massage the unemployment figures.

Get the fuck out there and work. I worked for 2 years with a herniated disc in my back which could quite easily have got me lovely chunks of incapacity benefit, but my self esteem wouldn't let me. Remove the safety nets and let the fittest survive, and the not quite fit make the fucking effort.

It is not sustainable for those who can be arsed to work to continue to support an increasing number of those who can't be arsed ,forever. Do you really think, with all the wonderful advances in medicine, that there should be a higher proportion of people who are considered not well enough to work now, than at any time in the past?

Faulty arguement there I am afraid. Your arguement applies to Incapacity Benefit perhaps, which is constantly reviewed anyway. The Personal Independance Payment reform will replace Disability Living Allowence which isn't means tested and has nothing to do with the ability to work. It is there to pay for the extra care needs and mobility costs for people with disabilities in order for them to be able to live independant lives, indeed these benefits often enable people with disabilities to work.
 

rynnor

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Due to training and university policies, they also left us with a dependence on foreign medical staff, which has been impossible to recover from ever since. Those are the simple facts.

We spend millions on training UK doctors and they bugger off abroad for a better lifestyle/more dosh - why the hell would we spend any more on it - hell we might as well eliminate it and sponsor the training of indian doctors.

frankly - we should consider ourselves lucky to live in a country where medical care is a phone call away and prescriptions are cheap (or free).

See this is the NHS attitude - we should all be pathetically gratefull for the crap service we receive despite that we are all paying for it :p

Medical care is a phonecall away? Once they used to actually come out to visit patients :p

Prescriptions are a ripoff in many cases - cheaper to buy the drugs off the market in most cases than pay via prescription.


Under the current proposals, the frontline nursing staff in real terms will have a 3% wage reduction in the next three years, with a34% reduction in training budgets. Recruitment will be reduced and staff will be expected to make up for the shortfall by working longer hours, and possibly by loosing a certain amount of annual leave.

My heart bleeds for them - they want above inflation rises during a recession when the countries broke? I know many people in the private sector who havent had any raise for the last few years.

Tom asked where money should come from and to be honest I don’t know. I don’t work for the treasury. It does strike me as odd however that the government is happy to waste billions on MoD for projects like Nimrod and upgrading Trident, or spending hundreds of millions on aircraft carriers with no aircraft to go on them, but I suppose that emphasises skewed priorities. I honestly don't begin to pretend to understand it.

These big projects safeguard thousands of UK jobs - all these people pay taxes that end up going into the NHS.
 

Wij

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All slightly going off-topic tbh but I'll bite on the disability benefits. I'm sure there's cause for concern amongst many genuine claimants but I know lots of people who have been on one kind of disability benefit or another for most of their lives who seem perfectly fine to me.

A bloke lives up the street from my dad who's been on benefit for 30 years or more with a bad back. When my dad had a load of huge paving slabs lying around he asked if he could have them and then lugged them all home himself in an afternoon. I couldn't have lifted them.

One anecdote is not evidence of a sensible policy I know but some cases need review.
 

Raven

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We haven't had across the board pay rises at my company in 3 years, I have had 2 individual rises (and getting a 3rd to be discussed today) due to performance and my roll in the company changing. People in the public sector expect them as a matter of course. It just can't happen.
 

Wij

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BBC News - Profile: Ed Balls

Now that Ed Balls is Shadow Chancellor we can only assume that the Labour Party's official policy is now, more than ever, that Gordon was right about everything :/
 

Aoami

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I know nothing about economics, but i've always wondered;

Why not cut income tax/VAT/duty to get people spending more money. People like spending money, people are happy so people spend more money, so in the long run the government takes in more money, surely?

inb4 someone calls me a cretin.
 

ECA

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Cutting tax/vat/duty does stimulate spending as it gives people more disposable income.

The problem is we have a massive structural deficit ( that means even if tax revenues go up, spending is linked to it and we're still in the shitter ).

Basically, we have a massive fucking debt to pay off, to the tune of £3000/tax payer ( thx gordon ) - cutting taxes basically means we take longer to pay it off.

It's like paying 12 monthly payments of £1000, or 24 monthly payments of £700 - which is cheaper in the long run ? Oh you have to give up sky TV, fags and booze to do it? roh noes!

Labour want to pay off it's debt while keeping the sky TV, fags, booze, BMW, 2 family holidays a year, brand label goods and a cleaner.

The conservatives are saying fuck, we're pretty boned here guys, we're going to have to sell the beamer, buy a second hand volvo, let the cleaner go, cancel sky, stop smoking, stop drinking and start buying asda own brand.

Ofc that isn't as much fun as the labour option, but it's a lot better in the long run.
 

Raven

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The spoilt kids (the Unions) don't like it though, all their friends have I-phones, they want I-phones too and some more pocket money! Screw mum and dad for saying they cant afford it!
 

ford prefect

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Basically, we have a massive fucking debt to pay off, to the tune of £3000/tax payer ( thx gordon ) - cutting taxes basically means we take longer to pay it off.

It's like paying 12 monthly payments of £1000, or 24 monthly payments of £700 - which is cheaper in the long run ? Oh you have to give up sky TV, fags and booze to do it? roh noes!

Labour want to pay off it's debt while keeping the sky TV, fags, booze, BMW, 2 family holidays a year, brand label goods and a cleaner.

The conservatives are saying fuck, we're pretty boned here guys, we're going to have to sell the beamer, buy a second hand volvo, let the cleaner go, cancel sky, stop smoking, stop drinking and start buying asda own brand.

Ofc that isn't as much fun as the labour option, but it's a lot better in the long run.

It isn't entirely Browns fault - its still largely the American mortgage issue and some very foolish risks by international banks. In fact the UK played a surprisingly small role in the recession. I agree, labour did spend irresponsibly and didn't monitor the banks as they should have.

The conservatives though, aren’t saying sell the beemer, get Asda Own brand and cancel sky. They are saying, lets break the NHS Infrastructure without taking time to look at it, lets stop supporting disabled people, lets charge students lots of money so that five years down the road we have lots of minimum wage road sweepers and lets stop repairing roads – in fact the list is endless. The guy who owns the beemer – I know I am one, is largely untouched.

The money needs to be found - and in time it will be, but where do these cuts end and at what cost to those who are already struggling to make ends meet?

Labours ideas are flawed – I agree there, but don’t be Blinkered about conservative policies either – which even in a recession are designed to tax poorer people to a greater ratio than the wealthy and forget the Liberals - they are playing no role at all in this government as far as I can see. They are just bums on seats at the moment, nothing more.
 

Wij

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As has been proved many times, increasing the taxes on the rich reduces revenue rather than increases it. They can happily afford to move abroad. In fact even the 50p tax band is having a negative effect on taxes, never mind the billionaires. Your ideaology might well say that the richest should pay more but in the real world you can't force them. Law of unintended consequences etc...

Noone is saying that the recession was all Labour's fault although like you say, the banks should have been better monitored. Labour's current stance though is that that somehow lets them off the hook. So they spent up to the hilt in the good times in a way that could only be justified if you expect a recession to never happen and then go OH NOES when one does happen. Recessions always happen and to say that noone could have predicted it (never mind the fact that many people did, precise timing notwithstanding) is either disingenuous or shows the kind of financial prudence of a toddler.

If I maxed out all my credit cards because I thought it reasonable to assume that 10% pay rises would continue forever and I'd never lose my job (the irony) then people would rightly assume I had absolutely no sense about money. Brown, Balls and Red Ed can rightly be concluded to be the same.
 

ford prefect

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As has been proved many times, increasing the taxes on the rich reduces revenue rather than increases it. They can happily afford to move abroad. In fact even the 50p tax band is having a negative effect on taxes, never mind the billionaires. Your ideaology might well say that the richest should pay more but in the real world you can't force them. Law of unintended consequences etc...

I agree, and I agree that the Labour solution is flawed and I am not asking for a repeat of the seventies where labour taxed the rich in many cases to the point of exile. What I am saying is that taxes should be shared fairly. Simple common sense tells us that a middle ground is necessary here. It is all very well taxing the poor, but when hardly any of them earn a degree, and they are looking for work - where do they fit in, in our service industry economy? We don't manufacture anything anymore, there are very few apprenticeships and the service and civil sector jobs will be filled by wealthier kids whith degree's in hospitality or some such nonsense. So the kids that won't go to Uni now, effectively get exceptionally low paid jobs or end up on unemployment benefits five to six years from now and large organizations recruit qualified staff from abroad - just like the NHS had to after the last conservative government.
 

Gumbo

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On the student fees thing. When I was Uni age, I couldn't afford to go. My Father was already supporting my sister through, and as grants were means tested, and he earned too much, there was no money for me. There wasn't the option of student loans.

Then in my working life, until the present system of tuition fees and student loans, I had to pay taxes, a certain proportion of which went to fund students going to University. So I couldn't afford to go, but have had to fund a load of others.

I have no problem at all with students having to pay for their own education, after all, they have to earn a half decent wage before they start paying it back, and the interest is negligible. A little off topic, but the student issue was mentioned above.
 

Gumbo

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And you know what, I think I'm agreeing with you on this point Ford. I don't have a Beemer, but we have a family estate, and I have my toy car as well. Our household income and expenditure, from two hard working people with a 3 year old daughter, puts us firmly in the middle income, middle class type of bracket. We have a smallish debt which is nicely manageable, from car purchases and associated costs of having a kid, we are renting so no mortgage at the moment.

You said
The guy who owns the beemer – I know I am one, is largely untouched.

Well thank fucking Christ. Maybe it is about time that we got away with it. That the benefit scrounging scum of this country had to suffer. That those who don't deserve disability benefits get them taken away. Radio 1 news were interviewing people who had been out of work for a long time yesterday. Where did they find them? In the fucking pub. My other half and I save up for a trip to the pub. We might make it out for a night once every 3 or 4 months because we can't afford to go more often. Where do they find the people who's rent, council tax, and income is given to them for doing nothing at 1 in the afternoon? In the pub.

Lets have the fuckers suffering.

Why should these people get something for nothing? Why should we allow people to receive something when they are now the 3rd generation of people in the same family who have never worked a day in their life?

Scrap the minimum wage tomorrow, and make them work for food vouchers. You mention potholes. In rural areas you used to have a fella, probably retired, who had a pile of the required materials outside the front of his house. When the parish council told him about a pothole, he filled his barrow and went and fixed it. Why can't Kevin and fucking Chardonnay, who've never worked, nor their parents before them, not lift their arses off their World of Leather corner settee, tear themselves away from Jeremy Kyle on their 50" plasma, and go and fix some potholes or they don't get the vouchers to feed themselves?

Fucks sake we need a sea change of attitude in this country, all that we are seeing is some baby steps towards it.

And don't get me started on the waste that has built up in council offices over the last few years, climate change and diversity officers? Puhleease.
 

throdgrain

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And you know what, I think I'm agreeing with you on this point Ford. I don't have a Beemer, but we have a family estate, and I have my toy car as well. Our household income and expenditure, from two hard working people with a 3 year old daughter, puts us firmly in the middle income, middle class type of bracket. We have a smallish debt which is nicely manageable, from car purchases and associated costs of having a kid, we are renting so no mortgage at the moment.

You said

Well thank fucking Christ. Maybe it is about time that we got away with it. That the benefit scrounging scum of this country had to suffer. That those who don't deserve disability benefits get them taken away. Radio 1 news were interviewing people who had been out of work for a long time yesterday. Where did they find them? In the fucking pub. My other half and I save up for a trip to the pub. We might make it out for a night once every 3 or 4 months because we can't afford to go more often. Where do they find the people who's rent, council tax, and income is given to them for doing nothing at 1 in the afternoon? In the pub.

Lets have the fuckers suffering.

Why should these people get something for nothing? Why should we allow people to receive something when they are now the 3rd generation of people in the same family who have never worked a day in their life?

Scrap the minimum wage tomorrow, and make them work for food vouchers. You mention potholes. In rural areas you used to have a fella, probably retired, who had a pile of the required materials outside the front of his house. When the parish council told him about a pothole, he filled his barrow and went and fixed it. Why can't Kevin and fucking Chardonnay, who've never worked, nor their parents before them, not lift their arses off their World of Leather corner settee, tear themselves away from Jeremy Kyle on their 50" plasma, and go and fix some potholes or they don't get the vouchers to feed themselves?

Fucks sake we need a sea change of attitude in this country, all that we are seeing is some baby steps towards it.

And don't get me started on the waste that has built up in council offices over the last few years, climate change and diversity officers? Puhleease.


Quite agree. I remember when the recession started, some twat on Radio 4 suggested that Macdonalds and KFC etc would be ok because people cant afford more expensive food, so they'll have to buy that.

What?? I left home at 7.30 am yesterday, and got back at 9.50 pm. And I'm skint.

I need to get on the dole I reckon ..
 

Raven

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You mention potholes. In rural areas you used to have a fella, probably retired, who had a pile of the required materials outside the front of his house. When the parish council told him about a pothole, he filled his barrow and went and fixed it.

When my Granddad retired he used to mow all the verges in the village and look after the trees, planting seasonal bulbs and whatnot, he did this for nothing, just to make the place a bit nicer. Since he got too old (he passed away a few years ago) we now get a 3 men in a wagon who come around and savage everything once in a while. I would like to get rid of those 3 people and their wagon and get local, out of work people to do it in return for food/gas/electricity/housing vouchers. It would save the country money and force people to take responsibility for their own lives instead of expecting the government to carry them.
I don't mind people getting dole money when they are actually looking for work, that's what it's there for but I can't stand parasites.
 

ECA

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Btw to those on the more labour side of things - how do you want to pay for the services you want? Keep borrowing money?

There is a limit to what we can afford, and labour in every single full year in power never did anything except borrow money.

If labour had balanced their budgets we wouldn't be in this situation now, labour put us massively in debt even before the sub prime collapse.

It's funny because in the UK I feel forced to vote conservative or lib dem, just because labour are so fiscally irresponsible, whereas in the US I'd be forced to vote democrat ( labour ) because the republicans ( conservatives ) are so financially irresponsible.
 

Raven

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Not to mention the Republicans are completely and utterly insane.
 

Delboy

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I agree, the NHS is far from perfect, but we no longer have 90% of people waiting 18 months for simple and often life saving operations, like we did at the end of the last conservative government.

During the end of John Majors' time, I recall joking to a former NHS Staff member about using mediums to contacts those people who were scheduled to have operations (They had been on waiting list for so long they passed on)
 

rynnor

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During the end of John Majors' time, I recall joking to a former NHS Staff member about using mediums to contacts those people who were scheduled to have operations (They had been on waiting list for so long they passed on)

Still happens today - my mum was still getting hospital appointments through when she'd been dead for months - its a massive beurocracy where little has changed in decades.

Edit: The massive increase in NHS funding under Labour achieved very little.
 

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