Dirty Tricks

[dakeyras]

Now that it is known how spell resists work it may explain just why DT gets resisted so often.

DT is on the 'body' resist table (probably the most popular resist) and is granted at Level 20. I wonder whether it is being considered a lvl 20 'spell' which would sure explain the high outright resist rate.

My opinion is that it should behave like Flurry i.e. unresistable and should be on shorter timer. We can only hope.

 

[Belomar]

I'm far from being privy to the intricacies of the dual-wielding light tanks of the various realms, but to me it does seem a bit unfair that berserkers have uber-damage shapeshift on a 7 minute timer, while mercenaries have a semi-crappy and quite cheesy effect on a 30 minute one.

 

[Vasconcelos]

Personally i would had been much more pleasured if they would had given us DT unresistable n on 7 minutes timer, instead the soft DD flurry. N something similar to the BMs Triple Weild.

 

[old.LandShark]

7min timer is too short for an unresistable ability that turns any meleer or melee hybrid into a joke for the duration of a fight.
Zerkers are not overpowered, BM's and mercs can't produce the same lawnmower effect but that's a BM/merc issue...

 

[Apathy]

Put Landshark on the Body table! He's too irresistable! Aieeeee...~collapses~

a.
*

 

[Eof]

DT only lasts for 30 secs even when unresisted which isn't usually the duration of a fight. Have duelled Jiggs a couple of times and will only do it when I know DT is active. Without my DT and buffs I am OWNED the one time he didn't resist it things went differently. I think a 30 minute timer on an ability that has such high resists is sucky though event hough it can be a powerful tool when it works. Either 30 mins timer and make it unresistible or a lower timer would be great.

I tend to use it most RvR as a means of trying to defend my casters. I can't slam them and if prevent flight isn't slowing them then I will try to throw dirt at them before I move on to my target (Can you sense I don't dare attack for fear of the screams if a mezz/root was on the way )

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by old.LandShark

Zerkers are not overpowered, BM's and mercs can't produce the same lawnmower effect but that's a BM/merc issue...

That is highly debatable.

At the start of the game Zerkers were a pretty balanced class who gave up all defence for an uber offence when they went 'hamster'.

What has changed is that zerkers no longer give up all that defence. RA's have created an inbalance with the zerker more so than with any other class. They have been given ways of circumventing the 'balancing' feature of their class.

Mythic will address it, but if they bring Mercs/BMs up to zerker level we will have 3 out of control classes so the options appear limited to toning down zerkers. Losing all effects of RA's and RR's whilst in Frenzy might be an answer...curbing Left Axe might be another.

 

[Belomar]

Originally posted by old.LandShark
Zerkers are not overpowered, BM's and mercs can't produce the same lawnmower effect but that's a BM/merc issue...

See above, you chairmaker you, I never said it was overpowered, I said it was unfair.

 

[Jiggs]

with the damage output of a fully buffed merc, DT is effectively a 'win' button when it lands.

if you make it unresistable you are giving mercs an ability which means they can kill *any* melee class 1v1 with DT up

that is much more overpowered then anything zerks or blademasters have

sure shorten the timer perhaps 15mins seems fair, but making it unresistable is waaaay overpowered imo

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Jiggs
with the damage output of a fully buffed merc, DT is effectively a 'win' button when it lands.

if you make it unresistable you are giving mercs an ability which means they can kill *any* melee class 1v1 with DT up

that is much more overpowered then anything zerks or blademasters have

sure shorten the timer perhaps 15mins seems fair, but making it unresistable is waaaay overpowered imo

This only applies in 1v1 situations (something I know Friars like to talk about a lot )

In group combat, DT will only be effective against 1 person in the battle, whereas a hamster will happily run around 2-shotting most of a group (if he can stay alive and mobile).

 

[dakeyras]

DT isn't a guaranteed 'win' button. It is 'increased' fumbles, not 'guaranteed' fumbles.

In a duel with a thrust polearmswoman DT landed and she fumbled twice in the 30 seconds, out of 5 hits.

If DT was unresistable and effectively stunned the opponant then, yes, it would be overpowered. But when it is resisted 75% of the time, doesn't effect every swing and is on a 30 min timer then that is a joke.

If, as I suspect, it is being considered a lvl 20 spell then it should be scaled to be par to level. Then shorten the timer...and fix our styles

 

[Flimgoblin]

the problem with mercs/blademasters is that Dual Wield and Celtic Dual are no better than Slash/Blades.

They give you a nice little damage add in your second hand (and the possiblity of a cheesy style-damage haste...)

Whereas left axe has sickening damage styles and a constant haste (they style with a 4.2 speed weapon damage but swinging every 3.5 or so)

(even) If you leave out the 'fluff' abilities the zerker completely outclasses the other two light tanks due to having a big damage bonus.

 

[hotrat]

7min timer is too short for an unresistable ability that turns any meleer or melee hybrid into a joke for the duration of a fight.

There is a similar ability that does this to casters, nearsight, except it lasts 2 mins and can be cast again and again and again.

 

[belth]

Originally posted by hotrat
There is a similar ability that does this to casters, nearsight, except it lasts 2 mins and can be cast again and again and again.

/em wubs casting 55% nearsight on lvl50's

 

[Arnor]

What has changed is that zerkers no longer give up all that defence. RA's have created an inbalance with the zerker more so than with any other class. They have been given ways of circumventing the 'balancing' feature of their class.

So the fact that we have got half af, no parry/evade and studded armour isnt drawbacks?


here, with caps so all the denser ones will catch it too:

STOPPING A ZERK IN FRENZY IS E-FUCKING-Z IF YOU HAVE HALF A BRAIN.

Slam, mezz, root, snare, stun, kill


Quick Newsflash: You cant use fa/ip if youre stunned, and melee WILL take you down when you got half af.

Now, this might make my life a bit harder in the frontiers, but anything to enlighten a few dim bulbs. If there is ONE thing that annoys the fuck out of me its ppl blaming GOA for nerfing clerics, saying that frenzy is an i-win button and so on. But I digress, its late and i cba to open that bag ^^


now, im not opposed to reducing the timers on DT and TW to 20mins, or even 15. But those abilities have no downsides.




edit: fingo:

(even) If you leave out the 'fluff' abilities the zerker completely outclasses the other two light tanks due to having a big damage bonus.

NO we DONT! trust me on this one, the closest duels I have, and most other zerks seem to have the same experience, bm's and mercs.

Their problem is that in RvR they havent really a role to fill, lw/spearoes outdmg bm's, and polearmsmen(and prolly 2h dudes too) outdmg mercs. In midgard we have nothing better to tear shit up than the zerk.


The problem with zerks came with 1.54 and castable end-regen.
The BIGGEST drawback for zerks was that LA drained HUMOUNGOUS amounts of endurance, and that unstyled we do shit dmg. Thats the problem, and imho it should be fixed, not nerf zerkers or LA or something like that, fix the end-regen and all will be happy.
Do you have any idea of how many who bitched about zerks pre-1.54? didnt think so, there werent any(almost)

 

[K0nah]

Originally posted by Belomar
I'm far from being privy to the intricacies of the dual-wielding light tanks of the various realms, but to me it does seem a bit unfair that berserkers have uber-damage shapeshift on a 7 minute timer, while mercenaries have a semi-crappy and quite cheesy effect on a 30 minute one.

...that gets resisted 9 times outta 10.

timer needs reduced, resistability needs to get reduced/eliminated, you can't resist a 10 foot rat. id like to see dirty tricks as a pbaoe myself, both zerkers and bm "specials" have the potential to affect several ppl, so should ours.

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by Arnor2



:

STOPPING A ZERK IN FRENZY IS E-FUCKING-Z IF YOU HAVE HALF A BRAIN.

Slam, mezz, root, snare, stun, kill

Sorry...zerkers are out of control and need to be reined in.

The balance of zerkers is out of whack. Frenzy was fine because it had limitations but now with end regen a zerker can spam styles endlessly after having chased down the prey at mach 5 + perma sprint with no end loss. This needs addressing. A zerker has to face a very serious downside which makes them think twice about entering frenzy. At the moment there isn't one.

Having played Mid on 2 servers I know that many zerkers had to make a tough call in the past over when to frenzy and when not. That decision is now irrelevent. End regen + screwed game mechanics regarding LA are putting zerkers into the nerfbat zone bigtime.

No player likes being 2 shot in RvR, least of all a main heavy tank, and that is what is happening. If you can prove to me that a Merc or Bm can 2 shot a warrior then I will eat humble pie and shut up. It is a fact that they can't and how does that get addressed? Do Mythic bump Mercs/Bms to be able to deal the same dmg as zerkers or do they bring zerkers down to Merc/Bm level?

That is the question.

 

[Arnor]

dakey: thx for summing up just what I said

id like to see dirty tricks as a pbaoe myself

And id like to see zerkers be able to melee ppl from 6000 range, but it just aint in the cards is it?


DT is like nearsight for casters, having it pbaoe would be silly, nothing more, nothing less

 

[old.LandShark]

If DT was unresistable, short timered and actually made you fumble every hit, then yeah, having it PBAE would be stupid.
As none of the above is true, then having it PBAE wouldn't exactly generate a 'ffs nerf mercs' situation, now would it...

 

[Conchabar]

There never going to change it go look on the vn boards and if they did ure only way to make them change there mind might be to post on the vn board but im sure this argument has been going on for ages

 

[Kagato.]

Theres not many ways to change it without making it to powerful, 30 seconds is actually longer then alot of duels last or one on one rvr fights, and everytime i've fought a merc who has had DT and used it I havent resisted it yet, still won regardless but it wasn't resisted, and the fights were alot closer for it.

You should be grateful you actually do have a groovy timered ability, its more then some tanks get.

 

[swords]

only thing wrong with it is the timer length...the ability is sound.

i would be happy if it were on a 20 min timer, it would make it more useful personally.

either that or put hamster on 30 min and the triple wield on 30 min also (unless it isnt already)

Using DT i can solo a red con barely if it isnt resisted, which is pretty powerful imho.

 

[-mamba-]

Originally posted by dakeyras

No player likes being 2 shot in RvR, least of all a main heavy tank, and that is what is happening. If you can prove to me that a Merc or Bm can 2 shot a warrior then I will eat humble pie and shut up. It is a fact that they can't and how does that get addressed? Do Mythic bump Mercs/Bms to be able to deal the same dmg as zerkers or do they bring zerkers down to Merc/Bm level?

That is the question.

I'd like to see a zerker 2shot a lvl50 main heavy tank... maybe with very lucky crits vs unbuffed tank with crap resists. I may be gimped because of axe spec 5 lower than the cookie cutter spec but full buffed with 66 LA / 61 axe skill and only +9 quick from items the average hits vs heavy armor tanks are in the range of 300 using MP 16.2 / 4.2 weap, add 100% crit and you're up to 600 dmg. Offhand isn't even worth mentioning.

Ok, sometimes a bit more but people bragging about dmg are mostly giving false information imo, i'd like to see them do such kind of dmg constantly. Out of curiosity did a bit dmg tests with montarloo some time ago, as a record on sitting target:

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/sahokas/montarloo.jpg

This was probably the absolute cap I could ever do and still it would hardly 2shot a buffed tank. Besides, no way u see such hits in normal rvr.

Btw frenzied zerkers wouldnt hurt if ppl used some CC (slam/mezz) on us instead of turning and running, thus inviting us to use the prolly highest dmg style chain in LA spec (from rear). Melee stun is one of the worst enemies of a zerker.

About the original subject..

timer needs reduced, resistability needs to get reduced/eliminated, you can't resist a 10 foot rat. id like to see dirty tricks as a pbaoe myself, both zerkers and bm "specials" have the potential to affect several ppl, so should ours.

agree, maybe give a proc-like chance to make the opponent you hit make fumble his/her next hit?

 

[Rolo]

and everyone over looks the issue that when a zerker goes into zerk mode, hes a sitting duck with no defence capabilities, zerkers are not overpowered, but I admit BMs and Mercs are underpowered..

not to mention the big "kill me" sign that they gain.

 

[Vasconcelos]

Originally posted by K0nah
[......]
both zerkers and bm "specials" have the potential to affect several ppl, so should ours.

Originally posted by Dakeyras

DT isn't a guaranteed 'win' button. It is 'increased' fumbles, not 'guaranteed' fumbles.

Soooo true. So my point is 7 minute timer n unresistable on DT wont make a insta-win button as u will only afect 1 enemy n he wont fumble all his atacks (maybe 50% or so).

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by Arnor2

edit: fingo:


NO we DONT! trust me on this one, the closest duels I have, and most other zerks seem to have the same experience, bm's and mercs.

just because duels are close doesn't mean your styles are the same...

Jelinar (the BM Team lead) did some nice tests with very very similar statted BMs and Zerkers...

the zerker had 40% more damage from his styles. That was the only difference. (oh and the zerker was swinging every 3.5 seconds instead of every 4.2)

Their problem is that in RvR they havent really a role to fill, lw/spearoes outdmg bm's, and polearmsmen(and prolly 2h dudes too) outdmg mercs. In midgard we have nothing better to tear shit up than the zerk.


The problem with zerks came with 1.54 and castable end-regen.
The BIGGEST drawback for zerks was that LA drained HUMOUNGOUS amounts of endurance, and that unstyled we do shit dmg. Thats the problem, and imho it should be fixed, not nerf zerkers or LA or something like that, fix the end-regen and all will be happy.
Do you have any idea of how many who bitched about zerks pre-1.54? didnt think so, there werent any(almost)

I did hehe

Actually I don't want zerkers nerfed... they work... they sacrifice defence for damage and they get it.

All I want is my DW styles to be better than my Slash ones.

(if they could make dirty tricks more than just a parlour trick, or an "I win this duel thankyouverymuch" then it'd be good)

There seems to be a camp of zerkers that are trying to lump BMs and Mercs as 'defensive' because we can spec shield ... it's quite funny really

Mercenaries and Blademasters are meant to be like Berserkers... trade armour for damage... but when your _base weapon_ styles do more damage than your supposedly "advanced" Dual Wield ones... something's not right.

Don't get me wrong, mercs/BMs are not gimped, we're just nothing special.

 

[darbey]

Originally posted by Arnor2




The problem with zerks came with 1.54 and castable end-regen.
The BIGGEST drawback for zerks was that LA drained HUMOUNGOUS amounts of endurance, and that unstyled we do shit dmg. Thats the problem, and imho it should be fixed, not nerf zerkers or LA or something like that, fix the end-regen and all will be happy.
Do you have any idea of how many who bitched about zerks pre-1.54? didnt think so, there werent any(almost)

LOl u are joking right? Did you see the boards when they nerfed the df damage way back? full of whining zerks.

Dekeyras has it summed up if i may quote him

At the start of the game Zerkers were a pretty balanced class who gave up all defence for an uber offence when they went 'hamster'.

What has changed is that zerkers no longer give up all that defence. RA's have created an inbalance with the zerker more so than with any other class. They have been given ways of circumventing the 'balancing' feature of their class.

To be honest im not so sure that the lvl of the spell is the problem here. Ive only played a merc to lvl 24 for a bg trip so not exactly a fountain of knwledge on it , but i remeber the DT was a nightmare for resists, in fact it probably resisted 3 times to every 1 it worked.

 

[Mcdonald]

Having tryed a zerker (L35 on Pryd) I can honestly say that he is more damaging and more fun to play than my merc. If mercs need something is one or more of the following:

i) Lower "increased fumbles" timer

ii) Make it less likely to be resisted

iii) Boost the damage dealt by Dual Wield styles, the zerker double-frost at L35 is more damaging than my twin shadows or even the diamond slash at L50!!

iv) Change the game mechanics behind dual wield/celtic dual so that both weapons always swing all the time (believe me, even with 53dw +Dualist Reflexes I double swing -not hit- roughly 1/2 times, 2/3 at best)

How on earth are mercs supposed to be the tank "damage dealers" of Albion? A polearm arms can beat any merc (although rr plays a great deal in all duels), same for sword-shield ones. So far, from my experience the only tanks that I have no trouble beating are other mercs (result is random.. depends on reflection-hd combo), and *some* palas.

Bottom line? Mercs need some more attention by Mythic...

 

[Kagato.]

How on earth are mercs supposed to be the tank "damage dealers" of Albion? A polearm arms can beat any merc (although rr plays a great deal in all duels),

True, and from a polers perspective mercs have been the easiest fights, but I put that down more to my thrust damage, however I think you'll find polers ARE meant to be the 'damage dealers' of albion, and mercs are the light tanks and caster killers. You'll get through enemy pbt far easier then a poler will in comparison, just like zerkers are mids best caster killers.

 

[Mcdonald]

Well.. you've got a point there. However, how is it possible that I rip Hibbie Heroes apart -2 of them used their moose thingie =)? (3 unexpected duels, I was un-buffed in 2 occasions). It might be the new armor tables but with all the +resist items most weapons are equally effective. Strange...