News Dumb Prince gets Foot in Mouth Disease

[rynnor]

BBC NEWS | UK | Banker bonuses minute, says duke

Fantastic - nothing like showing how you sympathise and understand the plight of your subjects - not!

And then to bleat on about how we shouldnt tax the super-rich non domiciles - way to go moron

 

[Ch3tan]

Why, he has a valid point imo, bonus's if your company has performed well and you have are earned. He says that he wants a crack down on the excessive and piss take bonus's.

And he is right about closing tax loopholes having a possible long term negative affect on the UK, a lot of those people will go elsewhere.

Hardly foot in mouth, not the whole of the banking sector is to blame for our current situation.

 

[rynnor]

Why, he has a valid point imo, bonus's if your company has performed well and you have are earned. He says that he wants a crack down on the excessive and piss take bonus's.

Excessive bonuses never went away here - back up to 6billion this year - thats only 2 billion lower than the peak year - ofc its excessive?

 

[Tom]

Why is it excessive? I haven't seen any justification of that word in the press.

If employing someone for 5 million earns a company 20 million, its 5 million well spent, especially if employing a different someone for 100,000 only makes the company 400,000.

 

[Ch3tan]

Excessive bonuses never went away here - back up to 6billion this year - thats only 2 billion lower than the peak year - ofc its excessive?

Why is the figure excessive? It covers the entire banking sector, it's not 6bn split between 4 fat cats.

At the end of the day people choose professions for many reasons, you go into the financial sector knowing that you can earn big bonus's, and if your company is doing well you would expect them.

 

[Raven]

Isn't the reason why they are doing so well due to the fact that they have written off losses against tax?

 

[rynnor]

Why is it excessive? I haven't seen any justification of that word in the press.

Excessive - "Excessive describes a quantity, amount, or degree that is more than what is justifiable, tolerable, or desirable: excessive drinking."

I think the million plus bonuses for traders are un-justifiable - they are essentially betting on a chaotic system with other peoples money - any success they have is just randomness not a product of any rare skill or talent.

I have no objection to entrepneurs etc. from earning as much as they like but these people do not justify such bonuses for their efforts.

Thus the term excessive is completely warranted.

 

[Malecheon]

they are essentially betting on a chaotic system with other peoples money - any success they have is just randomness not a product of any rare skill or talent.

Would you give your money to someone else to 'bet' for you, if you didn't think they had any skill ?

The only way traders become successful is if they develop the skills to be able to read patterns in the markets and stay informed as to what's happening in certain industries.

If it were as easy as you seem to think it is, everyone could do it for themselves and have a reasonable chance at getting a good return.

 

[Chilly]

Excessive - "Excessive describes a quantity, amount, or degree that is more than what is justifiable, tolerable, or desirable: excessive drinking."

I think the million plus bonuses for traders are un-justifiable - they are essentially betting on a chaotic system with other peoples money - any success they have is just randomness not a product of any rare skill or talent.

I have no objection to entrepneurs etc. from earning as much as they like but these people do not justify such bonuses for their efforts.

Thus the term excessive is completely warranted.

Not entirely true, you can beat the market if you have a brain and a computer to help out.

 

[rynnor]

Not entirely true, you can beat the market if you have a brain and a computer to help out.

Few points on this - 1 any fool can make money on a growing market.

2. All you get are statistical blips when you look at the performance of various unit trusts/pension funds etc.

3. If they really posessed any skills of predicting the market why did they all get so universally crushed by the recession and resulting stock market falls?

The Stock market is a chaotic system - you can take a punt n get lucky but the more transactions you make the closer you'll get to pure randomness.

The rest is just insider dealing.

 

[Bugz]

I'll let someone else deal with Rynnor's lack of knowledge on the matter.

 

[rynnor]

I'll let someone else deal with Rynnor's lack of knowledge on the matter.

That translates as I'm too stupid to write a considered arguement or just too lazy - pick one

 

[Bugz]

Well maybe if you provided insight & evidence into your claims...

But certainly from my reading up of trading, there is a very strong level of statistical analysis, timing & research and whilst luck does come into it, the fate of traders does not rest purely on it, as you seem to suggest. Indeed, the recession and the failure of trading to predict & counter the problems was no less a result of the fact the problems were a bubble and bubbles, economically, are near impossible to predict when they will burst. We know they exist, we know they will cause shit but when is another question.

 

[Chilly]

Few points on this - 1 any fool can make money on a growing market.

2. All you get are statistical blips when you look at the performance of various unit trusts/pension funds etc.

3. If they really posessed any skills of predicting the market why did they all get so universally crushed by the recession and resulting stock market falls?

The Stock market is a chaotic system - you can take a punt n get lucky but the more transactions you make the closer you'll get to pure randomness.

The rest is just insider dealing.

You can consistently make money with automated, ultra low latency trading schemes that exploit transient inefficiencies. Goldman make a shitload of cash doing this kind of thing. I write software that does this type of stuff, it works.

 

[Jupitus]

You can consistently make money with automated, ultra low latency trading schemes that exploit transient inefficiencies. Goldman make a shitload of cash doing this kind of thing. I write software that does this type of stuff, it works.

You need a better feed then.... oh hang on, you've just signed up!

 

[rynnor]

You can consistently make money with automated, ultra low latency trading schemes that exploit transient inefficiencies. Goldman make a shitload of cash doing this kind of thing. I write software that does this type of stuff, it works.

Thats just exploiting lag tho - how has that anything to do with traders being worth millions?

The only way they could justify that would be if they actually could predict the stock market but they cant.

If it cant be justified its excessive - Q.E.D.

 

[SilverHood]

Trading is all about the tools available. From my time at an energy trading desk, it was pretty simple arbitrage trading: Demand for electricity is X. Capacity with current online power plants is Y. Buy at price ABC, watch power station get turned on, price is now DEF. Profit = difference between DEF and ABC. A bit more to it than that obviously, but it wasn't rocket science, and these guys made anywhere from $1 million to $10 million a week.

As for bonuses, I don't think they are unjustified. A very good footballer could make 100k a week, and earn his club maybe 20 million a year.

A trader earns 100k a year, makes his company 20 million a year, yet we quip about paying him a million because he doesn't run about on a pitch for 90 minutes a week?

 

[rynnor]

A trader earns 100k a year, makes his company 20 million a year, yet we quip about paying him a million because he doesn't run about on a pitch for 90 minutes a week?

Sportsmen at the top of the game have rare skill - you think traders posess unique skills?

 

[Tom]

Sportsmen at the top of the game have rare skill - you think traders posess unique skills?

If they didn't, people wouldn't pay for their services.

 

[Furr]

I see nothing wrong in the size of bonuses these people make, many of them deserve it for signing their lives over to the company they work for, it not far from unusual for them to be working 60ish hours a week in high stress, high intensity situations where the fortunes of multinational corporations are tied to their success or failure.

Plus these large bonuses aren't just paid to bankers they are paid to people in many different sectors, the deals they make can support thousands of jobs and they facilitate the interactions of global companies and whole economies in creating and developing new resources that are utilised to develop their business plans, strategies and even the strength of an nations industry. Make no mistake these people are critical to the competitiveness of countries, and as a small one we need the best we can get.

Just out of interest rynnor what is your knowledge on what these people do? I have many peers that have gone up the ladder in the finance and enterprise sector, they are always on and have to deal with a diverse array of complex always changing variables in many different subjects that demands a massive amount of knowledge, skill and endurance plus the ability to work and succeed in situations without faltering when stakes can be huge and their actions changing the prospects of thousands of people across the globe.

"Sportsmen at the top of the game have rare skill - you think traders have unique skills?"

Hell yes! the stress in unbelievable, you need to be at the top of your game, if you make mistakes you get screwed, if you don't do well enough you get booted, the companies head-hunt and vie with each other to poach the best of the best will pay massive sums to acquire people with reputations and records is achieving results that are multiplied many many times what they are paid.

Anyway what do they care, if you attack the high earners and bonus earners they leave and this country can revel in losing massive amounts of cash, HSBC has already moved its CEO out to Hong Kong, the public word being because he is best placed to be there and it's no snub to the UK, although I have a few people in HSBC who say that it's more than that and that there a rumours flying around that the insurance department will be shifted in 2011, might just be rumours but that is how it always starts, the UK is becoming a hostile environment and many companies are looking to move out, and it's not just finance in the last 10 months I've had 3 friends in IT and 2 in Bio-industries shifted out to America from the UK, the drain will only increase and I would join them should the opportunity presents itself, the manner in which the population, country and the government seem to treat success in this country is counter productive, standard of life is lower than many of our competitors, and the infrastructure shit.

I do hope that everyone gets a job in the low carbon, carbon neutral fantasy future being planned for everyone btw.

Final note: The UK is in the worst recession on record and now has an economy that is smaller than Italy.

 

[rynnor]

I see nothing wrong in the size of bonuses these people make, many of them deserve it for signing their lives over to the company they work for, it not far from unusual for them to be working 60ish hours a week in high stress, high intensity situations where the fortunes of multinational corporations are tied to their success or failure.

Aside from a few fraudulent individuals I thought the whole system was geared nowadays that one individual cannot screw a whole company?

Plus these large bonuses aren't just paid to bankers they are paid to people in many different sectors

Name me another sector paying million pound bonuses?

the deals they make can support thousands of jobs.

And destroy them of course.

and they facilitate the interactions of global companies and whole economies in creating and developing new resources.

Pure fantasy on the creating new rescources - really did you come down with the last shower - businesses are there to make money - please dont pretend they serve the greater good

develop their business plans, strategies and even the strength of an nations industry.

That must be why our manufacturing industry is so strong - oh wait a minute...

Make no mistake these people are critical to the competitiveness of countries, and as a small one we need the best we can get.

I dont agree with a word of that but its good spiel

Just out of interest rynnor what is your knowledge on what these people do?

Nowt but having spent my whole career in finance - whats yours?

I have many peers that have gone up the ladder in the finance and enterprise sector, they are always on and have to deal with a diverse array of complex always changing variables in many different subjects that demands a massive amount of knowledge, skill and endurance plus the ability to work and succeed in situations without faltering when stakes can be huge and their actions changing the prospects of thousands of people across the globe.

Welcome to the world of business

Hell yes! the stress in unbelievable, you need to be at the top of your game, if you make mistakes you get screwed, if you don't do well enough you get booted

Yes but remember there are a number of jobs where if you screw up people die - how about junior doctors as a single example.

Anyway what do they care, if you attack the high earners and bonus earners they leave and this country can revel in losing massive amounts of cash,

Actually they are big on avoiding taxation - bonuses paid in shares to avoid income tax , offshore accounts etc. so the difference in tax revenue would be a lot less than youd think.

HSBC has already moved its CEO out to Hong Kong, the public word being because he is best placed to be there and it's no snub to the UK, although I have a few people in HSBC who say that it's more than that and that there a rumours flying around that the insurance department will be shifted in 2011, might just be rumours but that is how it always starts, the UK is becoming a hostile environment and many companies are looking to move out

I see - so you think thats all down to A - people complaining about excessive bonuses or perhaps B - a recognition of the new emerging world power to the East - one of these answers is right

The reality is that London is fading as a finance capital - the focus will move east as sure as day follows night - nothing can be done about that but I dont really see its relevance to the subject at hand?

 

[SilverHood]

Footballers get paid huge wages because that's the market rate. Traders, brokers and other top finance people get paid huge bonuses because, uhm, that's the market rate? It's pretty much what it boils down to.

 

[rynnor]

Footballers get paid huge wages because that's the market rate. Traders, brokers and other top finance people get paid huge bonuses because, uhm, that's the market rate? It's pretty much what it boils down to.

We didnt just bail out the Premier league to the tune of billions tho eh?

 

[Jupitus]

I think people need to see a line between the traders' bonuses which are competetive in a high-intensity environment (and using doctors for a comparison picks out a specific example of a sector badly in need of reform, not really a benchmark against all jobs) versus the bloated and out of proportion bonuses some of the very top brass are awarding themselves. I think the public seeing the likes of Fred the Shred getting paid a hugh sum on the back of RBS's very clear failings is what has caused such uproar and the players on the middle and lower rungs are being hauled into the debate unfairly.

 

[Furr]

Stuff

No counter arguments there, just shitty little one liners. You know what I won't agree with you're poxy left wing & anti-capitalist topics you're trying to propagate on this board (thread about fox hunting etc) so I'll just state now I don't agree with you or your politics and think your ideas and viewpoints are wrong, go ahead an express them, but being that you appear to be purposely announcing that you're a lefty means there's a good chance I'll be on the opposing side in my points of view.

 

[Ch3tan]

We didnt just bail out the Premier league to the tune of billions tho eh?

And we didn't bail the whole banking industry out either, just a few institutions, and only certain aspects where to blame for the losses.

 

[rynnor]

And we didn't bail the whole banking industry out either, just a few institutions, and only certain aspects where to blame for the losses.

I see - and if we hadnt bailed out the ones we did exactly how long would the others have lasted

The reality is we bailed out the whole industry.

 

[rynnor]

left wing & anti-capitalist topics

A. Humans are actually complicated things and labels are never accurate - I am neither left nor right - I hold views on various topics that are on different sides of this imaginary divide which kinda shows how meaningless it is.

B. I'm pro-capitalism - you can even see me defending it on the thread about Eco Communism but obviously your trying to slot me into a convenient category

 

[Furr]

Mmmm I guess I can give you the benefit of the doubt, but you have to admit you had two topics in one day that were pretty the typical rap sheet of a Labour activist, one being what is now seen as the "Class war" law (Fox Hunting) the other being a rage against the Bonuses plus you appeared to be extolling the virtues of a large state machine.

I'm very much in favour of small national government, strong local government, with tax and spending powers being devolved to towns and local areas. That people know how best to spend their money, and that state intervention should be minimal. Schools, Police, Hospitals, Town Councils, etc should be released from the grip of national government and be answerable to their users. Charities are better and more efficient at helping those who need it and that there is far too much power in London with us all being at the mercy of their social experiments when we don't want them.
Another gripe is that parties in power tend to focus on their heartlands first and foremost and that's made me and my local area bitter as where I live Labour have little presence have we've been shafted for over a decade with practically no investment yet having some of the highest tax burdens. Bastards.

 

[Bugz]

Rynnor, the govt. bailing out the banks in the banking sector was not solely to stop the others banks going down too.

The banking sector is not only very critical to the success of the UK economy as a whole but the govt. needed to instill confidence in the British people that the govt had things under control, to prevent the same problems of the (Great) Depression.

Whether the bonuses the traders receive are too high or not is down to personal opinion but in a sector so critical to the economy, yet at the same time, so much like a fully privatized industry, the blame on the bonuses can only rest with the govt IMO.

Your arguments are interesting but discussions re: the banking sector really need a strong underpinning of economic knowledge as so many people don't realise the importance and sensitivity of the banking sector and the govt relaitonship to it.