Division lineups A JOKE

[old.SLoBBy]

ROFLMAO

who thought of the lineups for clans in divisions?

I wont mention which clans should not be in divisions but there are quite a few that are in the wrong div imo.

div 2 and div 3 clans should be swapped around except 1 clan which shud not be in div2.

div 4 is ok, but divs1, 2, 3 need some serious rethinking imho.

its not often i raise an issue but the way its stands is a fecking joke.

L8r
SLoB

 

[old.Oggie]

1) Nobody "thought" of the divisions, they were all decided on in an initial "cup" whereby the further a clan went in the cup the higher theyre league placing.
2) Since when did your opinion (or anyone elses for that matter) count for defining league positions ? thankfully never.
3) League positions are not a matter that is open to debate.

I never heard you complain about this when you were in clan-X, maybe because they were in div1 the fact that there were other "hard done by clans" never seemed to bother you, its nothing to do with your new clan git being in div 3 (youve skipped 1 division already isnt that enough?) is it that your now trying to gain support in your opinon of the leagues being "a fecking joke" from "clans you won't mention"?

Also this matter has been discussed in irc several times with exactly the same outcome, no you will not be automatically put into div1 because you consider yourselves an "l33t" clan. If you want to play in div1 join a div1 clan....simple

Hope this helps

 

[Teaser]

Or work your way up to Div 1.

It may be a bit dull going through two-11 week seasons before git get to div 1, but they should have done better in the original cup we had, and if they weren't in that then . . . . . :-/

Plus (assuming you get to div 2 ) you might find Div 2 of a higher quality than you think.

 

[old.HuDDy]

could'nt agree more why should some clans be fast tracked to the top and other clans who worked hard to get where they are be put back just because is some arrogant peeps option they are Better.

do like everyone else and work for it

"NO FREE RIDES"

 

[bigfoot]

The point about working your way up is an arguable one, for me personally i'd prefer to be in a division where my games were good rather than one where we get mauled all the time, or indeed maul all the opposition.

Div5 last season was interesting, we (iNf) got owned in some games but somehow finished 2nd and got promotion. We were not the 2nd best side in our division, we shouldn't have come 2nd really but just got some lucky results, but i still reckon we could beat some Div3 (now Div2) sides and it was quite clear that the general skill level in the division was far too high for what i would consider to be a Div5, and for some of the weaker clans it probably wasn't very enjoyable.

I do agree if clans have earned a place in a division they shouldn't be stopped from taking that place, however if spaces do exist, and by my calculations there should be 3 "spots" in Div2 available due to the 3+ folded clans in Div1, then a bit of fiddling can be a beneficial thing to a league. Just promoting sides because they are next in line (after the automatic promotion spots) is not always the best course of action.

Also remember it isn't just 2 x 11 week seasons, you have the 3 weeks either side of the season and the Cup weeks. Season 3 will probably be finished just before Crimbo and i doubt a new season after that will start until January, so it is important for clans to be in a suitable division for Season 3.

 

[Teaser]

Aye fair enough. But there would have to be strict rules. Otherwise player Bloggs could start a clan with some other leetits, and get promoted to a higher division after being around for only a season or less. Though I do agree it is pointless (and less enjoyable for others) having a clan in a division that is generally of a lower quality, I also think promotion should be earned, oppose to being done just because they are leetits.

Plus the rules at present prevent whinging from people who believe their clan deserve to be in a higher Div.

I'm just looking at Div 5 of bwra3l and inf came second, with only losing 3 games out of 11. This suggests inf are of perfectly good standard relative to the rest of the div 5 clans. Yeah ok, maybe you got a default win or two, but that's the way it works. Are you saying inf aren't good enough to compete in div 4 ?

Atleast this way there can be no arguments over who get promotion and who doesn't. I reckon if Fix was to decide to move clans about Div's based on their skills alone, it would cause more arguments.

If it were implented, I reckon a clan can't skip div's purely based on their apparent skills before a certain time period of being alive. They should show they'll make the effort to show up for games, so maybe a minimal of one season of activity.

 

[bigfoot]

Fair enough, make clans work for their promotion places, i'm not saying that you deny other clans promotion they have earned to accomodate these "l33t" clans but at the same time if you have a space in a division you should pick a clan who is suitable for that space based on skill, not based on the length of time they have been playing Ra3.

For example in CTF there have been lots of clans movements in the past 2/3 months, some very talented new clans such as WR and xYz have emerged. xYz recently played IQS in the league and won both maps, big wow u might think but then IQS have not lost a single map for 3 seasons in the league prior to this match and had won the top division for 2 seasons running in what is a very competitive league, 74 clans starting this current season and many of the top sides in Q3CTF in Europe playing in it.

Now xYz might be slightly a bad case as they had many members from a former Div1 clan (Cx) but imagine how pointless it would be if they had been put in Div4 and told to work their way up the divisions for 3 seasons. Here you have a side which is say the equivalent in Ra3 of induce or X (whoever is the best in the league) who have to play for close on 2 years just to get to their proper level. This to me doesn't make sense.

The reason you have divisions is to group clans based on skill, on this basis then Division 1 should be for your best clans, and Division 5 for your weakest clans. Lumping all the new clans in the bottom division negates this, making some divisions meaningless.

 

[Teaser]

Bah, I think the man may have a point. Though I am not admitting defeat yet.

 

[old.Oggie]

Yeah, whilst Bif does indeed have a good point I still feel that to elevate a clans position in the league beyond where thay have won promotion is unfair on other participating clans that have started at the bottom and worked there way up.
Using this I think could end up "pissing of the masses to satisfy the few".

At the end of the day I think it has to be considered as to what is fair for the whole league rather than what is fair to one or two clans.

One possible answer would maybe to have some kind of "play off" system whereby clans that have done particularly well in there divisions, i.e first place would get the oppurtunity to contest any "open" spaces there may be in higher divisions (i.e the chance to skip a division or two) to fill places vacated by teams that have dropped out. This would at least mean the clan had to some extent "earned" there position. However this isn't a system we use now or have ever done so in the past so its not something I would suggest in the week or so before a new season starts, it may however be a way of solving this problem should it arise again at the beginning of the next season.

To reiterate again I do not think a clan should be able to automaticaly skip divisions because of its alleged "l33tn3ss".

 

[raw]

Personaly i think clans should earn promotion to higher divisions, granted if they are very good then move them up a division or two, but not directly into the top division, as clans in division 2 are compeiting to get into that top division week in week out, and would be unfair to place a clan from division 5 above them. Maybe put them in div2 and see how they do then ?

 

[old.UncleSteve]

git have already skipped div4 and gone into div3 as many of the clans in div5 did the season before that. While clans like git should be higher in the league you cannot expect that by doing so well in div5 u have a right to jump straight into div1.

Carrying on oggie's idea of a playoff maybe clans who have finished in the top maybe 2 places in a division were given a chance to compete in a pre season play off to decide which clans take up any remaining places in higher divisions could be a good idea.

However this and other ideas are difficult to apply and you are always goin to leave some clan unhappy with how things have worked out for them.

unc

 

[raw]

I think the fair thing to do would be to put git in division 2 along with the other good clans from lower divisions who may be of a division 1 standard and let them battle it out in division 2, i think it would be very wrong for any clan to just be put right into division 1.

/me licks unc

thats all for now

 

[old.akiki]

well

Look at what was thought to be the final standings in each division this season, and what they really are.
Some say, let's get l33t clans in higher division cause they're l33t.
Ok, funny point of view, but makes me wonder : how do you define a l33t clan ? Look at MsR, nobody really knew them except in France, they totally owned division 2, except vs rK, look at [D], they were expected as the invincible team of division 2, and they lost both to rK (before they sadly folded) and MsR, although they finished at a convincing 2nd place.

There can be other examples : imagine XL would have missed the first season cup and would have began the bwra3l in 5th division, and then the league admins decided they were too l33t to play in the lower division and put them in division 1.
Sadly, for some reason, XL leave the league after 2 weeks ; how happy would be the team that was kept in division 2 because of XL's reputation, although they would have won their promotion on the ground !
Now, I'm only talking about XL because they're a known clan that did leave the league this season, nothing towards them, but it could happen with many clan, if not leaving the league, folding like rK did... To me it's a very bad idea to favour a well-known clan or a so-called l33t clan. The only good way to get promoted is by succeeding in finishing in the top 3 spots of your division, again and again, untill you're in division 1.

The main reason is that admins do NOT know all clans perfectly, especially foreigner clans (like french clans who are most of the time either over-rated or under-estimated imo ). The other reason is that nobody is objective, everybody is subjective even when evaluating a clan.

Another important thing is that, a league season requires some "clan skills" which are, being able to get a full line up every week @ the same time during 11 weeks, being able to keep most of the members active, and not to see them quitting for some other clan.
Being the best clan in the world one day, but having lost most of your active members 2 weeks later because they've gone either inactive or to another clan just won't lead you to win even the lowest divisions if you keep on defaulting most of your games.
These "clan skills" have to be proven by succeeding in playing a full season without defaulting or losing a game because your main players are unavailable.

Now, big-foot probably knows better than me what he says when he talks about CTF (well, I know he really does indeed, saying it another way would be insulting me thinks .
But talking about RA3, there are a lot of clan changes, lots more than in TDM or CTF (dunno why exactly, a friend of mine says because it's less 'professionnal' than TDM, maybe yes, maybe not, I really don't know), and a lot of surprises.
Clans are created, clans folds, player moves from one clan to another, sometimes more than one time per season (look at some UK top division's clan's line-ups at the start of this season, and at the end of it, it's pretty obvious), and thus, create big surprises.
Nobody would have think BunK will lead div2 most of the season (although we had a fairly easy start and failed the end of the season for some internal problems - which are solved since some time ago, believe me we will fully assume our div1 spot ) ; a lot of peeps did not expect MsR ; 13th has beaten onslaught before they left the league, which was a big surprise to lots of people, thus proving that, although they were not a well-known l33t top clan, they could do as well and were too a top clan ; onslaught and XL left the league ; rK folded after beating div2 top 2 clans MsR and [D] ; and there is a lot more to say that wasn't at all expected.

Now If I follow that "place l33t clans in top divisions" rule, maybe there would only be 4 or 5 clans left at the end of the season in div1, and some top clans like MsR would only be going up from div3 to div2.

My opinion is that competition is competition, the only way you can win something, and go to higher levels, is to compete, that's all. If you look at other sports, (yes, even the big ones, where a lot of money's involved), nobody can expect to jump divisions by recruiting l33t players, licking asses and trying to be well known. Everybody has to make its way through, even if it has to take ages. There are still RA2 leagues going on, I expect any clan in div5 next season to have the time to climb up to div1, if they have the skill to do so, a long time before bwra3l stops.
After all, won't the pleasure and the pride of doing so be greater and more enjoyable than getting in top divisions by the means of rumours and suppositions ?

That's all for now, sorry for this pretty long post and for my poor english, but I wanted to be clear on this subject which is very important to me (well, relatively important to the little quake part of my life .

 

[old.tophy]

hummm

I just want to say when I see some clans as AT not yet in div1 after 2 seasons something is wrong in the system. AT with their first team could be one of the best RA3 clan in Europe. LAst season I said in the column of Nightstrike that MsR will won the Div2 and NS said that nah they will be happy to finish in mid table ...

In Div5 clan on (best German RA3 clan 2 month ago) was only invited in div5 ... I don't remeber really but a second big Euro clan was invited in div5 and they both retired from the league.

I remember when I was a TDM player, I ve seen direcltly with Bigfoot in which Div we should be when I entered under BwL clan Tag (the real one not the existing one ) And when I was in clan . The two times we finished in the 3 first position of the div ...

Each season there are some free spot for new clans, I suggest you to take some information on specifics clan to change them in the correct division. I read a comment on CLanbase from one FRJ who said that they hadn't the skill to be in Div1, but with all forfeit they will be one more time in div1. I am sure that some D1 clan could agree to change division. And some other clan should be in D1. With 12 stop by division half of the best RA3 clan are not in Div 1. In fact last season everything was based on 3 or 4 games between the 3 or 4 best clans and the results was 11 - 10 or 11 - 9 between this 3 or 4 best clans. It is boring others clans was just there to forfeit or easy win ((

When I see the first div of the BWDML it seems more exiting with lot of good clan in div1.

I already speak about that with some admin and I know there is no real solution for that but trying is better than idling.

Sorry for my english, Hard to check ur english at work

 

[old.Oggie]

As far as I know both XL and Onslaught left the league due to poor pings to the Barrysworld servers, I recall Onslaught not being happy about being put in Div 5 and I guess to then lose there first game (with pings around the 120 mark) was a little too much for them to take. Lucky they werent put straight into Div1 really!!

 

[old.A3GiR]

=]

i think the problem come from the division line up of the season that just finished..


playoff for the clans who did particulary well in lower division sound a good idea..to "win" the right to skip a div..
(git and clan ! deserve a place in div2 to my opinion..)
but i suppose it s too late for the upcoming season :/

 

[old.Gangrene]

Seeing as BWRa3 has a cup event before the new season starts perhaps this may be a time to revise the division line-ups.

I'm not talkin about a complete re-work of the league structure here, but if, for example, certain clans do exceedingly well in the cup and they're only in the lower divisions the Admins could consider moving them to a higher division.

Before you start saying "well yes but a cup is a one off thing" consider the situation of "clan a" in div 4 who get a cup draw of facing "clans b,c and d" all in div2 and "clan a" walk through the round robin stage with ease and, say, make it to the semi-final stages.

Would you not think that this "clan a" are misplaced in div4 and the lack of reasonable competition may eventually cause said clan's members to feel dissatified with their games to the extent of a lot of them not wanting to play anymore in this league and the same could be said for their opposition in div4 who only have to look forward to being totally demoralised by a whupping from a clan that should be in a higher division.

I, for one, am not looking forward to season 3 with the likes of Fey,! and Git in our division. Myself, I don't really mind having my ass whupped by better clans , but I know, from experience, that the rest of my clan would start to lose interest in playing in said league to the extent that we'll end up d/f games for lack of players.

Well that's my 2 pence worth, if it sounds complete rubbish I blame it on the painkillers me Doc has prescibed

 

[old.The Fixer]

If any clans are placed into a higher division than they feel happy with mail me and i'll arrange a swap with a clan from the division below you. I did this last season for TS and FURY.

What i won't do is place a new clan into division 1 or 2 simply because they have skillz.

 

[old.NightStrike]

what about if they pay u ?

 

[old.SLoBBy]

ahh
this is better
at least you guys are discussing it, which was the main point

Bif has captured my thoughts on this exactly.

I wasn't expecting clan git to go straight into div1, but some of those clans who are(were?) in there did not strike me as div 1 material.

I'm not going to slag any clans off here but there were 2/3 that should be in div2 maybe but they have been there somewhile so they stay in div 1, thats fair enough but we all like competition amongst clans that are similar in skillz.

anyways glad that its being discussed

L8r
SLoB

oo might see some of you slackas @ i8

whoop

 

[old.akiki]

well

I like competition too. Just competition. I dislike, btw, clans who thinks they are better than another just because they beat them once (not knowing if the other clan was in its best shape) or because they beat that other clan that beats that other clan, etc.
I'd really like to know how you evaluate a clan's skill when, for example, BunK beat l&p, l&p beat MsR, and MsR trash BunK (it's all on clanbase). Now in a training, when we beat =][= 11-9 on map11, and when we play this map again and lose 3-11 just after, tell me who is the best ? Did Insane Inside played badly in the first match, did BunK lose their concentration in the second ?
Only competition can be the judge of who should be or not in the lower or higher divisions. It's not about potential. It's all about competition, and the best do not always win like they should just because skill is not the only parameter involved.
There are a lot of parameters that are to be considered in a whole season, and you just can't decide who is to be in division 1 or not. Every one has to make it his own way, and if they have to start from division 5 they'll start from division 5, that's all.

 

[Jintao]

I think things should stay just as they are as every season the divisions will become more refined, it just takes a little patience from clans and you'll end up in the division you should be in in good time.

 

[Jintao]

Originally posted by SLoBBy
div 4 is ok, but divs1, 2, 3 need some serious rethinking imho.

What on earth is wrong with div1? IMO nearly all the clans in div1 deserve to be in div1. I'd like to know why u think div1 needs serious rethinking?

 

[old.NightStrike]

it needs rethinking cause his clan ain't there duh

and btw akira clanbase doesn't count for much because depending on the servers one clan can have a bit of an advantage over the other.

 

[old.Swelt]

The only thing that bothers me slightly is that in Div 1 (and possibly others, though I wasn't mapying as much attention to those) 3 clans dropped out. This meant that no clan was demoted from Div 1... meaning that a clan that didnt win a single game all season remains in Div 1. How can that be fair?

May I suggest that there be a rule that at least one clan should be demoted from each division, regardless of how many drop out. That means that even if 3 clans pull again, there is still a relegation battle...

 

[old.akiki]

indeed

Nightstrike, that's one of the parameters I was thinking about
For example, XL and ON (which are truly clans that would deserve div1 if divisions were all about fame and supposed skill) had real ping problems in barrysworld, and having a "skilled" clan with a 30 ms ping against another "skilled" clan with a 120ms average ping wouldn't lead to "great" and "spectacular" wars IMO