eBay and live8

[anattic]

Another twist in the tail - eBay (somewhat petulantly imho) suspending the accounts of 'protest' bidders:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/4095464.stm

 

[maxi]

Seems fair to me.

 

[`mongoose]

There is some utter BS being sprouted here so, I am gonna let you in on a few things....

1.) Most countries in Africa (the so called fourth world because of the level of it's debt) are so far in debt that their entire GNP won't service the interest of their loans let alone start repaying the debt they owe.

2.) Any country attempting to get aid now, has to submit to the will of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank (WB). Neither of these organisations are Financial Institutions but are extensions of European and (predominantly) US Foreign services. To get a loan you have to agree to restructure your economy and follow a 'western' business plan of capitalism. You also cannot trade with any country that is deemed to be an enemy of capitalism or western policies.

3.) All theories behind such policies are based on Rational Man Theory. This theory posits that you spend as little as possible on services. IF Rational Man were true people would buy the cheapest car, cheapest house, live in the cheapest area, buy the cheapest food. I know I am belabouring the CHEAP point but this theory doesn't even hold water in the west in a so-called capitialist economy - why the hell would it work when attached to people who come from economies based on barter rather than cash?

Now some of that might be a little out of date, I finished my studies a good few years ago but development and particularly Africa were areas I studied in depth and the Live8 ideas (Regardless of what you think of sir bob) is a laudable effort.

We and more importantly America, force duties upon all countries in the 'developing' world that constantly drive down the prices of products whilst pushing the price before duty further down ensuring that just to maintain the status quo these countries have to give us more goods for less.

Things you can do to help, without being a tree hugging pretenious twat.

Look out for fair trade logos. You might pay at most 5p more on that coffee but the Fair Trade organisation set a price with coffee and fruit producers and stick to it, so these guys can continue to make a fair price for their goods. Yes we pay a little more, but we do our bit without having to join amnesty international and endure those bleeding heart commercials.

Comic Relief is one of the better charities for doing good work. Instead of going into villages and doing stupid things like building houses that the people don't want and won't use, they put in sustainable low-tech quality of life improving features. They sponsor schools and health clinics, they don't go and do the whole throwing grain to the starving masses thing. They look to educate and prevent. This is what we need to support, not grouse about debt and people here dying. Yes people here need help too, but we as a country have a benefit system to help and multiple charities aimed at that.

All the time we're doing this our govenmental policies are systematically denying other weaker countries any chance of doing this.

90% of all aid that has been given to african countries is tied to conditions like You must spend X% of all this aid on products from company Y. Look at the sales of British Military firms to african countries, look at the armed forces equipment and you can see where most of that aid went. The British Government knew this when they gave the aid and knew that the countries would not be able to pay the debts off and still authorised the loans. Indebted labour on a national scale.

M
*n.b. slightly loony left tree hugging pretentious hippy twat and proud of it!*

 

[Doomy]

Those three sentences show that, no, you don't know what's going on. Live8 isn't about raising money, it isn't about pointing at Africans and going "look how fucked Africa is", its about raising awareness of some of the major causes of those problems, which are debt relief and fair trade; that's why its aimed at the G8.

My big concerns about Live8 are that message simply isn't getting across, and that the bit that is getting through is more about debt relief than fair trade. We can forgive the debt and that will help in the short term (but there are still big questions about the long-term implications for future borrowing), but only fair trade will get Africans out of the shit they're in over the long haul.

The other issue, that almost no-one dare talk about for fear of being classed as racist or crypto-imperialist, is that a lot of these countries are governed by criminals or are simply ungovernable. Africa has had nearly half a century to sort itself out since the colonial powers quit, and most people in Africa are massively worse off since then. The lefty response is 'legacy of colonialism', 'all our fault', 'abused Africa for 500 years' blah, blah. But if that's true, how come we don't see the same problems in all the other post-colonial countries? Can anyone honestly say people in places like Zimbabwe or Sierra Leone wouldn't be better off if we were still running them?

Debt demolition is all over the news so I do know whats going on and I hope others have paid attention aswell.. Fair trade too? I understand that too. I also know the whole not giving them money but enabling them to make the money to live with and feed themselves.

My point is, whos actually going for this? They could have made money on it. And despite not wanting to GIVE away money they sure as hell need something.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

You're an absolute fucking idiot.

No you are, for thinking that your opinion is the only one that could be right.
I will still manage to sleep soundly tonight.

 

[maxi]

no you are for thinking i think my opinion is the only one that's right

 

[yaruar]

Those three sentences show that, no, you don't know what's going on. Live8 isn't about raising money, it isn't about pointing at Africans and going "look how fucked Africa is", its about raising awareness of some of the major causes of those problems, which are debt relief and fair trade; that's why its aimed at the G8.

My big concerns about Live8 are that message simply isn't getting across, and that the bit that is getting through is more about debt relief than fair trade. We can forgive the debt and that will help in the short term (but there are still big questions about the long-term implications for future borrowing), but only fair trade will get Africans out of the shit they're in over the long haul.

The other issue, that almost no-one dare talk about for fear of being classed as racist or crypto-imperialist, is that a lot of these countries are governed by criminals or are simply ungovernable. Africa has had nearly half a century to sort itself out since the colonial powers quit, and most people in Africa are massively worse off since then. The lefty response is 'legacy of colonialism', 'all our fault', 'abused Africa for 500 years' blah, blah. But if that's true, how come we don't see the same problems in all the other post-colonial countries? Can anyone honestly say people in places like Zimbabwe or Sierra Leone wouldn't be better off if we were still running them?

Actually a lot of the problems are due to imperialism and colonialism and lots of other countries. The main problem in africa was the artificial creation of countries based around imperial desires (mainly france and england in africa) which led to artifically created boundries which had no bearing on the socio-political model of tribalism which was there before. As we have seen in Rowanda and other countries, forcing enemy tribes to live within an artificially created nation state just leads to bloodshed (and to show it's not just africs, look at Yugoslavia, Iraq or India (which partitioned into India and Pakistan based around Religion) to see the bloodshed and dissaray caused by the forcing of artificial nation states upon countries.

 

[DaGaffer]

Actually a lot of the problems are due to imperialism and colonialism and lots of other countries. The main problem in africa was the artificial creation of countries based around imperial desires (mainly france and england in africa) which led to artifically created boundries which had no bearing on the socio-political model of tribalism which was there before. As we have seen in Rowanda and other countries, forcing enemy tribes to live within an artificially created nation state just leads to bloodshed (and to show it's not just africs, look at Yugoslavia, Iraq or India (which partitioned into India and Pakistan based around Religion) to see the bloodshed and dissaray caused by the forcing of artificial nation states upon countries.

See, I don't buy that argument; I live in a country that is an ethnic mix of 'tribes' with a long-standing emnity, but I don't feel the need to get my machete out and head up the A1 and start chopping up Scotsmen. Its too glib to just go, "ah, its the Colonials' fault" and wring our hands and feel guilty. Nation states may have been formed for the convienience of colonial powers (or partioned in the mistaken belief that it would save lives in a post-colonial world), but it kind of proves the point doesn't it? Colonial power in place, people don't chop each other up, Colonial power leaves, it's machete time.

Of course, its nice and easy to blame 'Dead White Men' for all of Africa's problems, but it convieniently ignores thousands of years of Africans preying on each other; the colonial period represented a brief hiatus in the cycle of tribal violence. None of this is to say the likes of Cecil Rhodes or the slavers of the triangular trade were anything but total bastards, but the strong preying on the weak has always been the story in Africa, and Colonialism is a convienient scapegoat for all of Africa's ills, compounded by our own sense of guilt, which despots all over Africa have used mercilessly (witness Mugabe's rants about the 'British Empire', like it still a living, breathing bogeyman for Africans).

 

[Chilly]

good points there, but the colonials are still IN scotland so they keep the peace (ish) there

 

[nath]

Well someone's gotta keep the bloody savages in check

 

[Uncle Sick]

See, I don't buy that argument; I live in a country that is an ethnic mix of 'tribes' with a long-standing emnity, but I don't feel the need to get my machete out and head up the A1 and start chopping up Scotsmen.

Urm... Northern Ireland anyone?

 

[DaGaffer]

Urm... Northern Ireland anyone?

I'm not from Northern Ireland. My point stands. And just like in Africa, its another place where its too easy to blame the British for past Imperial misdeeds and not take responsibility for whats going on now, not 100 years ago. To (massively) oversimplify, if the British hadn't have partioned Ireland when they left, there would have been a civil war, with the Protestants in the IRA role.

And are you saying the 'armed struggle' is somehow justified in modern-day Northern Ireland?

 

[`mongoose]

To (massively) oversimplify, if the British hadn't have partioned Ireland when they left, there would have been a civil war, with the Protestants in the IRA role.

And are you saying the 'armed struggle' is somehow justified in modern-day Northern Ireland?

This would be the protestants living on Irish land that they were given when the English invaded would it?

Whilst I agree to some extent with your comments re: tribalism in Africa, Northern Ireland is an entirely different situation. I can only compare the situation in Ireland to Israel as they are both states created on land taken from indigenous peoples.

This, in no way, justifies the killing of innocent people by terrorists but it's far too simple to state 'without partition there would be civil war' That Civil war would to some extent be caused, fermented and ensured by policies and actions of the British Government over the last 75 years.

M

 

[Tom]

To be perfectly honest, if groups of people go around killing eachother, blame those people - not governments. That includes N.Ireland.

Past misdeeds are not an excuse to be a murdering twat.

 

[Chilly]

To be perfectly honest, if groups of people go around killing eachother, blame those people - not governments. That includes N.Ireland.

Past misdeeds are not an excuse to be a murdering twat.

and if you were being brought up by people who thought it was ok to murder and bomb and thought it was perfectly natural, you wouldn't give two seconds thought to busting a cap in some home bwoys ass! Neither (assuming you aint a veggie) do you think before you eat a nice steak and think "oahahhahah bwaha poor cow poor poor cow" no, no you dont, you think "fuckin bonus, tastiest steak i've had all day!" (well I do).

What i'm saying is what people think is nearly entirely governed by their peers and elders - and in the case of the (insert random terrorist group here) its just that the people involved have been brought up - possibly even trained to be like that.

 

[DaGaffer]

This would be the protestants living on Irish land that they were given when the English invaded would it?

Y'see, that's oversimplifying. Those people have been there for more than 300 years (in fact, the first 'English' settlements go back much further). I don't see anyone clamouring to kick the white Americans out of their country, or the Australians out of theirs. Also bear in mind there was no such thing as a 'United Ireland' when they arrived.

Whilst I agree to some extent with your comments re: tribalism in Africa, Northern Ireland is an entirely different situation. I can only compare the situation in Ireland to Israel as they are both states created on land taken from indigenous peoples.

The Irish and Palestinian situations are nothing like each other. See above, about 'land taken from indigenous peoples'. At what point do people become indigenous? A generation? 50 years? 100? 300? 1000? The other difference is that unlike in Isreal, the Irish had an alternative (the South) and while after partition catholics were treated like second-class citizens in practice, they weren't in law. The reasons for 'the struggle' went away a hell of a long time ago. The reasons for the Intifada are real and current.

This, in no way, justifies the killing of innocent people by terrorists but it's far too simple to state 'without partition there would be civil war' That Civil war would to some extent be caused, fermented and ensured by policies and actions of the British Government over the last 75 years.

As it turned out, Partition led to civil war anyway (in 1922). At the time the British partioned, they had a choice; leave the Protestants to their fate and watch the new republic go up like a powder keg (and it did anyway), or give them the Six Counties. It was pretty much no-win from that point of view, but I certainly couldn't say it was the wrong decision the British took. Expecting the protestant north to simply get on the boats back to Britain after 300 plus years was never a realistic proposition, and neither was expecting the industrial, protestant north to be subserviant to a Catholic, agrarian government in Dublin. It just wasn't going to happen.

 

[throdgrain]

I dont think we had that many Imperial mis-deeds. I think in the long run a lot of countries benefitted from being part of the empire.



/hides

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Typical lefty communist viewpoint from throd, fuck off HIPPY.

 

[throdgrain]

eek sorry

 

[`mongoose]

Y'see, that's oversimplifying. Those people have been there for more than 300 years (in fact, the first 'English' settlements go back much further). I don't see anyone clamouring to kick the white Americans out of their country, or the Australians out of theirs. Also bear in mind there was no such thing as a 'United Ireland' when they arrived.

I fail to see how stating that Irish landowners were dispossessed and their land was given to English/Scottish Nobles as a reward for supporting the monarchy and is oversimplifying. It's actually what happened. Whilst the situation has been compounded in recent years, it's irrelevent whether we're talking about a nation or a tribe or a clan. If you take land away and leave the person who owned it alive, the chances are they are going to want to return to it at some point and kick you off it

Secondly the reason no-one's clamouring to kick the Americans out is that there's not many people left to do the clamouring!

The Irish and Palestinian situations are nothing like each other. See above, about 'land taken from indigenous peoples'. At what point do people become indigenous? A generation? 50 years? 100? 300? 1000? The other difference is that unlike in Isreal, the Irish had an alternative (the South) and while after partition catholics were treated like second-class citizens in practice, they weren't in law. The reasons for 'the struggle' went away a hell of a long time ago. The reasons for the Intifada are real and current.

Other than the fact that we took a rake of Jewish people and stuck them down on Prime land in Palenstine, dispossessing the native population at that time? Yeah there's no difference

What do you think will happen in Israel in 100 years? 200? 300? There might be people in Israel who were born there but that doesn't mean diddly squat to the fella whose grandfather's grandfather owned the land that was taken from them. The treatment of Palestine civilians now by the israeli forces is only creating more insurgents for use and explotation by the infitada. With every new injustice they are creating a body of angry young men and women who will see this as a war.

Whilst military response in Ireland was limited in comparison to Beruit and we haven't seen any shanty towns and tanks running people over, the recent numbers of released wrongly convicted 'terrorists' is an example of how the British Government and police made tragic errors of judgement and miscarriages of justice.

As it turned out, Partition led to civil war anyway (in 1922). At the time the British partioned, they had a choice; leave the Protestants to their fate and watch the new republic go up like a powder keg (and it did anyway), or give them the Six Counties. It was pretty much no-win from that point of view, but I certainly couldn't say it was the wrong decision the British took. Expecting the protestant north to simply get on the boats back to Britain after 300 plus years was never a realistic proposition, and neither was expecting the industrial, protestant north to be subserviant to a Catholic, agrarian government in Dublin. It just wasn't going to happen.

Agreed here - it was always going to happen but if we weren't there 300 years ago then the chances are the Protestant North wouldn't have a) been protestant or b) been industrialised. Whilst 300 years later those families in Northern Ireland had created their own identity and hold on the land, it is still the land and the loss of it that formed the crux of the troubles that followed. Admittedly it was compounded by the treatment of Catholics as second class citizens but then they had hardly been treated with the utmost of respect in the 300 years before that either.

I don't think that we should do the whole sack cloth and personal flagellation thing just yet, I do think that we should own up to our fair share of mistakes. I fail to see how a British government can take a moral high ground whilst it continually supports governements instigating similar opressions on other populations around the globe.

We can sit here and say without imperialism the recent ethnic cleansing events in Africa would have happened anyway etc etc but the fact of the matter is that it's hypothetical. We did go in, we did drain some of these lands of resources coal, diamonds, gold, oil and we are to blame for stunting their growth by funding military regimes rather than promoting democracy and development

M

 

[DaGaffer]

I fail to see how stating that Irish landowners were dispossessed and their land was given to English/Scottish Nobles as a reward for supporting the monarchy and is oversimplifying. It's actually what happened. Whilst the situation has been compounded in recent years, it's irrelevent whether we're talking about a nation or a tribe or a clan. If you take land away and leave the person who owned it alive, the chances are they are going to want to return to it at some point and kick you off it

Secondly the reason no-one's clamouring to kick the Americans out is that there's not many people left to do the clamouring!

That's fine, but we're not talking about English/Scottish nobles now are we? We're talking about ordinary people who've been there for generations. I'm pretty damn sure there aren't many Irish people who could show their great-granddad ten times removed owned the land the Shankhill road's built on, do you? Like I said, its all about historical perspective.

As for America, true enough, but surely the irony isn't lost on you given where most of the IRA's support comes from?

Other than the fact that we took a rake of Jewish people and stuck them down on Prime land in Palenstine, dispossessing the native population at that time? Yeah there's no difference

'We' did nothing of the sort. Although there had been an increasing Zionist settlment programme before WWII (where Jews emigrated to Palestine and bought land from the locals), when the Jews started arriving after the war, the Brits weren't helping, they were trying to enforce the mandate and became stuck in the middle; British troops were the prime terrorist target for Jewish terrorists. in the end we left and let them get on with it. But you have to look at the historical context; we'd only been running the Palestinian mandate since the end of WWI, we were skint, war-weary and the Holocaust had only been revealed to the world a couple of years before. There was a strong groundswell of world opinion in favour of giving the jews a homeland and a reluctance to mess with people who'd been through Auschwitz. Subsequent events were predictable, unfortunately.

What do you think will happen in Israel in 100 years? 200? 300? There might be people in Israel who were born there but that doesn't mean diddly squat to the fella whose grandfather's grandfather owned the land that was taken from them. The treatment of Palestine civilians now by the israeli forces is only creating more insurgents for use and explotation by the infitada. With every new injustice they are creating a body of angry young men and women who will see this as a war.

I don't disagree that the Intifada is doing exactly what you say; but you know what? They need to get over it. The Palestine of 1947 is gone and it isn't coming back. The sensible response is to cut your losses and get a life. This is my whole point; ethnic wars over ancient land rights are stupid, the people who fight them are stupid, the people who support them with donations to 'the cause' are stupid, nationalistic nostalgia for lands that never were and can never be again is stupid.

Whilst military response in Ireland was limited in comparison to Beruit and we haven't seen any shanty towns and tanks running people over, the recent numbers of released wrongly convicted 'terrorists' is an example of how the British Government and police made tragic errors of judgement and miscarriages of justice.

Don't disagree.

Agreed here - it was always going to happen but if we weren't there 300 years ago then the chances are the Protestant North wouldn't have a) been protestant or b) been industrialised. Whilst 300 years later those families in Northern Ireland had created their own identity and hold on the land, it is still the land and the loss of it that formed the crux of the troubles that followed. Admittedly it was compounded by the treatment of Catholics as second class citizens but then they had hardly been treated with the utmost of respect in the 300 years before that either.

See my point above about stupidity

I don't think that we should do the whole sack cloth and personal flagellation thing just yet, I do think that we should own up to our fair share of mistakes. I fail to see how a British government can take a moral high ground whilst it continually supports governements instigating similar opressions on other populations around the globe.

By and large I think we do own up to our mistakes. Sometimes rather too much. The big problem is we apply modern value judgements to the behaviour of people who weren't really very much like us, in a political and social environment completely alien to our own. What's the phrase? "The past is a different country".

We can sit here and say without imperialism the recent ethnic cleansing events in Africa would have happened anyway etc etc but the fact of the matter is that it's hypothetical. We did go in, we did drain some of these lands of resources coal, diamonds, gold, oil and we are to blame for stunting their growth by funding military regimes rather than promoting democracy and development

Actually I didn't say that, I said with imperialism, they wouldn't have happened. And see my point above, we can't really beat ourselves up for the motivations of people who exploited the resources of lands, which, by their reckoning, weren't being used.

You're last point about the evil of funding military regimes etc. is absolutely spot on; but only since 1989. Before that, we lived in a different world, with different rules.

 

[Tom]

and if you were being brought up by people who thought it was ok to murder and bomb and thought it was perfectly natural

I was raised in a fairly racist environment, where most people's idea of living was to work, get pissed, and go on holiday to Blackpool

Didn't stop me from not sharing the same views and getting the fuck out of there, and not being racist.


I don't care how you're raised, there are basic moral values which should surpass any teachings - respecting life and property being one of them. Anybody who doesn't possess the ability to understand and respect those morals IMO deserves everything they get.

 

[Ormorof]

I don't disagree that the Intifada is doing exactly what you say; but you know what? They need to get over it. The Palestine of 1947 is gone and it isn't coming back. The sensible response is to cut your losses and get a life. This is my whole point; ethnic wars over ancient land rights are stupid, the people who fight them are stupid, the people who support them with donations to 'the cause' are stupid, nationalistic nostalgia for lands that never were and can never be again is stupid.

these people arent stupid though, they are fanatic

which usually involves leaving intelligence and common sense on the side, however its very easy sitting here chatting about it and calling them stupid after watching their mothers, sisters, brothers etc being shot to pieces by israeli troops out for "revenge" from the last nutter who blew himself up, its kinda understandable in those kind of conditions that common sense is not, well, a common trait

 

[maxi]

I dont think anyone in their right mind would lay the blame entirely on past coloniaism. It IS a factor though but they also have Corrupt Goverment, Western Business exploitation, it's not about a country taking the blame and sorting it out, it's about a bunch of countries helping sort it out.

 

[DaGaffer]

these people arent stupid though, they are fanatic

which usually involves leaving intelligence and common sense on the side, however its very easy sitting here chatting about it and calling them stupid after watching their mothers, sisters, brothers etc being shot to pieces by israeli troops out for "revenge" from the last nutter who blew himself up, its kinda understandable in those kind of conditions that common sense is not, well, a common trait

And if they'd got their mothers, sisters and brothers the fuck out of there...

You're right, its easy for me to sit here pontificating, and I know that lots of people are stuck there, but I also know (because I've met them - I was at Uni with loads of them) Palestinians who are wealthy enough to get their families away from that hellhole but they don't because of this ludicrous determination to get their 'homeland' back. Maybe its a mindset thing, but if it was a choice between family or flag, family gets my vote every time.

 

[maxi]

I don't care how you're raised, there are basic moral values which should surpass any teachings - respecting life and property being one of them. Anybody who doesn't possess the ability to understand and respect those morals IMO deserves everything they get.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Do you think 'basic moral values' appear from no where? Saying that, I don't agree with that we are moulded entirely by our peers and elders, they's big part but it isn't that simple.

The rest, just doesn't make sense at all to me, of course someone SHOULD expect to be treated as they treat other people, that's if they live by the same moral values as you....but if they did, they'd already have this 'respect of life and property'. People have different ideas of right and wrong.

 

[`mongoose]

As for America, true enough, but surely the irony isn't lost on you given where most of the IRA's support comes from?

Not in the slightest :/ Nothing worse then ex-pats or neverbeenpats if you know what I mean

There was a strong groundswell of world opinion in favour of giving the jews a homeland and a reluctance to mess with people who'd been through Auschwitz. Subsequent events were predictable, unfortunately.

Entirely - agreed with your points re: England pulling out, do think we should have thought through the consequences more thoroughly

I don't disagree that the Intifada is doing exactly what you say; but you know what? They need to get over it. The Palestine of 1947 is gone and it isn't coming back. The sensible response is to cut your losses and get a life. This is my whole point; ethnic wars over ancient land rights are stupid, the people who fight them are stupid, the people who support them with donations to 'the cause' are stupid, nationalistic nostalgia for lands that never were and can never be again is stupid.

I agree that they're stupid, unfortunately what you and I think doesn't correspond with what the current population of these countries think. I must admit if someone came over to England and forced me out of my home, placed me in jail or beat me, my father, siblings. I'm not sure I'd be too inclined to just 'let the past be' and move on either. For some of these people it's their parents or grandparents who will still be alive that's keeping that link with the past very much alive.

By and large I think we do own up to our mistakes. Sometimes rather too much. The big problem is we apply modern value judgements to the behaviour of people who weren't really very much like us, in a political and social environment completely alien to our own. What's the phrase? "The past is a different country".

I used to have a ton of quotes on the importance of not repeating the mistakes of history

Doing it was bad, not learning from it is stupid

Repeating it in the form of debt was imo criminal. This was my original argument and still is

Actually I didn't say that, I said with imperialism, they wouldn't have happened. And see my point above, we can't really beat ourselves up for the motivations of people who exploited the resources of lands, which, by their reckoning, weren't being used.

You're last point about the evil of funding military regimes etc. is absolutely spot on; but only since 1989. Before that, we lived in a different world, with different rules.

The problem is, Imperialism has to end somewhere. When it does end the logical consequence is fragmentation, leading to conflict leading to... well annexation and expansion I guess. Ever get the feeling this has happened before?

Some Development specialists actually now claim that the Industrial Revolutions in Western Europe would not have succeeded as quickly were it not for the vast resources harvested from the African continent. They also posit that current developing countries won't be able to develop as quickly as they don't have the weaker nations or the political freedom to exploit those weaker countries in modern times

As for pre 1989, the world might well have been different but the actions taken by some countries were and are still reprehensible. At the end of the day - irrespective of world politics, it was still innocent people who died in miserable conditions as a result.

Anyways - off to hug a tree

M

 

[Tom]

This doesn't make any sense to me. Do you think 'basic moral values' appear from no where?

Yes, I think the most basic (don't kill your species, don't kill children) are a human trait, survival of the species kind of stuff. Thats my opinion.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Can we edit the thread title so it contains: "Warning: Overly text heavy." please?

 

[Turamber]

And it's worth remembering that the English settled a lot of Protestants in Ireland in the 17th century (a long, long time ago) because of repeated attempts by the European Catholic powers (Spain & France mostly) to invade England through it's Catholic neighbour. Nobody disputes that the situation in Ireland is bad, and has been atrocious in recent years -- but the roots of it can not just be laid at the door of the English.

Rather it should be blamed on bigots and zealots who put nationalism and religious hatred ahead of all else, including common sense.