Determination: biggest mistake mythic ever done?

[infozwerg]

imo remove tank cc: slam and other shield stuns, pf, and every fucking stupid style with snare or stun on it.

and then reduce movement speed by your armor absorb. cant run in plate ffs!

 

[quinthar]

Originally posted by Ekydus
No Mezz/ Det = Better game = Needs more skill = RvR WILL change each trip = More fun

Stuns are fine, Mezz/ Det screws up DAoC royal.

Stuns are fine??

Typical Chanter encounter
Stun
nuke
nuke
nuke
dead

Insta stun.....ummmm dont get me started.

As for the argument about det, prior to getting Det4 or 5 cant remember which I on average spent 75% of my RVR time time mezzed or if I purged it was rooted/stunned the rest.

I'm sorry if the casters dont like it, but Armsman for example have been the laughing stock of daoc for quite some time. Det went some way to address that. Now at least S+S Arms get to hit for feck all after 10-15 secs'ish..

Remove all RA's and people leave the game, remove ae Mez/stun and people dont roll certain chars and may leave, reduce the effect of Det and tanks around wont bother to group with you softie casters.

Sure there is a lot of other options but its about finding a balance, mythic aint found it in a shed loada chars yet.

 

[quinthar]

Originally posted by Garbannoch Nox
instead of 2-3 classes per realm like it is now? not much difference to be honest

determination is the reason why non-det-classes are standing at DL for hours trying to get a group

solution:
- remove determination completely
- reduce max aoe mezz/root delve duration to ~30 secs (no drop-off at the edges). This would mean that an aoe mezz would stick for about 15 secs (considering 50% resists)
- remove ANY form of insta AOE CC
- keep single insta CC

Why not just increase immunity against all forms of CC instead?

There is nothing worse than purging a mez then getting stunned instantly or rooted, imo if you have Purge up and pop it you should get total snare/root/stun immunity for a certain time.

that would effectivly negate the effects of CC assuming you win of course..

 

[quinthar]

Originally posted by censi
All tanks have the same old RA's nowaday.
its amazing the difference in RA's
Like you have an RA that lets u do a Unique Style once every 30 mins for like 10 points for summin. Uber!
and then you have an RA like Det which totally pwns.
Pretty much all tanks are just IP purge Det aom mop and the usuall stuff.
Just reinforces what we already know. Mythic arnt to clued up on the balance of Classes.
Class ability, Realm abilitys, effects of resists, interupts, Rvr landscapes..
Theres many things in DAOC which have needed a radical overhaul for a long time now.
Determination is just one of them.

You mean like insignificant RA's like MoC and Stuff??

Give tanks a break, we've been fucked over for so long its insane..

Now the game seems to be going through a melee phase casters that can do 2400dmg to a tank in several seconds are all upset.

When your busy slagging off det or other cheap RA's remember this, A tank spends RP's for Purge, you pop purge and instantly rooted for the remainder of the fight..when people found the usefulness of Det you cant hardly expect them to take calls for removing Det sitting down..

 

[quinthar]

Originally posted by Eleasias
what is the purpose of heavy tanks when det is removed? absolutely nothing. light tanks outdamage them, and hybrids are as good for guarding EXCEPT they get ranged dmg / chants / auras / whatever. im not surprised every caster wants det removed since everyone who played the game remembers what it was back then... caster easy mode, 3-4 shotting tanks, tanks being easy cannonfodder, heavy tanks mezzed for 1 min, then rooted for 1 min, while doing absolutely nothing etc. atleast casters and hybrids have SOME use when rooted, heavy tanks have none.

Oouu dont for get our leet 30-40dmg Xbow...you dont do us justice

 

[Fagane]

X-Bow of arms does desent dammage if specced high, much better then a regular pole swing.

Not claiming you should spec x-bow, but a fact is an arms can do something if specced right.

Fagane

 

[Belomar]

Originally posted by quinthar
You mean like insignificant RA's like MoC and Stuff??

Ahh, yet another clueless tank, how refreshing. First of all, tell me what is hidden under your magical "Stuff" RA that you mention? Anything earth-shattering, like GP, Purge, BoF, Ichor, PR, or SoS that some caster class gets that can tip the scales in a fight? Oooh, BAoD would be great if it wasn't for the fact that it's useless against tank groups.

And secondly, the full cost for MoC is 24 points, 1 point more than IP used to cost for full tanks before they were given cheap RAs. This is pretty damn expensive, given that it only gives you 15 seconds of "carefree" casting every 30 mins (all casters know that you will have to spend 10 more points on purge in order to not waste MoC when you are inevitably slammed once you pop it).

Give tanks a break, we've been fucked over for so long its insane..

Whine some more, tanks stopped being fucked over once RAs were introduced, and even more so when spellcrafting came along. That's not an insane amount of time, that's a LONG time ago.

Now the game seems to be going through a melee phase casters that can do 2400dmg to a tank in several seconds are all upset.

Sure, it's overpowering to be able to do 2k damage in "several" seconds. On the other hand, said tank with 2k hitpoints (not to forget IP) running at you with speed 6 will reach you within 2 to 3 casts of any spell, regardless of buffs. There is no way a caster will be able to drop you in that time, and once you're up close, it's all over. Besides, in 75% of the cases, the caster will have been interrupted anyway, losing 5 seconds of valuable casting time to a stupid interrupt timer. So yes, of course we are upset, braino, our so-called "range advantage" accounts for nearly nothing these days.

Oh, and don't forget that "modern" tanks do well over 2k damage in your "several" seconds, much more than the average caster (barring self-debuffers) can do.

 

[hotrat]

All you people saying casters were ovwerpowered before det, and SC, or even epic armor well you clearly didn't play a ice theurgist or a matter cabalist.
Everyone had capped cold resist, even before epic armor, and I could create an army of earth pets for them to just be mezzed or confused and made useless. Cabalist couldn't even stack his dot's before, 100 dmg a tic wow.

The only casters that were really overpowered were hib ones, they could pretty much kill any class during the 9 sec baseline stun they had.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Eleasias
what is the purpose of heavy tanks when det is removed? absolutely nothing. light tanks outdamage them, and hybrids are as good for guarding EXCEPT they get ranged dmg / chants / auras / whatever. im not surprised every caster wants det removed since everyone who played the game remembers what it was back then... caster easy mode, 3-4 shotting tanks, tanks being easy cannonfodder, heavy tanks mezzed for 1 min, then rooted for 1 min, while doing absolutely nothing etc. atleast casters and hybrids have SOME use when rooted, heavy tanks have none.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If all classes got det a heavy tank would still be nice in a group, instead of running with say 3 bm's (offence) 1 hero (guarder) 2 druids 1 bard and 1 warden you could swap one of the bm's for a champion (loads of interupting/snaring stuff).

Its just so annoying atm to see such little variation in groups, not so much with hib as they have GP but definately in mid, they so rarely run with casters anymore.

 

[quinthar]

Originally posted by Fagane
X-Bow of arms does desent dammage if specced high, much better then a regular pole swing.

Not claiming you should spec x-bow, but a fact is an arms can do something if specced right.

Fagane

lol if spec'd right???

How do you spec right for xbow if you dont spec xbow...


I'm sorry but speccing anything in xbow takes away from the piddling amount you have in other things, dbl speccing is a joke triple speccing is feckin insane.

 

[old.Ramas]

then healers/bards would need qc of some sort cause atm a sorc beats healers/bards for range/casting speed.

This assumes that priest classes should be equal in spellcasting ability with cloth classes, which is a argument that can be made but not one I agree with, but we've done that thread

you think a healer running speed5+sprint will get a casted aoe mezz off before a sorc?

Bolt range just moves the setup, if it occurs at max range, to 'whomever sees the other first'.

The 375 extra range is < 1 second travel time at speed 5, <2 and tank speed, and quickcast is speed capped, even if normal casting isn't. I'm sure it's a help - it's something hib/mid don't have - but it's not that big a deal.

Oh, and don't forget that "modern" tanks do well over 2k damage in your "several" seconds, much more than the average caster (barring self-debuffers) can do.

This, I suspect, is where the real problem lies.

Even the Mythic TL feeback regularly says things like "casters have potential to do lots more damage than tanks if the enemy let them cast". And the thing is, that's simply not true today, single target DDs are less effective than melee (barring debuff nukers) and no aoe effects which might multiply magic damage up are worth a damn anymore. Mythic have even said they believe ranged-aoedd to be a useful spell.

An interesting effect of this was something I noticed when getting my Cabalist's medal of valour at lvl 41.

I was expecting to die *a lot* in RvR at that level (espeicially with the 'everyone is yellow' patch). Instead I found I didn't really die much at all unless my group was wiped? Why? Because everyone was able to ignore me, I'd stand at the back, happily dotting, lifetapping, and nearsighting away, but it seems not really ever appearing to be enough of a threat to make it worth attacking me.

The number of times a tank would run straight past me to engage another tank was bizarre.

Clearly this is very different to my experience as a cleric where I could be standing 1000 back from my group and the good hibgard groups will still attempt to target me first.

 

[Asha]

Surely there is some point between how things were before cheap tank RAs and now? I still think Mythic haven’t tested things at high realm ranks…how can a savage at RR8 be balance? It’s unstoppable. I suppose the same thought really applies to all high det tanks.

MOC is NOT an answer to det. First of all because it costs loads, and you really need purge and RP to use it effectively. You need RP because MCL sucks in a situation where you would use MOC…that is from a cleric pov because often MoC is used for rezzes or spread heals and power goes v fast then. The other thing is that it’s a 15 second RA on 30 min timer… come on. It’s nothing like det.

The problem as I see it is that det IS balanced if you’re low rr vs low rr. You can’t have high det and purge at lower RRs. Once you get higher then it is no longer balanced. Maybe the answer is to make low lvls of det cheap as they are now and then make additional levels VERY expensive or even non-existant. Det 2 or 3 isn’t so bad. Det 5 is just a joke. 80% immunity to casters defenses 100% of the time is NOT fair.

 

[Asha]

PS... if reavers can't have det then savages shouldn't either. I really think they shouldn't.

 

[quinthar]

Originally posted by Belomar
Ahh, yet another clueless tank, how refreshing. First of all, tell me what is hidden under your magical "Stuff" RA that you mention? Anything earth-shattering, like GP, Purge, BoF, Ichor, PR, or SoS that some caster class gets that can tip the scales in a fight? Oooh, BAoD would be great if it wasn't for the fact that it's useless against tank groups.

"Yet another clueless tank" - How original!

In actually fact I was refering to some of these RA's which are usefull but perhaps not for soloing casters...my response regarding these was to the Hib that posted them, I dont know too many casters that solo therefore the reference to RA's that can turn a fight were group related and not specifically caster RA's only.

Whine some more, tanks stopped being fucked over once RAs were introduced, and even more so when spellcrafting came along. That's not an insane amount of time, that's a LONG time ago.Sure, it's overpowering to be able to do 2k damage in "several" seconds. On the other hand, said tank with 2k hitpoints (not to forget IP) running at you with speed 6 will reach you within 2 to 3 casts of any spell, regardless of buffs. There is no way a caster will be able to drop you in that time, and once you're up close, it's all over. Besides, in 75% of the cases, the caster will have been interrupted anyway, losing 5 seconds of valuable casting time to a stupid interrupt timer. So yes, of course we are upset, braino, our so-called "range advantage" accounts for nearly nothing these days.

I'm responding to the surge to get our RA's removed, the major defining RA you refer to is Determination, that is pretty much the sole thing that stopped us being screwed over so much. IP aint so great when your stunned or mezzed for two weeks.

Det allows us to actually use the RA's we can get albeit cheaply, kill Det and you kill the rest of the active RA's.

You can have 100 points of RA's and if your mezzed for 1+ min they are worth naff all, so me harping on about the determination is clueless? ookkk..

Since you refer to a tank bearing in on you at speed6 and not taking him/her down, erm, are you refering to you being a caster group or something and that not working anymore against tank groups? if not then where are your tanks with their cheap RA's and det?

Oh, and don't forget that "modern" tanks do well over 2k damage in your "several" seconds, much more than the average caster (barring self-debuffers) can do.

Are you refering to Alb tanks/casters or other realms tanks/casters my Alb pure tank would love to be able to do that dmg in several secs but I dont have a light sabre.

I always thought Mez and root and stun was to buy time not to turn the entire tide of the game by keeping a target imobile for an entire fight.

 

[mehuge]

How can det be over powered?

For it to be useful, cc had to have been cast in the first place. So, if only det tanks gets cc'd and all are free within 10 seconds then omg, your left with both sides with all their characters activly in the fight, after a 10 second advantage to the other side.

Humm... How is that overpowered?

In reality, not all tanks det will kick in within the 10 seconds and some other non-det chars are still cc'd, so if you get cc in first, your still on top regardless of det. Det only give back to the cc'd group some chance wining the fight.

BTW, If you aint got det, don't get cc'd.

 

[quinthar]

Originally posted by Asha
Surely there is some point between how things were before cheap tank RAs and now? I still think Mythic haven?t tested things at high realm ranks?how can a savage at RR8 be balance? It?s unstoppable. I suppose the same thought really applies to all high det tanks.

MOC is NOT an answer to det. First of all because it costs loads, and you really need purge and RP to use it effectively. You need RP because MCL sucks in a situation where you would use MOC?that is from a cleric pov because often MoC is used for rezzes or spread heals and power goes v fast then. The other thing is that it?s a 15 second RA on 30 min timer? come on. It?s nothing like det.

The problem as I see it is that det IS balanced if you?re low rr vs low rr. You can?t have high det and purge at lower RRs. Once you get higher then it is no longer balanced. Maybe the answer is to make low lvls of det cheap as they are now and then make additional levels VERY expensive or even non-existant. Det 2 or 3 isn?t so bad. Det 5 is just a joke. 80% immunity to casters defenses 100% of the time is NOT fair.

I never said MOC was an answer to det, my comment was taken out of context, if casters are complaining because they are choosing to run around solo and not stand a chance against tanks then thats not my problem, my comment refered to MOC as being insignificant which it is not...

My point stands, all 3 sides have tanks that have access to cheap det why should it be the casters sole responsibility to stop tanks and keep them out of the game for 1+ mins, if you are talking about a fg vs a fg surely mez is not such a big issue? with the exception of perhaps insta CC?

The way I see it is that the melee classes are starting to have fun in the game again, probably due to det but certainly because they can actually take part in the fight now. lose or frig det and you go back to caster groups again, oh what fun...

 

[Fagane]

Originally posted by quinthar
lol if spec'd right???

How do you spec right for xbow if you dont spec xbow...


I'm sorry but speccing anything in xbow takes away from the piddling amount you have in other things, dbl speccing is a joke triple speccing is feckin insane.

And so YOU make the choice of being ineffective at range. So its YOUR own fault if you stand fir 30sec doing nothing in combat. All casters also need to make choices what spells they want, and in what they want to be good.

And give me 1 good reason that does not count the oppesite for a cloth caster why determination is good as it is? A cloth caster is MORE screwed when he/she gets mezzed. No time to cast any spells till the melee is in melee range, and then being dead most likely before the first spell can go off.

People did choose classes at the start of the game, melee did make the choice to be "bad" at range, "good" at melee, casters made the choice of being "good" at range, "bad" at melee. This RA changes everything to:

Tanks are UBER at melee, and GOOD at range. Casters are DEAD in melee and BAD at range.

Give me 1 good reason why Determination should have a cost of:
1-2-3-6-10
While any other passive RA got:
1-3-6-10

Give me any reason why all passive RAs give 3 or 5% bonus, except determination, what gives 15% bonus?

There is no logical reason except that the tanks got UBER buffed, while casters got UBER nerfed. Its even so bad, that a lot of people leave (left) DAoC or no longer RvR.

Its atm:

Dark Age of Tank Alot

Fagane

 

[Qte Eth]

some good points there Garb

and well i am wondering why melee stun isnt affected by anything ,resists or determiantion , what did they meant by this ,why 4 sec melee stun last 2x longer then 11 sec castable one?

 

[Rollie]

Originally posted by Asha
PS... if reavers can't have det then savages shouldn't either. I really think they shouldn't.

Reavers without determine are still an excellent class and very powerful, in both groups and small numbers and even solo.(whyp/night/justinian running odins in a 3man group are extremely gard to beat if they are in an environment that benefits them)

Edited to help belomar understand the post easier

You take tank ra's from a savage and what are you left with

a class that doesnt have tanks ra's, brings nothing to the group to compensate for this, cannot guard people, has no group or ranged abilities.

Give a reaver tank RA's and you would definately have the best tank in game BY FAR. You cannot compare reaver to a savage they are two totally different classes.

 

[Fagane]

Originally posted by Qte Eth
some good points there Garb

and well i am wondering why melee stun isnt affected by anything ,resists or determiantion , what did they meant by this ,why 4 sec melee stun last 2x longer then 11 sec castable one?

Its somewhere on vnboards by the TLs. Melee stun/root etc is not effected by Determ. Mythic knows it, and will look into it in a future patch, but not 1.65.

Fagane

 

[Qte Eth]

well savage got determination and became best tank ingame so your point?

 

[Rollie]

Originally posted by Qte Eth
well savage got determination and became best tank ingame so your point?

there is a big difference between savage atm and giving a reaver tank RA's etc, this is proven that without tank ra's reavers are an extremely solid class borderline overpowered but i think the fact they dont have tank RA's keeps the nerf reavers cries to a minimum.

A savage without tank ra's would find it harder to get groups than a thane, since thanes can at least guard.

 

[Belomar]

Originally posted by Rollie
You take tank ra's from a savage, you have a class that doesnt have tanks ra's

No shit?

 

[Rollie]

Originally posted by Belomar
No shit?

Hey belo this is the 9th/10th time you have jumped into a post to make a comment on somthing ive said, problem........?

You might wanna quote the entire text instead of selective quoting to try and make a point

Each time you have jumped into a post to have a go/pick a fault/make a childish remark you have fell flat on your face, since they arent actual errors you are highlighting you just have a grudge against me

Get over it

 

[infozwerg]

if casters are complaining because they are choosing to run around solo and not stand a chance against tanks

casters that choose to play in fg with good support are still at a disadvantage against random tanks.

if you are talking about a fg vs a fg surely mez is not such a big issue?

stupid n00b

 

[quinthar]

Originally posted by Fagane
And so YOU make the choice of being ineffective at range. So its YOUR own fault if you stand fir 30sec doing nothing in combat. All casters also need to make choices what spells they want, and in what they want to be good.

And give me 1 good reason that does not count the oppesite for a cloth caster why determination is good as it is? A cloth caster is MORE screwed when he/she gets mezzed. No time to cast any spells till the melee is in melee range, and then being dead most likely before the first spell can go off.

People did choose classes at the start of the game, melee did make the choice to be "bad" at range, "good" at melee, casters made the choice of being "good" at range, "bad" at melee. This RA changes everything to:

Tanks are UBER at melee, and GOOD at range. Casters are DEAD in melee and BAD at range.

Give me 1 good reason why Determination should have a cost of:
1-2-3-6-10
While any other passive RA got:
1-3-6-10

Give me any reason why all passive RAs give 3 or 5% bonus, except determination, what gives 15% bonus?

There is no logical reason except that the tanks got UBER buffed, while casters got UBER nerfed. Its even so bad, that a lot of people leave (left) DAoC or no longer RvR.

Its atm:

Dark Age of Tank Alot

Fagane

Sigh, tanks are not uber at melee, some classes might be better than others but the armsman for example is not.

You are the first person I have ever seen state that "Armsman" by the tank association is UBER, Ive played one from 1-50 plus a few lvls of RVR and Uber is not a name I see come up a lot.

If you want to remove Det from the game remove all forms of mez full stop.

I suspect the reason why Det is so cheap is because Tanks would never get enough RP's to buy a plastic bag, they would be mezzed the entire fight, I wonder if casters would be getting upset if the S+S tanks that were supposed to be protecting them were out of the fight from the outset. Only Mythic can really tell us why its so cheap, I suspect the words Tabks/fighting chance would be in there somewhere.

You'll never get casters and Tanks to agree on this, you say its overpowered Tanks say its there to fight the insane aoe mez castable or otherwise that is in the game.

To be quite honest I'd be quite happy for all RA's to be removed peopel constantly seem to whine about them, let casters manage without serenty and mcl, tanks can do without IP or purge MoP etc who needs VP and BoF. I wonder how the FG's would fair..

As for people leaving the game I wont speculate to what peoples reasons are I've only seen a few reasons and I dont see many that say its because of Det.

 

[hotrat]

Reavers may have guard and protect and the nice pbae chants but they dont have 360 degree evade and evade buff and evade 4 and self end regen and self haste and the ability to quad hit.
Savage and reaver are similar in ability except one has det so is fotm the other doesnt so isn't fotm.
If reavers had Det I dunno but maybe they would be fotm.

And ROFL to all the people saying that if you remove det the game is back to casters pwning. HOW DO YOU THINK IT IS NOW FOR GROUPS WHO RUN WITHOUT DET TANKS? example reaver, paladin, minstrel, sorc, cleric, cleric, theurgist, friar. Perfectly good group before det, now no longer good cus det is so overpowered.

 

[Asha]

Originally posted by mehuge
How can det be over powered?

For it to be useful, cc had to have been cast in the first place. So, if only det tanks gets cc'd and all are free within 10 seconds then omg, your left with both sides with all their characters activly in the fight, after a 10 second advantage to the other side.

Humm... How is that overpowered?

In reality, not all tanks det will kick in within the 10 seconds and some other non-det chars are still cc'd, so if you get cc in first, your still on top regardless of det. Det only give back to the cc'd group some chance wining the fight.

BTW, If you aint got det, don't get cc'd.

Whaaaaa?

How are you left with both sides with ALL their characters active when healers/casters/hybrids are stuck mezzed until they are ganged by 3 or even 4 det tanks? When my cleric gets attacked by 3 savages I have barely enough time to fire MoC and try to rez the other cleric or to heal myself until MoC and instas run out.

Before det it was whoever (normal Stungard) got the CC in first. The other side was left standing around until they were stunned and killed one by one. Now – ok – it’s more balanced in that all sides have tanks free. However it isn’t balanced INSIDE the realms because non-det classes except the ones you NEED for a group (sorc cleric mincer pala for Albion) are worthless right now. The exception might be reaver, but I haven’t played with one so I am not sure yet.

Don’t get cc’ed… you sound like someone who has never rvr’ed.

 

[Asha]

Originally posted by quinthar
I never said MOC was an answer to det, my comment was taken out of context, if casters are complaining because they are choosing to run around solo and not stand a chance against tanks then thats not my problem, my comment refered to MOC as being insignificant which it is not...

My point stands, all 3 sides have tanks that have access to cheap det why should it be the casters sole responsibility to stop tanks and keep them out of the game for 1+ mins, if you are talking about a fg vs a fg surely mez is not such a big issue? with the exception of perhaps insta CC?

The way I see it is that the melee classes are starting to have fun in the game again, probably due to det but certainly because they can actually take part in the fight now. lose or frig det and you go back to caster groups again, oh what fun...

I wasn’t really addressing you but the general opinion that MoC is an answer to det.

Yes all 3 sides have det tanks… that isn’t the point. The point is ppl have have casters and hybrids for a long time and now these characters are useless in rvr groups. When was the last time you saw a Runemaster? When was the last time you lost to a group with a runie in it? It’s not that there is inbalance between realms (with the exception of the savage) its an imbalance inside the realms.

And btw if casters don’t stop tanks then who is going to??? The mezzed paladin and reaver? Have you ever tried to slam a savage? An albion group can only afford one shield armsman – is he supposed to slam all 3 or 4 savages? CC is Crowd CONTROL….

There has to be a balance somewhere between caster groups and tank groups. Mythic are just incompetent and can’t find it.

 

[Asha]

Originally posted by Rollie
Reavers without determine are still an excellent class and very powerful, in both groups and small numbers and even solo.(whyp/night/justinian running odins in a 3man group are extremely gard to beat if they are in an environment that benefits them)

3 man group … yeah as long as they don’t run into a competent healer or bard. If a 3 man group with a healer losses to 2 reavers and a paladin, then the healer sucks. Insta stun, cast mez, assist to death. If more than one has purge up then ofc it’s more difficult, but mids should still win.

You take tank ra's from a savage and what are you left with

a class that doesnt have tanks ra's, brings nothing to the group to compensate for this, cannot guard people, has no group or ranged abilities.

OH you mean like a friar? Or like a champion? Or maybe like a dead caster? It’s group ability is it’s incredible dmg output, it’s two types of dmg, it’s huge defensive attributes. Right now you can’t hit them, you can’t cc them, you can’t run from them, you can’t out heal their dmg.

Give a reaver tank RA's and you would definately have the best tank in game BY FAR. You cannot compare reaver to a savage they are two totally different classes.

I never said give det to reavers. That doesn't solve anything and yes it would be v overpowered. It would be close with savages, dunno which would be more over powered. They aren’t two totally different classes either. A savage is a hybrid because it has abilities like end heal and other chants that make it very different from other light tanks. It’s a hybrid with tank ras just because it’s chants use life instead of power. And life seems to me much easier to regen than power – esp with a 3 healer 1 shammie group !

 

[Rollie]

Originally posted by Asha



OH you mean like a friar? Or like a champion? Or maybe like a dead caster? It’s group ability is it’s incredible dmg output, it’s two types of dmg, it’s huge defensive attributes. Right now you can’t hit them, you can’t cc them, you can’t run from them, you can’t out heal their dmg.

friar, heals/buffs, champion, debuffs/snare etc, take tank ra's away and what does it bring to a group to choose it instead of a warrior/zerk? nothing, friars can heal/tank/buff/rez champs can slam, do decent damage, debuff, interupt, snare. Fact of the matter is take tank ra's away from them and they offer nothing to a group.

Originally posted by Asha
I never said give det to reavers. That doesn't solve anything and yes it would be v overpowered. It would be close with savages, dunno which would be more over powered. They aren’t two totally different classes either. A savage is a hybrid because it has abilities like end heal and other chants that make it very different from other light tanks. It’s a hybrid with tank ras just because it’s chants use life instead of power. And life seems to me much easier to regen than power – esp with a 3 healer 1 shammie group ! [/B]

Ok first off, gimme a break, give tank ra's to a reaver and it would close to a savage? ill assume you mean by far more overpowered than a savage, reavers do EXCELLENT damage as well as having slam/chain/lifetaps/abs debuff and multiple other cool things.

They are 2 totally different classes? savage is a duel wielding, light armored light tank who's main purpose is just pure damage dealing hence why they have zero group abilities. Reavers wear chain, use shields can easily guard/protect/intercept support, cannot spec 2h weps or use 2 weps at the same time, they use piety as a measure of how muc power they have and have multiple spells they can use from range. To me that pretty much indicates 2 totally seperate classes.