Dont whine about stuff, just tell how you would do it.

[AngelHeal]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee

The best thing MJ can do is to not listen to anything anyone says until he has something in our hands. Then he should take feedback and iterate. He is a professional game designer. We are players. Games designers know what players want. Players only think they know what they want.

IMO.

You are so wrong! Game designers think they know what players want. However often this is wrong! the most information is not within the company, its out there and only few, very few companies realize this.

I'd suggest you read up on some artikels about innovation and development.....


(for a good view, take a look how a company called IDEO try to innovate, they go outside their offices and just ask people, what do u want how do you feel about it what would you like to see different, how would you change this and that... I hope it can change your view of what you said )

 

[Hawkwind]

Whilst the term, design by committee may be true. Every project should have some market research behind it that at least guides the fundamentals of the design. To build something nobody wants is a very risky way to do business.

 

[Jairon Kalach]

Whilst the term, design by committee may be true. Every project should have some market research behind it that at least guides the fundamentals of the design. To build something nobody wants is a very risky way to do business.

Agreed, but there is a step that most folks miss during the process. In addition to doing the market research, you must also do analysis of the research and get behind what people say they want to what will truly make things better for people. Then you can start design. It's not about building something nobody wants. It's about building something nobody knows they want, until after they realize it exists. That's the primary difference between iteration and disruptive innovation.

 

[Tanos]

... and the "disruptive innovation" can come from or be inspired by an idea from the community. In fact they are quite rare and even most designers have never really one. I think we will see some in the early stages of the development but i'm also sure they don't make it into the game if the people don't like it. And i bet in the end there will be at least one element of gameplay in the final version that came from the community. (-;

 

[Jairon Kalach]

... and the "disruptive innovation" can come from or be inspired by an idea from the community. In fact they are quite rare and even most designers have never really one. I think we will see some in the early stages of the development but i'm also sure they don't make it into the game if the people don't like it. And i bet in the end there will be at least one element of gameplay in the final version that came from the community. (-;

It is possible... Let me phrase it this way... Every one of us (including and especially me) is going to have this amazing idea that we're sure will revolutionize the game. The reality is that the idea will most likely (99.9%) will either not be revolutionary or not be a good idea at all, all things considered. However, it is possible (20%) that the idea is a good jumping board to an idea that is revolutionary...


On the other hand, revolutionary ideas tend to be expensive. They require more thought and more refinement than iterative ideas. Which is why as a designer, sometimes you just decide to not worry about being revolutionary in an area. You have a product to ship, you can't spend all of your time rethinking *everything.*

And that brings me to a final point. Even if your idea is revolutionary and good, it doesn't mean that it fits in the larger system. Every element of design comes with trade-offs. The most important job of the designer is the manage the trade-offs in the implementation of the system, to ensure that the product as a whole is consistent and usable...

 

[AngelHeal]

It is possible... Let me phrase it this way... Every one of us (including and especially me) is going to have this amazing idea that we're sure will revolutionize the game. The reality is that the idea will most likely (99.9%) will either not be revolutionary or not be a good idea at all, all things considered. However, it is possible (20%) that the idea is a good jumping board to an idea that is revolutionary...


On the other hand, revolutionary ideas tend to be expensive. They require more thought and more refinement than iterative ideas. Which is why as a designer, sometimes you just decide to not worry about being revolutionary in an area. You have a product to ship, you can't spend all of your time rethinking *everything.*

And that brings me to a final point. Even if your idea is revolutionary and good, it doesn't mean that it fits in the larger system. Every element of design comes with trade-offs. The most important job of the designer is the manage the trade-offs in the implementation of the system, to ensure that the product as a whole is consistent and usable...

Isn't it great that everyone thinks his or her idea is amazing? Most ideas come from irritation, so if there are lots of ideas.....
Maybe not each and every single idea is revolutionary, but if you make a list of the 1000 ideas, I am pretty sure you can see a general pettern of where the current irritation is.

Most good ideas were iterrated hundreds of times before the idea was launched into a product or etc. Because when you have a good idea, you can bet ur you know what that atleast someone else finds your idea amazing and has a amazing idea for the idea

I disagree about the expensive part, but i think thats a discussion on a other level. Also descrie 'the larger system' please? Even though there are some common known models (such as Delfts Innovation Model) I still think most systems are dynamic. And yeah you have a product to ship, but would you ship a product that can affect the sales of the next product in a negative way?

You are right products need to be consistent and usable, infact there is a entire list of things it should be and I actually agree on this Though ask yourself this, why do you have interest in camelot unchained? The product isnt there, the idea aint perfect yet somehow you believe that in time and trough an itterative proces a product can be created to match a current and future demand of customers.....

 

[Tanos]

It's getting kind of "meta", we should set up a lecture about "innovation in the computer based society"

 

[rynnor]

My points is, dont whine about something, come with a decent solution to what you see is the problem, explain how you want to fixs this problem.

The problem is that in your example below a person has found a problem (in their eyes) and is suggesting a solution.

nerf 9 sec Dragonfang nerf Doublefrost

In an RvR game with non-mirrored classes discussions of the relative strengths of the non-mirrors is inevitable and sometimes the correct solution is to tone something down.

 

[Jairon Kalach]

*snip*
Most good ideas were iterrated hundreds of times before the idea was launched into a product or etc. Because when you have a good idea, you can bet ur you know what that atleast someone else finds your idea amazing and has a amazing idea for the idea

I disagree about the expensive part, but i think thats a discussion on a other level.

The iteration that you describe to take an innovation from "good idea" to shippable part of a product is the expense I'm talking about. Sometimes that cost will be justified by the benefit. Other times, the feature or sub-feature that would innovate isn't important enough to the overall product to drive enough sales or reduce enough costs to justify the development cost of the innovation.

Also descrie 'the larger system' please? Even though there are some common known models (such as Delfts Innovation Model) I still think most systems are dynamic. And yeah you have a product to ship, but would you ship a product that can affect the sales of the next product in a negative way?

The world I live in, right now, is enterprise account management systems. The primary similarity to systems design in my world and systems design in the game world is that any given feature is likely to interact with a number of different internal systems. A designer who is actually doing the work of a designer manages the effect on all systems. For example, there was recent discussion in the KS comments about whether arrows should be "virtual" or inventory items. This discussion has the potential to affect economy, crafting system, combat, inventory management, etc... So, when I describe the larger system, I'm talking about the product as a whole.

You are right products need to be consistent and usable, infact there is a entire list of things it should be and I actually agree on this Though ask yourself this, why do you have interest in camelot unchained? The product isnt there, the idea aint perfect yet somehow you believe that in time and trough an itterative proces a product can be created to match a current and future demand of customers.....

That's at best a small part of it. I've said this in a few other places as well, but I think it's worth repeating for this discussion. I am not traditionally a PvP fan. I've never played DaoC or War. In fact, when I first heard about CU, I sneered (in my mind) at the person talking about it, because I was tired of DaoC fanatics complaining about WvWvW not being DaoC RvR in the GW2 forums. Out of boredom, at one point, I started reading through the FPs. It didn't sound entirely like a game I would want to play, but I was struck by something. MJ had a strong cohesive vision that he articulated well and I knew would resonate with a certain subset of players. The second part for me, then, was that he was going through KS to build a strong basis of feedback for *his* ideas. That was enough for me to back the game and back it strongly. Sure because it was iterative... Iterative as a feedback process. But most importantly because it wasn't another game that was going to try to "listen to the market." It was a niche game with a strong vision and a leader who would use an iron fist to make that vision possible... And a risk management process to ensure that that vision would be successful. I believe that all software should be made that way. A strong personality doing product direction, and a tight iterative loop. It's the type of team that I've enjoyed working with the most, and seen the most success from. I've seen crowd-driven development done a number of times, and it really didn't end up with software that anyone liked.

(Since then, BTW, I've gained a lot of respect for those DaoC fans, and learned that I will probably enjoy the game as a player, as well as from a development perspective)

 

[professor nomos]

It's getting kind of "meta", we should set up a lecture about "innovation in the computer based society"

the difference between computer mediated innovation and "standard" innovation is two fold: 1) localization. standard innovations impacted by local standards than CMI since with computers comes exposure to broader markets/tastes 2) speed. CMI is able too reiterated quickly but can also be disseminated quickly too...


oh wait you weren't serious

 

[Jairon Kalach]

It's getting kind of "meta", we should set up a lecture about "innovation in the computer based society"

Yeah, but that's kind of the point. Design is a meta process. People should take this opportunity to become comfortable going broad and going meta, a lot.

 

[Tanos]

As right as you all are, the "problem" or "issue" with that project is, that you have very enthusiastic fans that spent the last 10 years thinking about how their perfect MMORPG would look like and now they try to bring all of this ideas into CU. Very few of them might be designers with a sense for the big picture. That's how it is and that's how CSE will have to deal with it. I agree that you need some kind of leadership in a crowd-driven approach and from what i've seen so far MJ is a great person for that job.

 

[Dutch_NS]

The problem is that in your example below a person has found a problem (in their eyes) and is suggesting a solution.



In an RvR game with non-mirrored classes discussions of the relative strengths of the non-mirrors is inevitable and sometimes the correct solution is to tone something down.

I get that, but you could write it down like this: In my encounter with Shadowblades I noticed that 1 of there style is used all the time, this style is Doublefrost, shadowblades just spam this style over and over because it does way more damage then any other style ingame, this cant be your intention that every SB spams this style ? Would you like to look into my concern about this style? Because its really killing the balance of the game.

^^ That is what i call feedback instead of whine: Nerf Doublefrost.

 

[rynnor]

I get that, but you could write it down like this: In my encounter with Shadowblades I noticed that 1 of there style is used all the time, this style is Doublefrost, shadowblades just spam this style over and over because it does way more damage then any other style ingame, this cant be your intention that every SB spams this style ? Would you like to look into my concern about this style? Because its really killing the balance of the game.

^^ That is what i call feedback instead of whine: Nerf Doublefrost.

True but what you are really describing is different levels of quality in defect reporting - some will put in excellent detail naturally - others won't.

More productively a sticky telling people how to raise a defect/give feedback might be more helpful.

 

[Delavega86]

Or we got Mezzed and Bombed by 8 people when our 100 man zerg was taking a keep boehoe.

if that's the case, it would mean theres no collision detection, which means i wouldnt be playing RvR, and just stick to building stuff.
say no to blobs! no more blobs! no more blobs!

 

[old.Tohtori]

Whilst the term, design by committee may be true.

No, no, never, eww.

Brainstorming is fine, idea throwing is fine, but at the end of day designers word must be law.

And as far as that goes, i personally make a game that i'd like to play. Fans saying XYZ ofcourse matters, but it can never be a deciding factor since 99.9% of opinions on features, nerfs, buffs etc come from the deep need of a player to be better then the rest. "Nerf this class i'm solely playing" rarely enters the field.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I get that, but you could write it down like this: In my encounter with Shadowblades I noticed that 1 of there style is used all the time, this style is Doublefrost, shadowblades just spam this style over and over because it does way more damage then any other style ingame, this cant be your intention that every SB spams this style ? Would you like to look into my concern about this style? Because its really killing the balance of the game.

^^ That is what i call feedback instead of whine: Nerf Doublefrost.

I'd rather read "Doublefrost seems overpowered" and look into it, then see if there's a problem or if it's "as planned". With thousands of "problems" i prefer short problem descriptions over overcomplicated/polite ones

 

[Hawkwind]

No, no, never, eww.

Brainstorming is fine, idea throwing is fine, but at the end of day designers word must be law.

And as far as that goes, i personally make a game that i'd like to play. Fans saying XYZ ofcourse matters, but it can never be a deciding factor since 99.9% of opinions on features, nerfs, buffs etc come from the deep need of a player to be better then the rest. "Nerf this class i'm solely playing" rarely enters the field.

So, no market research whatsoever, no alpha testing, no feedback reviews. Just 100% what the designer wants. Good luck with that, certainly adding to the risk factor on your product.

 

[old.Tohtori]

So, no market research whatsoever, no alpha testing, no feedback reviews. Just 100% what the designer wants. Good luck with that, certainly adding to the risk factor on your product.

I didn't say that. Designer has to take it into consideration, but that's all, consideration.

 

[Hawkwind]

Neither did I state feedback was an absolute, just a sensible part of the process

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yeap, i was just stating that design by committee is the worst thing to happen to a game

 

[Muylaetrix]

It is possible... Let me phrase it this way... Every one of us (including and especially me) is going to have this amazing idea that we're sure will revolutionize the game. The reality is that the idea will most likely (99.9%) will either not be revolutionary or not be a good idea at all, all things considered. However, it is possible (20%) that the idea is a good jumping board to an idea that is revolutionary...

why try to make something revolutionary ? if things work, leave it alone. no use reinventing boiling water. focus creativity on the things that have failed in the past.

a new take on stealth via the valewalk mechanism .. hm, could be interesting..
player building .. i predict buildings that create nightmare framerate and have horrible LoS issues.
no pve .. could be boring at times, sometimes just farming mobs suits my .. activity level.. and stuff
new player races (visuals, looks not animation or model) .. /puke so far.
rezzing .. DAoC was fine, GW2 is a disaster, really.
progression .. i have to see it to make a judgement.
...
feel free to add to the list,

i think most of the people on this forum want a DAoC 2 and are doubtful about bat crazy stuff

 

[gohan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee

The best thing MJ can do is to not listen to anything anyone says until he has something in our hands. Then he should take feedback and iterate. He is a professional game designer. We are players. Games designers know what players want. Players only think they know what they want.

IMO.

Who's this dickhead?

 

[acron^]

Who's this dickhead?

Haha Mike, I fucking miss you man.

 

[gohan]

We need another BBQ reunion shindig over summer man, been too long!!

 

[CorNokZ]

Lol was about to give @gohan a small slap on the wrist for being the dickhead

Need to play nice in the new section and welcome returning and new members Good to see you two knew each other

 

[gohan]

Lol was about to give @gohan a small slap on the wrist for being the dickhead

Need to play nice in the new section and welcome returning and new members Good to see you two knew each other

Why does your title say TDC's dutch bitch when you're Swedish?

 

[CorNokZ]

Why does your title say TDC's dutch bitch when you're Swedish?

I'm an international bitch, you see?

 

[TdC]

Corn is too big a bitch for just one country o_0

 

[Amiga]

I'm an international bitch, you see?

What? Thought you were danish