East London Raid looks like a bad tipoff?

[rynnor]

They are still searching for the supposed device - over 250 police were involved in the original raid and one guy was shot but no-ones admitting to shooting him.

If it had been the guys brother who shot him I imagine they would have said it by now - so all in all this is looking like a very expensive waste of time that further damages relations with the community.

More good intelligence brought to you by the people who gave the 45 minute warning on Saddam's WOMD...

 

[throdgrain]

I really hope thats not the case But seeing as how most of our police force couldnt find thier own arse with both hands, it could be true ...

 

[Damini]

The government bought you that warning, not MI5. And intelligence is intelligence - if you personally phoned up and said "I've just seen a cyanide bomb which is primed and ready to go" wouldn't you be screaming blue murder if nobody went to investigate it? And that's just being an anonymous voice at the end of the phone. Here was someone they viewed as a mole, and who actually drew diagrams of what it looked like - fair play to them for barging in there. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

They can't give a public statement taking or denying responsibility until it's been investigated left right and centre, especially after the tube shooting. What you should be bitching about is the fact that when they thought they were investigating a weapon that has the capacity to kill hundreds of people, they had to sit outside and twiddle their thumbs whilst the Did You Shoot A Man brigade moved in.

 

[rynnor]

I really hope thats not the case But seeing as how most of our police force couldnt find thier own arse with both hands, it could be true ...

Well the shooting bit may well turn out to have been down to a policeman with an itchy trigger finger but the raid itself was based on intelligence from MI5 - the problem with MI5 is thats its a Civil service institution so generally not very accountable and then also gets to hide behind secrecy so doubly un-accountable - thus we have an intelligence agency which would embarass a third world country...

 

[rynnor]

The government bought you that warning, not MI5.

I'm not sure what you mean here - the goverment is a bunch of MP's - unless Tony Blair spotted em whilst he was hanging out in Forest Gate then this tipoff came via MI5 who are responsible for internal security?

 

[Damini]

How can you really level accountability at an institution that relies on rumour, subterfuge, spying and counter subterfuge? This rumour you heard... well, it turns out that this spy you interviewed was a liar! I know, it's hard to believe, and everyone here at MI5 is very shocked that anyone would obscure truth in such a fashion, but since you acted on this info I'm afraid we're going to have to give you a disciplinary with Marge from human resources, who also wants to bring up with you some missing biros and the fact you regularly take three minutes extra for lunch.

I'm not sure what you mean here - the goverment is a bunch of MP's - unless Tony Blair spotted em whilst he was hanging out in Forest Gate then this tipoff came via MI5 who are responsible for internal security?

The government bought you the warning - it's not like MI5 ran around London handing out flyers warning the world about Saddam. They gathered intelligence as requested by Madame Blair, then the government asked them to add some tittys, explosions and perhaps some glitter, and then the government had the report laminated and pinned to the global fridge. It's shameful that this embellishment was allowed to pass, but there you go.

 

[rynnor]

How can you really level accountability at an institution that relies on rumour, subterfuge, spying and counter subterfuge? This rumour you heard... well, it turns out that this spy you interviewed was a liar! I know, it's hard to believe, and everyone here at MI5 is very shocked that anyone would obscure truth in such a fashion, but since you acted on this info I'm afraid we're going to have to give you a disciplinary with Marge from human resources, who also wants to bring up with you some missing biros and the fact you regularly take three minutes extra for lunch.

Its not an easy job but I happen to believe that the people of this country deserve an intelligence agency that can pick up on people like those who organised the 7/7 bombings who were already on their books...

Its easy to make excuses for MI5 but they already do that for themselves very well - if they can hide behind excuses how will they ever improve?

In this case you would assume that they had surveillance on these folks and were tapping their phones before steaming in - its a golden rule that you should never proceed based on a single source.

 

[TdC]

what the heck? do I have to turn on the telly?

 

[old.Tohtori]

So...

*ponders*

If i dial up the area code for england, or some other thing like that, ask to speak to scotland yard and say i'm running around london, wearing a gray(ish)suit, with a cyanide bomb up my arse, would they check every cavity of every wanker with a suit? *grin*

 

[Raven]

they would probably ask some left wing think tank what the definition of a gray suit is.

 

[Escape]

what the heck? do I have to turn on the telly?

It's about this.



"Informers" are being paid silly amounts of money (£50k upfront and £X000 a month) to "infiltrate" communities. Alot of them are approached out of the blue by the M15 and given the task with no obligations. If you're offered £50k for anything you may or may not hear, will you take it?

The result is a network of spies who aren't "connected" and feed useless information back to the MI5. Possibly what happend in this "tip off".


Though the police have said they were monitoring communications from the suspects and were convinced something was about to happen. In these circumstances it's better to be safe than sorry... but if a police officer fired the bullet(which is the most likely case) they should just come clean now and retain some support.

 

[Damini]

Its not an easy job but I happen to believe that the people of this country deserve an intelligence agency that can pick up on people like those who organised the 7/7 bombings who were already on their books...

Its easy to make excuses for MI5 but they already do that for themselves very well - if they can hide behind excuses how will they ever improve?

In this case you would assume that they had surveillance on these folks and were tapping their phones before steaming in - its a golden rule that you should never proceed based on a single source.

Where did this golden rule appear from? When that single source states that hundreds of lives could be at risk, what right do you have to procrastinate? I'm not making excuses for MI5, I just don't see the big problem with it.

Do you honestly believe that MI5 sit there thinking "Those attempted bombers got away... phew... that's five less forms to fill in". I find it inconcievable that such an event wouldn't be enough of an internal mechanism for change that you'd need to bring in formal wrist slappers. The scariest thing that could happen in my opinion is having an external body set up to monitor MI5. Who would it be made up from? MPs? People elected by MPs? Another god forsaken QUANGO? We all know how bitchslapped the BBC got for daring to report some ugly truths, so what would happen in future if Labour needed a scapegoat? "Whoops, that whole bloody Iraq war thing where loads of people died... turns out that was Nevil the Spy's fault. It was just a misunderstanding. When he wrote "40 minutes to WMD" he actually meant... erm... that Saddam has a prostate problem and it takes him forty minutes to wee. So we're completely absolved of blame. And Nevil commited suicide, so you can't ask him about it. We found him dead in a park. Over dosed on a multi vitamin, and bled to death from a self inflicted paper cut. P.S. Vote Labour."

If not MPs, or chosen by MPs, then who? Do you take trained spys off the job to set in judgement of their ex fellow spys? Do you take civil servants and train them up to have the same amount of knowledge as MI5, and be privy to secrets of national importance purely so they can tut or nod accordingly? It's just a scary situation to get into. I'm not saying that they should be totally loose cannon, but I dread to think of what tighter Labour reins, more redtape, or wheels clogged with even more beurocracy would do for national security.

 

[rynnor]

Where did this golden rule appear from? When that single source states that hundreds of lives could be at risk, what right do you have to procrastinate? I'm not making excuses for MI5, I just don't see the big problem with it.

Do you seriously believe they stage a raid this big based on one report? if they did there would be a dozen like it every day - its not hard to find militants who talk big - there would have been systematic surveillance which makes it all the harder to see how they could end up empty handed...

As to a monitor for MI5 - yes I believe thats what is required - no need to staff it with MP's etc - there are Independant Security experts who could ensure good practice and that improvements are made - whats the alternative? Throw your hands up in the air and say "Oh well, they tried"??

 

[rynnor]

Do you take civil servants and train them up to have the same amount of knowledge as MI5?

MI5 are part of the civil service - thats a big part of the problem - it might be tolerable for the civil service to screw up your passport renewal or your child tax credits but when they screw up on intelligence our fellow citizens die.

 

[Bodhi]

Do you seriously believe they stage a raid this big based on one report? if they did there would be a dozen like it every day - its not hard to find militants who talk big - there would have been systematic surveillance which makes it all the harder to see how they could end up empty handed...

As to a monitor for MI5 - yes I believe thats what is required - no need to staff it with MP's etc - there are Independant Security experts who could ensure good practice and that improvements are made - whats the alternative? Throw your hands up in the air and say "Oh well, they tried"??

Mate that's a fucking brilliant idea! Let's take an organisation that relies on swift action and tie their hands up so they can't do anything without Big Brother saying yes first!

 

[Damini]

Mate that's a fucking brilliant idea! Let's take an organisation that relies on swift action and tie their hands up so they can't do anything without Big Brother saying yes first!

Heh. Precisely.

There will be mistakes in intelligence, because it is just that, intelligence, not knowledge. Yes, people will die from these errors. Why does everything these days need some exterior force to put it to rights? Why can't people be assumed to learn from their own mistakes?

And one report from someone they believe to be a credible witness, perhaps whose other reports had been reliable, who states that the matter is urgent, that the bomb is primed and ready to go, who is able to draw a visual representation of the bomb (big difference from someone "talking big" and showing them an actual bomb), able to name people who were possibly already known to the system... Yeah, right now I do believe that one report would be enough to send in a raid.

 

[rynnor]

Mate that's a fucking brilliant idea! Let's take an organisation that relies on swift action and tie their hands up so they can't do anything without Big Brother saying yes first!

I dont know where you got your idea's about MI5 from but 99% of its job is sifting through reams of intelligence - they dont just rush about reacting to stuff except in poor fiction - I'm not talking about a body to refer to on all day to day issues but to reform the processes they use - 7/7 was down to systemic failures of processes designed to protect us all.

 

[rynnor]

Why can't people be assumed to learn from their own mistakes?

Because its the civil service - no-one is ever held responsible - they produce documents hundreds of pages thick on why things went wrong and then continue on their way.

 

[rynnor]

And one report from someone they believe to be a credible witness, perhaps whose other reports had been reliable, who states that the matter is urgent, that the bomb is primed and ready to go, who is able to draw a visual representation of the bomb (big difference from someone "talking big" and showing them an actual bomb), able to name people who were possibly already known to the system...

You make the intelligence sound so good and yet here we are with no results - that kinda proves that the intelligence was no bloody good after all which begs the question why they figured it was good?

By now there are thousands of dis-contented muslims or even just ones who have flown to Pakistan on their books so just having a random paid informant also see that they are dis-contented is not exactly news - was the picture he drew a big circle with a trailing fuse by any chance...

 

[Damini]

How does it prove yet that the information was no good? How do you know there are no results? If there never was a bomb, if these people were not involved at all, then maybe that information was totally duff, but it's still too early to say. The bomb may have been moved out early, the plan could have already been put into action and then aborted following the publicity, they could have grown nervous/morally unsure about the plan and abandoned it, they could have grown worried about its stability and moved it out to be repaired, too many if's to say yet that it was bad info. All things lay prey to random events and interventions. It could have been deliberately bad info put out there to flush out the leak, which is in itself is informative. I'm not above finger pointing and demanding heads roll, it's one of my favourite past times, I just don't see the need to do it now.

 

[yaruar]

Heh. Precisely.

There will be mistakes in intelligence, because it is just that, intelligence, not knowledge. Yes, people will die from these errors. Why does everything these days need some exterior force to put it to rights? Why can't people be assumed to learn from their own mistakes?

And one report from someone they believe to be a credible witness, perhaps whose other reports had been reliable, who states that the matter is urgent, that the bomb is primed and ready to go, who is able to draw a visual representation of the bomb (big difference from someone "talking big" and showing them an actual bomb), able to name people who were possibly already known to the system... Yeah, right now I do believe that one report would be enough to send in a raid.

The secret service has to be accountable to someone and has to be liable for their cockups. The alternative is quite scary indeed.
What happens in the secret service decided that it is in the countries best interrest to start assasinating people? Extreme example, but also the secret service needs to operate within the bounds of national and international law (not that they actually do when it comes to things like bugging foreign embassies ) and that alone means that they need to have a body independant of them assesing their actions.

 

[Damini]

Of course they have to accountable within the confines of international and national law, within the Geneva convention, within the scarily broad wide spectrum of things filed under T for new Terrorism laws, but to have every single mistake, or perceived mistake, lorded over by some external Quango to pass verdict on them is a different affair. What's been discussed here isn't violations of law, but errors in judgement calls.

 

[Tom]

I dont know where you got your idea's about MI5 from but 99% of its job is sifting through reams of intelligence - they dont just rush about reacting to stuff except in poor fiction - I'm not talking about a body to refer to on all day to day issues but to reform the processes they use - 7/7 was down to systemic failures of processes designed to protect us all.

What? I thought it was down to 4 idiots blowing themselves up.

I remember similar comments after the Hungerford massacre, and also Dunblane. You can't catch everyone.

 

[Chilly]

I tend to agree with Lou on the external monitoring stuff, it would be better to increase their staff and internal processes and set up internal quality control standards which minimise impact on performance of analysis of data, as opposed to some bunch of elected ***** who dont really give a shit about anything apart from the next election.

 

[Tilda]

I dont know where you got your idea's about MI5 from

Where do you get your ideas about MI5 from?
What if, it emerged that there was a person, working for MI5, who told them 5 days before the 7/7 bombings that there was going to be a bombing. Apparently they were ignored, don't you think that when he gives another warning, such as the previously ignored one, they would be inclined to give him some weight?

 

[Escape]

Where do you get your ideas about MI5 from?
What if, it emerged that there was a person, working for MI5, who told them 5 days before the 7/7 bombings that there was going to be a bombing. Apparently they were ignored, don't you think that when he gives another warning, such as the previously ignored one, they would be inclined to give him some weight?

I imagine such a person would have been arrested shortly after 7/7 and renditioned off to a secret location, 2km below the arctic circle.

 

[Wij]

I tend to agree with Lou on the external monitoring stuff, it would be better to increase their staff and internal processes and set up internal quality control standards which minimise impact on performance of analysis of data, as opposed to some bunch of elected ***** who dont really give a shit about anything apart from the next election.

It would probably more likely be a quango or an appointed group of our 'moral guardians' consisting of a bunch of religious leaders and a token atheist. Great idea. Let's give in-depth knowledge of our intelligence services to religious nutters.

bah.

 

[rynnor]

Now the 2 guys have been released without charge - prepare for a large out of court settlement for the police's shooting one of them - all in all not their finest hour...

 

[Chilly]

did the police actually shoot one? I've not seen anything in the news about it yet

 

[TWS]

It was a police bullet in his shoulder....

Some confusion as to how the trigger was pulled.

Something about the Heckler and Koch not being on 'safety' !

I'd guess the police will be absolved until we have all forgotten about it.